Did Jesus drink a cup of wrath or suffering?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace' started by Matthew G. Bianco, Aug 7, 2018.

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  1. Matthew G. Bianco

    Matthew G. Bianco Puritan Board Freshman

    I was listening this video by an Arminian who tried to “refute” the doctrine of penal substitution.

    One of his arguments is that the “cup” Jesus mentioned in Luke 22:42 is not a cup of God’s wrath poured out against sin, but merely the physical suffering He would endure at his crucifixion.
    His support of this was to look at Matthew 20:22-23 where Jesus said that the two sons would indeed drink the cup themselves. He argued that if the cup means God’s wrath poured out against sin, then that would mean the two sons will undergo God’s wrath for sin - ergo, they’re unsaved.

    What do you make of this argument?

    Start the video at 23:40:
     
  2. Ryan&Amber2013

    Ryan&Amber2013 Puritan Board Junior

    I didn't watch the video clip, but I remember asking our pastor a similar question.

    From what I understand, the reference to the cup goes back to the OT: "For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup with foaming wine, well mixed, and he pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs." As far as I know, Jesus was the One who drank this cup on our behalf, so we wouldn't have to, which would be the doctrine of penal substitution.

    As far as the Matthew verse, I think he said there might be multiple meanings going on at the same time, but I can't really remember. We'll leave that to the better brains on here.
     
  3. Jack K

    Jack K Puritan Board Professor

    The error in the argument is this: it assumes that if Jesus "drinks from the cup" and his disciples somehow share in it, this must mean both experiences are identical.

    But Scripture teaches that we share much with Christ, and yet our experiences are not identical. For instance:
    - We will share in Christ's glory. But his glory includes being worshiped in heaven, even though we will not be worshiped there.
    - We share in Christ's sonship. But he is the eternally begotten Son, even though we are merely adopted sons.
    - And pertinent to this passage... We share in Christ's sufferings. But he suffered the wrath of God for sin, even though we suffer only what the world dishes out.

    If our sharing in Christ's glory or in his sonship is so different from his experience of the same, I think we can safely say our cup of suffering may be different too—even though in some sense we might speak of sharing the same cup.
     
  4. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    First, this man is not an Arminian he is a heretic. I have NEVER heard an Arminian say that Christ did not bear God's wrath for our sins. They believe he did, but that we have to add a little to our salvation. Anyway, that's what the Arminians I know believe.

    This man is confused about what the Reformed believe. One example is that he says we believe that Christ became sinful on the cross. That is not what we believe. We believe what the Bible says, 2 Cor 5:21 "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." He absolutely denies this Scripture either because he's never read it, or because he denies parts of Scripture, or he has some weird interpretation of it. I listened to his whole video and he's so confused and ignorant of truth I don't know where to start.

    Matthew 20:22-23 doesn't say what your link to Matthew 20:22-23 says. Matthew 20:22-23 actually says, "Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.” 23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father." which is the verse this man uses. However, if he had gone to Mark 10:38, he would have seen that Jesus also includes a baptism in this. Mark 10:38 "Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” 39 And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, 40 but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.".

    The cup in Luke 22:42 is the cup of God's wrath (Isaiah 53:4-5). The cup in Matthew/Mark is the cup of suffering that we must endure in order to receive a crown (James 1:12 and Luke 9:23) and the baptism in Mark is death in Christ (Romans 6:4). We share in this cup and baptism through Christ (for we are in Christ) in that we suffer (taking up our cross) and are buried (our old nature put to death in order to receive a new creation) in order to receive the crown of life in the end.
     
  5. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    When the OT prophets mentioned that there was being stored up by God cups/bowls of wrath, they were indeed the wrath of god to be unleashed for punishment of sins being commited against Holy God.
    Jesus in His humanity was recoiling against Himself taking on those sins, as He knew would cause seperation from the heavenly Father for that time as He became the Sin Bearer.
     
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