"Dare To Be A Daniel" REALLY?? REALLY??

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N. Eshelman

Puritan Board Senior
I would call this song a good moral song about somebody of godly chracter, but not a hymn.

Is it a bad song? No. But since it's not primarily about God, I wouldn't deem it appropriate for Sunday worship.

I don't think that it's a BAD song either. Worship? No.
 

athanatos

Puritan Board Freshman
It seems needless; why not simply imitate Christ?-instead of daring to be like Daniel. (Good alliteration though! :up:)

Going by that line of reasoning, let's add a hymn about Pergy, or Livingstone, or William Carey, or... :)
Why not simply imitate Christ? Paul says imitate HIM, as HE imitates Christ. Not that imitating Christ is wrong; it does mean, however, that people who obediently imitate Christ are models for us too.

And honestly, while I would not require it, if someone wants to make a song about Pergamum or Livingstone or Carey or St. Paul, that's OK, provided it actually rocks.



---------- Post added at 07:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------


Meanwhile, I don't really care too much for the tune. And the lyric

"Dare to stand alone!
Dare to have a purpose firm!
Dare to make it known."

Seem like they could be taken out of context and misapplied without much difficulty, especially for a Scripturally ignorant congregation.
 

he beholds

Puritan Board Doctor
Those most concerned about such preaching and hymnody stress the redemptive God centered theme of the Bible and the need to see Him (not David, Abraham, Moses, et. al.) as the hero of every Old Testament narrative.

This is exactly what I was going to say; thankfully you did it first and more clearly than I ever could have.
 

Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
I don't recall ever singing this song, but it could have happened in VBS or Sunday School at some point.

I don't have a old Trinity Hymnal handy. But as I recall, a section toward the back included hymns that the editors thought were perhaps better suited for special meetings, etc. instead of stated worship services. It's listed as Hymn #660 on the OPC page. If my memory is correct, then this would be in that section. (It's possible I'm thinking of the Baptist version of the Trinity Hymnal instead or some other hymnal entirely.) But there is no such section in the updated (red) Trinity Hymnal, which as noted also includes this hymn.

Interestingly, Hymns of Grace and Glory (FPCNA) has the song, but it's only the chorus and it's classified under "Children." That's a hymnal that many would consider (or expect) to be more populist and fundamentalist than the Trinity Hymnal. What is more, if hymnary.org is correct, it is not included in the 1991 and 2008 (Southern) Baptist Hymnals. (No doubt it would have other objectionable hymns.) It's not included in the Celebration Hymnal either.
 

yoyoceramic

Puritan Board Freshman
Dare to be an exilic, stiff-necked Israel had too many syllables. It was a pragmatic decision guys, lighten up. :banana:
 

jeffm05

Puritan Board Freshman
Can someone explain how the central message of this song is appropriate for Christian worship? I know that I am a psalm singer, but even if I was a hymn singer, I think that I would have a difficult time singing this song, even though it's out of a very orthodox hymnal.

The song is in the section of the hymnal titled "Children's Hymns." In fact Children's Hymns is written at the top of the page.

From the preface of the Blue Trinity hymnal:

These hymns were chosen to meet the various needs of the people of God, from the simplest informal services in the home among the smallest children to the most solemn occasions in the life of the church.
 

Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
Can someone explain how the central message of this song is appropriate for Christian worship? I know that I am a psalm singer, but even if I was a hymn singer, I think that I would have a difficult time singing this song, even though it's out of a very orthodox hymnal.

The song is in the section of the hymnal titled "Children's Hymns." In fact Children's Hymns is written at the top of the page.

From the preface of the Blue Trinity hymnal:

These hymns were chosen to meet the various needs of the people of God, from the simplest informal services in the home among the smallest children to the most solemn occasions in the life of the church.

Thanks for posting that as it proves that I didn't dream it up! In the 1990 revised Trinity Hymnal (red) there is no corresponding section and this hymn is listed in the section "The Christian Life: Christian Warfare."
 

N. Eshelman

Puritan Board Senior
Can someone explain how the central message of this song is appropriate for Christian worship? I know that I am a psalm singer, but even if I was a hymn singer, I think that I would have a difficult time singing this song, even though it's out of a very orthodox hymnal.

The song is in the section of the hymnal titled "Children's Hymns." In fact Children's Hymns is written at the top of the page.

From the preface of the Blue Trinity hymnal:

These hymns were chosen to meet the various needs of the people of God, from the simplest informal services in the home among the smallest children to the most solemn occasions in the life of the church.

Thanks for posting that as it proves that I didn't dream it up! In the 1990 revised Trinity Hymnal (red) there is no corresponding section and this hymn is listed in the section "The Christian Life: Christian Warfare."

I see.

Does this mean that it is not appropriate for worship then? What does "children's hymns" mean?

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 PM ----------

I mean, I see that they are hymns for children- but does that mean that they are not to be used in Christian worship? Are they Sunday School songs?

Is there a "senior citizens' hymns" section? ;)
 

Jack K

Puritan Board Professor
What does "children's hymns" mean?

In this matter I stand with the Trinity Hymnal. If part of the hymnal's purpose is to include well-loved hymns of the church, then it's good to include some that have for years been well-loved by children and put them in a hymnal intended for use by the entire church. Our kids count, too.
 

JonathanHunt

Puritan Board Senior
I'd agree with the line that it is a good moral song. Not a hymn. We used to sing it, as children, around the piano on a Sunday night. To me, that is this song's place in the grand scheme of things. Certainly not in the public worship of God.
 

Andrew P.C.

Puritan Board Junior
If Hebrews 11 lists several people that were people of faith and the idea is that we should emulate these people in our own journey, it certainly is not wrong to honor any of God's elect who have stood fast for the faith, especially those who have given their lives for it.

It's interesting that the entire song's focus is upon Daniel's band. Here's the thing for me: we come and gather together on sunday to worship God. God is the center of our worship. He alone is the subject/focus of our dialogue with Him on the Lord's day. Why would we "all hail" daniel's band? Why would we sing of men who are "mighty... great and tall"? We should be singing about God who strengthens these men to stand everyday.

It's in a hymnal that is used for worship on the Lord's day... and that's what kills it for me.
 

Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
Can someone explain how the central message of this song is appropriate for Christian worship? I know that I am a psalm singer, but even if I was a hymn singer, I think that I would have a difficult time singing this song, even though it's out of a very orthodox hymnal.

The song is in the section of the hymnal titled "Children's Hymns." In fact Children's Hymns is written at the top of the page.

From the preface of the Blue Trinity hymnal:

These hymns were chosen to meet the various needs of the people of God, from the simplest informal services in the home among the smallest children to the most solemn occasions in the life of the church.

Thanks for posting that as it proves that I didn't dream it up! In the 1990 revised Trinity Hymnal (red) there is no corresponding section and this hymn is listed in the section "The Christian Life: Christian Warfare."

I see.

Does this mean that it is not appropriate for worship then? What does "children's hymns" mean?

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 PM ----------

I mean, I see that they are hymns for children- but does that mean that they are not to be used in Christian worship? Are they Sunday School songs?

Is there a "senior citizens' hymns" section? ;)


To get an answer to those questions, you'd have to ask the editors (or the revision cmte in the case of the red book.) I think it is not unimaginable that one could ask such a question and get at least an unofficial answer from one of them. But if they know you are RP they may think you're just a troublemaker. ;)

My guess is that songs in a "Childrens" section are probably best suited for Vacation Bible School or Sunday School. But in that case, do they have to be in the hymnal? I dunno. At least the original had them set off in a different section, noting that they are best suited for occasions outside of regular worship. My recollection is that we never sang from the Children's section of the red hymnal at the PCA or OPC congregations that I attended regularly in the past, neither of which had a significant number of small children. (I doubt that would have made a difference one way or another, at least not in those particular congregations.) But at the OPC we did get somewhat edgy and sang "El Shaddai" on occasion during Sunday evening worship. Now that I recall it, during the evening worship at the OPC congregation, there were usually about 3 hymns in which members of the congregation chose what to sing. I wonder if "Dare to Be a Daniel" has ever been requested at that time?

I can think of some songs that might qualify for a "senior citizens" section, but that probably has more to do with the preferences (and past experiences) of some who are presently of that age. :)
 

Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
I believe if anyone were to stir up trouble in their church due to the "offense" of hearing "Dare to be a Daniel" sung, the bigger issue might not be song choice and the RPW but the attitude of the complainer.
 
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