Cyprian of Carthage on gladiatorial games

[Reformed Covenanter]

The world is soaked with mutual blood, and when individuals commit homicide, it is a crime; it is called a virtue when it is done in the name of the state. Impunity is acquired for crimes not by reason of innocence but by the magnitude of the cruelty.

Now if you turn your eyes and face toward the cities themselves, you will find a multitude sadder than any solitude. A gladitorial combat is being prepared that blood may delight the lust of cruel eyes. The body is filled up with stronger foods, and the robust mass of flesh grows fat with bulging muscles, so that fattened for punishment it may perish more dearly. Man is killed for the pleasure of man, and to be able to kill is a skill, is an employment, is an art. Crime is not only committed but is taught. What can be called more inhuman, what more repulsive? It is a training that one may be able to kill, and that he kills is a glory. ...

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Cyprian of Carthage on gladiatorial games

The world is soaked with mutual blood, and when individuals commit homicide, it is a crime; it is called a virtue when it is done in the name of the state. Impunity is acquired for crimes not by re…

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[Blood-Bought Pilgrim]

What are people's thoughts on how/if this applies to MMA today? I do BJJ, and so I've become interested in MMA because of the grappling aspects of the sport, but sometimes I wonder if it is glorifying violence in an unhealthy way.

Thoughts?

 

[jwithnell]

@NM_Presby How is Cyprian's refutation of the practices of the Roman societal and political state a commendation for anything one might pursue today? Would extracting MMA and BJJ from their abbreviations shed any light on your position?

 

[Blood-Bought Pilgrim]

@NM_Presby How is Cyprian's refutation of the practices of the Roman societal and political state a commendation for anything one might pursue today? Would extracting MMA and BJJ from their abbreviations shed any light on your position?

MMA is mixed martial arts-- fighting in a cage. BJJ is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, a grappling sport.

 

[pgwolv]

What are people's thoughts on how/if this applies to MMA today? I do BJJ, and so I've become interested in MMA because of the grappling aspects of the sport, but sometimes I wonder if it is glorifying violence in an unhealthy way.

Thoughts?

I'm also curious. The same goes for boxing. It is violence for sport, but it differs in that people are not forced into it. Hence, it is not directly comparable to gladiatorial fights.

A gladitorial combat is being prepared that blood may delight the lust of cruel eyes.

This part is directly applicable, because MMA, and often boxing, is a bloody affair. It seems to me wrong to take delight in that. I can understand the delight of watching the skill of hand-to-hand combat. I don't have a better answer than that it does not feel right to make men shed blood for our entertainment. What comes to mind is Php 4: "7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you."

The body is filled up with stronger foods, and the robust mass of flesh grows fat with bulging muscles, so that fattened for punishment it may perish more dearly. Man is killed for the pleasure of man, and to be able to kill is a skill, is an employment, is an art. Crime is not only committed but is taught. What can be called more inhuman, what more repulsive? It is a training that one may be able to kill, and that he kills is a glory...

Even though they do not kill each other, I think, for many people, it is a symbol thereof. As Western culture turns its back on God, who's to say we won't go back to those extremes? Probably the greatest barrier, from a purely humanitarian perspective, is that slavery is outlawed.

 

[davejonescue]

I think there is a stark contrast in that it seems the gladiatorial games main objective was the death of one opponent; where as most of the martial arts, including MMA and Boxing all have a plethora of rules to minimize lasting harm to the combatants.

Also, it is what another mentioned, often times the gladiators were prisoners and slaves forced to fight for their lives; while contemporary combative sports are voluntary participants trying to be the best in their respective sports. If we were to logically follow through with this, we might have to include other aggressive sports like football, rugby, water polo, and lacrosse; though blood-shed is a lot less prevalent.

I think there is room for violence in the Kingdom of Heaven. I dont think God intended all his men to be pacifists. Paul even uses the imagery of "beating his body" into submission, lest he be found disqualified. Our Lord is the greatest warrior of them all. As long as the intent of the fighter is not to kill to fulfill a bloodlust, but through skill overcome his opponent; and that the spectators do not go to watch someone be murdered as an expected part of the match; there is room for physically combative sports within the realm of Christian liberty.

 

[arapahoepark]

I think there is a stark contrast in that it seems the gladiatorial games main objective was the death of one opponent; where as most of the martial arts, including MMA and Boxing all have a plethora of rules to minimize lasting harm to the combatants.

Quite a few develop CTE. That was known before football's mention of it.

 

[Blood-Bought Pilgrim]

I'm also curious. The same goes for boxing. It is violence for sport, but it differs in that people are not forced into it. Hence, it is not directly comparable to gladiatorial fights.

I'm glad you mentioned boxing as well. I did a little research and apparently boxing is more deadly and dangerous statistically than MMA. That was surprising to me, as I think people would tend to view MMA as more violent.

I think there is room for violence in the Kingdom of Heaven. I dont think God intended all his men to be pacifists. Paul even uses the imagery of "beating his body" into submission, lest he be found disqualified. Our Lord is the greatest warrior of them all. As long as the intent of the fighter is not to kill to fulfill a bloodlust, but through skill overcome his opponent; and that the spectators do not go to watch someone be murdered as an expected part of the match; there is room for physically combative sports within the realm of Christian liberty.

This is a helpful point for thinking through these things too.

 

[Charles Johnson]

Quite a few develop CTE. That was known before football's mention of it.

Including Mohammed Ali. If the boxer most famous for avoiding hits received ultimately fatal brain damage, what about all those guys he knocked out?

 

[Blood-Bought Pilgrim]

Including Mohammed Ali. If the boxer most famous for avoiding hits received ultimately fatal brain damage, what about all those guys he knocked out?

Notably, with MMA one of the reasons it is apparently less dangerous according to recent studies is that grappling is an option, so there tends to be less major damage to the head (though certainly not none).

 

[Charles Johnson]

I support martial arts for training, exercise, and self-defense, but it is really hard for me to see how two guys beating each other to a pulp for the entertainment of the masses is moral.

 

[RamistThomist]

BJJ for personal development and self-defense is a no brainer. MMA is a different monster.

 

[arapahoepark]

I support martial arts for training, exercise, and self-defense, but it is really hard for me to see how two guys beating each other to a pulp for the entertainment of the masses is moral.

It also goes against the ethics of many more traditional martial arts and their instructors.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

My opinion is that all harming and killing for sport is wrong, whether towards animals or people. For the sake of eating, killing animals is permitted. For the sake of learning self-defense, I think learning combat skills is permitted. But for the sake of wanting to harm another living creature, I don't know how that is not a glaring evil.

I know this is about people, but on a side note, it really worries me how a lot of Christians take so much pleasure in killing animals. Terrorizing and killing something for fun and pleasure, with a justification that we have authority over it, is totally unreasonable.

 

[Charles Johnson]

I know this is about people, but on a side note, it really worries me how a lot of Christians take so much pleasure in killing animals. Terrorizing and killing something for fun and pleasure, with a justification that we have authority over it, is totally unreasonable.

Who exactly does this? Everyone I know that hunts or fishes eats what they kill.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

Who exactly does this? Everyone I know that hunts or fishes eats what they kill.

That's good to know. I spent most of my life in south Florida, so most people I knew who fished in the rivers just did it for catch and release. It was said that the rivers were too polluted from the lake for most people to eat what they would catch.

I've known some people that would kill animals just for fun, or because they were an annoyance. Like poisoning stray cats or shooting squirrels. Here in South Carolina, it seems like when people hunt, they want the meat. Here I see a general sobriety and weightiness to taking the life of a living thing.

 

[Clark-Tillian]

The primary difference is, bluntly, life and death. BJJ, Hapkido, Shotokan et. al. do not have the death of the opponent as the immediate objective. Gladiatorial combat did. As for MMA, Boxing, Muay Thai, and the like? One could classify them as less egregious violations of the 6th Word than the gladiator games.