current issues in the PCA

[rmwilliamsjr]

For the last class in the History of American Presbyterianism, i'm thinking of looking at 4 issues currently in the PCA.


federal vision
http://www.apologeticsgroup.org/
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=4604214913
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=42705192726
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=62905235459

league of the South
http://www.dixienet.org/
http://www.auburnavenue.org/

theonomy, reconstruction, dominion theology
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=22770

subscription
http://dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/hap2.html go down to the end with the PCA GA notes:
The six papers presented on Subscription at the PCA 29th G.A.

any help or advice would be appreciated.
the idea is to look briefly at how our study of history this last 12 weeks might help cast some light on these things.

the class is at:
http://dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/hap0.html

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

I knew that AA was controversial within the PCA but I didn't realize that the League of the South was controversial.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Originally posted by rmwilliamsjr
For the last class in the History of American Presbyterianism, i'm thinking of looking at 4 issues currently in the PCA.


federal vision
http://www.apologeticsgroup.org/
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonssource&sermonID=4604214913
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=42705192726
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=62905235459

league of the South
http://www.dixienet.org/
http://www.auburnavenue.org/

theonomy, reconstruction, dominion theology
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=22770

subscription
http://dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/hap2.html go down to the end with the PCA GA notes:
The six papers presented on Subscription at the PCA 29th G.A.

any help or advice would be appreciated.
the idea is to look briefly at how our study of history this last 12 weeks might help cast some light on these things.

the class is at:
http://dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/hap0.html

I am biased. I would try to define and defend JBFA in light of NPP and AA. It is the main thing that needs addressed today In my humble opinion. We need to lift up our voices so that truth triumphs supreme. The squeaky noise gets the oil.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

How is the League of the South Controversial? Are they white supremacists? I truly don't know anything about them. I have listened to their radio station online before. Of course, I like it.

[Edited on 8-15-2005 by puritancovenanter]

 

[LadyFlynt]

Curious....what is League of the South? That's a new one to me.

 

[RamistThomist]

Talking with a few pastors and elders who used to be big names in the LoS, they said the group moved more toward a political avenue than a theological/historical one. In other words, people became more concerned with political issues instead of the theological historical foundation of the south.

 

[AdamM]

Here's my $0.02.

I don't think LOS, Theonomy and Christian Recon per se are giant issues today. Both in my opinion, have to some degree either run out of gas or to a degree, moved in a different direction - see FV.

I think the same goes for subscription and 24/7 creation. The issues have pretty much been decided, with the BCO now amended, whether folks like the outcome or not.

in my opinion, here are a couple more to consider:

1. I think the New Perspectives need to be looked at separately then the FV. In the long run in my opinion, the NPP is going to be a much tougher issue for the denomination, because it is already deeply rooted in academic circles and comes as a coherent system, something the FV really isn't.

2. Worship seems to me to be a major hot button issue bubbling right below the surface. Oddly this is where you have two movements seemingly opposite of each other putting pressure on the center. On one hand you have a new movement promoting a very formal approach, similar to high church Episcopalian worship and on the other hand there is the trend toward contemporary worship. There are many shades in between the extremes, but I think Tim Keller is correct in noting that the discussion/debate over worship is long overdue in the PCA.

3. Even though the denomination issued a majority position paper, paedocommunion is still an issue too, since pro-paedocommunion churches will some times take professions of faith from toddlers, the issue spills over into the congregational level. Wait until a 3 or 4 year old tries to transfer into your congregation as a communing member.

4. Of course Federal Vision is a big issue, but I think the impact is going to be somewhat less then I thought it would be a couple years ago, since the FV seems to me to get traction only within a relatively small niche of people. Of course that can be a noisy niche on the web, but I think away from the blogs and boards, the appeal is narrow. Still an isssue and very worthy of discussion.


For what it's worth, with no evidence, only a hunch, I would predict the big future debate many years down the road will involve scripture and inerrancy. It just seems to me reading what gets written in some theological journal articles, just below the surface there is a skepticism regarding the usefulness the concept of inerrancy (for example as expressed in the Chicago Statement.) That coupled with attacks on gramatico - historical exegesis seems to me to be setting the stage for some big trouble down the road. Just pure speculation and I hope I'm proved totally wrong in the future.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Curious....what is League of the South? That's a new one to me.

???

 

[AdamM]

It's a group looking for the South to rise again. As a life long Yankee, I don't get it, but here's the description right from the web site:


www.dixie.net

Most organizations founder because they lack self-definition and a definite goal. The League of the South is a Southern Nationalist organization whose ultimate goal is a free and independent Southern republic. To reach this goal, we intend to create the climate for a free South among our people by 1) de-legitimating the American Empire at every opportunity; 2) by proving our willingness to be servant-leaders to the Southern people; and 3) by making The League of the South a strong, viable organization that will lead us to Southern independence.

While our overall strategy--short, medium, and long range--is determined by the President, the Board, and our State Chairman, our tactical operational focus is on the local level. We intend to form active chapters in every county in every Southern State, and as many chapters as possible in non-Southern States. We also encourage individuals and families to personally secede from the corrupt and corrupting influence of post-Christian culture in America. We call this "abjuring the realm," and it's a real and dramatic first step all of us can take by simply withdrawing our support of and allegiance to a regime that has imperiled our future.

While we seek to use shame and contempt to de-legitimate the institutions controlled by the Empire, we must not stop there. We must create our own parallel institutions to which our people can attach their loyalties. A good example of this is the move out of the "public" schools and into home schooling or the establishment of our own private academies. Also, the League sponsors weekend Hedge Schools and week-long summer institutes to educate our people.

At present, the League is more concerned with resurrecting our cultural base than with entering into the political arena. Once our Southern culture is re-established, then the political issues will begin to take care of themselves. Good leaders flow naturally out of a healthy culture; however, power-hungry, self-seeking politicians are all we can expect from the debased cultural climate we have today.

The League of the South seeks leaders who have the hearts of servants. The Bible tells us clearly that no man can lead until he is willing to serve his fellowmen. When you join our organization, we expect you to begin immediately serving our cause and our people. We will show you how.

Our revised website, www.dixienet.org, is a cutting-edge, interactive site filled with a wealth of information. We are presently working on an operations manual for new members and local officers. New members are provided a list of State Chairmen for our organized States. We strongly advise our new recruits to contact their State or local officers, offer your talents, and make plans to attend your local and State chapter meetings. There you will be shown how to put the League's strategy into effect by means of our tactical operational plan. You also will meet our leaders, get to know other members, and become part of a real community dedicated to a noble cause. If you live in a State or locality that does not have an organized chapter, this website has a document (listed as "How to Form A County Chapter" under our Introduction on the Main Menu) that shows you how to form and run a local chapter.

All League members receive the Southern Patriot newsletter every other month. Read it closely to keep abreast of League activities and projects.

By joining The League of the South you have placed yourself among a group of men and women who are not content to sit by and allow their land, liberty, and culture be destroyed by an alien regime and ideology. You have joined an active organization that knows where it wants to go and how to go about getting there. The League is no place for the lazy or the faint-hearted. We would love to welcome you to our growing band of Brothers and Sisters. Please join us today.

For Southern independence,

Michael Hill
President

 

[Scott Bushey]

One of the issue's that should be dealt with is tolerance and infiltration of Arminianism. In my opinion, this is as large, if not larger than FV. That would be a paper in itself. Can you say viral or insidious?

[Edited on 8-16-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by AdamM
Here's my $0.02.

I don't think LOS, Theonomy and Christian Recon per se are giant issues today. Both in my opinion, have to some degree either run out of gas or to a degree, moved in a different direction - see FV.

I think the same goes for subscription and 24/7 creation. The issues have pretty much been decided, with the BCO now amended, whether folks like the outcome or not.

in my opinion, here are a couple more to consider:

1. I think the New Perspectives need to be looked at separately then the FV. In the long run in my opinion, the NPP is going to be a much tougher issue for the denomination, because it is already deeply rooted in academic circles and comes as a coherent system, something the FV really isn't.

2. Worship seems to me to be a major hot button issue bubbling right below the surface. Oddly this is where you have two movements seemingly opposite of each other putting pressure on the center. On one hand you have a new movement promoting a very formal approach, similar to high church Episcopalian worship and on the other hand there is the trend toward contemporary worship. There are many shades in between the extremes, but I think Tim Keller is correct in noting that the discussion/debate over worship is long overdue in the PCA.

3. Even though the denomination issued a majority position paper, paedocommunion is still an issue too, since pro-paedocommunion churches will some times take professions of faith from toddlers, the issue spills over into the congregational level. Wait until a 3 or 4 year old tries to transfer into your congregation as a communing member.

4. Of course Federal Vision is a big issue, but I think the impact is going to be somewhat less then I thought it would be a couple years ago, since the FV seems to me to get traction only within a relatively small niche of people. Of course that can be a noisy niche on the web, but I think away from the blogs and boards, the appeal is narrow. Still an isssue and very worthy of discussion.


For what it's worth, with no evidence, only a hunch, I would predict the big future debate many years down the road will involve scripture and inerrancy. It just seems to me reading what gets written in some theological journal articles, just below the surface there is a skepticism regarding the usefulness the concept of inerrancy (for example as expressed in the Chicago Statement.) That coupled with attacks on gramatico - historical exegesis seems to me to be setting the stage for some big trouble down the road. Just pure speculation and I hope I'm proved totally wrong in the future.

I think this is a very helpful and accurate assessment, Adam. I too think that paedocommunion is the next big issue. One could really say that the entire FV controversy has arisen out of a desire to find legitimacy (even within Confessional bounds) for the practice of paedocommunion. It is no coincidence that the major FV proponents are all paedocommunionists - and were so for some time before the FV became a movement.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

The primary areas where I see that Reformation is needed in the PCA (not necessarily in order of importance):

1) Justification -- NPP/FV

2) Subscription

3) Creation

4) The Law -- Sabbath, theonomy

5) Worship -- Second Commandment/RPW

6) Paedocommunion

7) Bible -- Majority Text

8) Arminianism

9) Ecclesiology -- Independent tendencies

10) Eschatology

11) Feminism

12) Church - State Relations

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by puritancovenanter
How is the League of the South Controversial? Are they white supremacists? I truly don't know anything about them. I have listened to their radio station online before. Of course, I like it.

[Edited on 8-15-2005 by puritancovenanter]

This is smear from the radical leftist Southern Poverty Legal Center and its mischief maker and hustler Morris Dees. This is the same guy that instigated the removal of the Ten Commandments in Alabama and lobbied for getting Roy Moore disbarred.

I can fault the League of the South for a thousand other things -- being nostaglic for the past, being politically impotent, unrealistic, but they are not radical or racist nor do they deserve those appellations that have been foisted upon them. Their political activism revolves around southern heritage preservation... The Southern Party was a short-lived outlet for Neo-Confederates to get excited about the untenable idea of secession and the rebirth of the Confederacy. Officially, the LoS states,

We Seek to Advance the Cultural, Social, Economic, and Political Well Being and Independence of the Southern People by all Honourable Means

In Europe, every advocate of immigration reform is smeared as a Nazi, so one need not take every grumbling from the radical left seriously. Marxists have long called all of their enemies fascists.... and ex-Marxist, New Left liberals like Dees not shedding off their 60s radicalism, still echo such non-sense.

 

[BJClark]

I haven't read the articles and will do so at a later time, but one issue I see that needs to be addressed is more Accountability.

If there are members on your church roles that aren't going to church, they need to be called, I know when we joined our church that is one of the things we had to agree to, to be held accountable--yet, when my husband misses church two or three weeks in a row, I'm asked where he is, and tell me "let him know I was asking about him" yet NOBODY calls and ASKS HIM where he is.

Where is the accountability??

Where are the men who claim to be "Promise Keepers" as I know there are MANY even within the PCA. So Where are They? Where are they when it comes to stepping out and calling men back to God within their own churches?

Where is the Discipleship?

The women and wives aren't supposed to nag, yet, it seems it's happening more and more because men are failing to lead by example by reaching out to both the men and boys to be in Church.

I don't know, maybe it's just my church, but I honestly don't think that's the case.

For the men here, what are your churches like? Do they call men on the phones if they miss a sunday?