Crying out & emotionalism

[nwink]

Several years ago, I used to hang around some somewhat-Reformed-Baptist types that are godly people, and I was very influenced by them. They seemed to follow the type of thinking that more or less expects that every unbeliever needs to spend lots of time "seeking God" or "crying out to God" until he receives some emotional response where he is then truly considered converted. I mean, that's not what they say, but that's how it works out in reality. (I don't know if this might be kind-of New England puritanish or not. It seems like I've read Solomon Stoddard or others saying similar things.) The type of thinking is that you pray enough until you feel like God has converted you (rather than that you seek God in sincerity and earnestness according to His promises and word and find assurance therein despite how you are feeling any day).

This was a hard experience for me back in the day and caused me to doubt my faith a lot until I understood that assurance's primary basis is on the objective promises of Scripture, not some experience I feel like I have/haven't had. So while I haven't spend hours praying and waiting for some "true" conversion moment or waiting to hate my sin enough or whatever, I do believe that I have called on the Lord's name alone and thus that I will not be ashamed. I haven't spent hours waiting for something in prayer, but I've simply turned to the Lord in faith and repentance. I recognize my complete lack of righteousness and complete sinfulness and that I can do nothing for my salvation, but I look to Christ and find my standing with God because of Christ's life and death.

So I'm not speaking in present tense as if this is something I'm currently dealing with, but this is some of the stuff I've gone through in the past and what I've learned as I've grown more. I mainly wanted to share this if anyone else has experienced similar guilt-trips or whatever and what they've learned since. It would be extremely helpful to hear others who might've experience the same things in their lives.

 

[thbslawson]

I'm curious if this was connected with the ministry of L.R. Shelton Sr., and "Radio Missions" out of New Orleans. Are you familiar with them?

At any rate, what your talking about is almost the exact thing I grew up with under that ministry. It was to the degree that the church was filled with "Awakened Sinners", people who had supposedly been under "Holy Spirit conviction", some for years and a few even for decades. It was as if they knew they needed Christ, trusted in his finished work, yet weren't yet "saved" because they hadn't had a definitive experience. I left this ministry during college, discouraged because I too had been under the supposed conviction of the Spirit for almost 7 years and still didn't "feel saved." I began attending a PCA church and through the stead study and hearing of the Word preached found assurance.

At its core it harkens back to a teaching called "Preparationism" if I'm not mistaken. Essentially, the idea is that before God sovereignly saves a sinner he will bring him to the lowest of the lowest points in his life and show him the absolute depths of his sins until he fully repents. Granted this happens with some people, but one would be hard pressed to make it a scriptural mandate. I know in the lives of many believers the full depths of sins are not fully realized until after conversion and throughout life.

At best it turns the focus of salvation to an experience. Thus, the gospel is all about getting saved and making sure you're really saved. No room is left for the miraculous regeneration of the Spirit in childhood. Also, no room is left for those who lack assurance for one reason or another. I remember hearing sermons of L.R. Shelton when I was young where he said "You cannot be saved and not know it for certain." For this reason I must have made at least a dozen professions of faith only to recant each time I felt myself wavering. As I look back at my own life, I truly believe God saved me at a young age. I do remember a moment where I knew my sin and believed only in Christ, yet I was told this wasn't salvation, only that I had been "Awakened."

At worst, it destroys Christian joy. As I look back at many of these "Awakened Sinners" that I knew, there were a good number that had been under "Conviction" for 15-20 years. They knew they were helpless before God, they were looking to Christ for salvation, and their lives exhibited the fruits of the Sprit. Yet they were not yet "saved" because they lacked the experience. So they lived in a constant state of fear, hoping that God would save them, and hoping that their conviction was indeed of the Holy Spirit and not merely conscience. I believe many of them were truly saved already, merely trapped under an errant understanding of what salvation truly is.

 

[Zach]

I have felt very much the same thing and in a lot of ways am going through similar experiences in my own walk with the Lord. Thank you for sharing, Nathan. It is very encouraging!

 

[Pergamum]

In Pilgrim's Progress not every pilgrim needs pass through the Slough of Despond.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

In Pilgrim's Progress not every pilgrim needs pass through the Slough of Despond.

I don't know any Christian who has not passed through this Slough unless they died in infancy.

Also let it be known that living before God with a clean conscience was the goal of many a saint. Especially Saint Paul.

(Act 24:16) And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

The conscience is very important. We are even warned about searing them.

Rom_2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

Rom_9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Rom_13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

1Co_8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

2Co_1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2Co_4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

1Ti_1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

1Ti_1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

1Ti_3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

1Ti_4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Tit_1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb_10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Heb_10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb_13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

Now I do believe our conscience does have some attachment here.

At the same time I hold fastly to these passages.

(Joh 5:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



(1Jn 5:11) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

(1Jn 5:12) He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

(1Jn 5:13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

(Php 1:6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


Heb_5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Heb_12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Nothing in my hand I bring. Simply to the Cross of Christ I cling.

 

[Unoriginalname]

I also feel into some sort of similar teachings a few years ago.

 

[steadfast7]

I don't think that God's needs to move someone emotionally prior to their regeneration before they can be genuinely saved. However, I would be surprised if real conversion and the rest of the Christian life did not encompass some sort of affective component, especially in the initial moments of recognizing one's depravity and Christ's beautiful gospel. We are called to love with all our soul after all.

 

[Pergamum]

I don't know any Christian who has not passed through this Slough unless they died in infancy.

"This miry slough is such a place as cannot be mended: it is the descent whither the scum and filth that attends conviction for sin doth continually run; and therefore it is called the Slough of Despond. For still, as the sinner is awakened about his lost condition, there arises in his soul many fears and doubts, and discouraging apprehensions, which all of them get together, and settle in this place: and this is the reason of the badness of this ground.

"It is not the pleasure of the King that this place should remain so bad (Isa 35:3,4); his labourers also have, by the directions of his Majesty’s surveyors, been for above this sixteen hundred years employed about this patch of ground to see if perhaps it might have been mended: yea, and to my knowledge," said he, "here have been swallowed up at least twenty thousand cartloads, yea, millions, of wholesome instructions. The cartloads have, at all season, been brought from all places of the King’s dominions (and they that can tell say they are the best materials to make good ground of the place), if so be it might have been mended. But it is the Slough of Despond still, and so will be, when they have done what they can.

"True, there are, by the direction of the lawgiver, certain good and substantial steps placed evenly through the very midst of this slough; but at such times as this place does spew out its filth, as it doth against change of weather, these steps are hardly seen; or, if they be, men, through the dizziness of their heads, step beside, and then they are bemired to purpose, notwithstanding the steps be there; but the ground is good when they have once got in at the gate" (1 Sa 12:23).

One can avoid being in the slough.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

One can avoid being in the slough

but the ground is good when they have once got in at the gate" (1 Sa 12:23).

We can also avoid sin and have a way of escape as 1 Cor. 10:13 says but we all have to deal with it and turn to 1 John 1:8-10.

I cry with Paul...

(Rom 7:15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

(Rom 7:16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.


(Rom 7:17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


(Rom 7:18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


(Rom 7:19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.


(Rom 7:20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


(Rom 7:21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


(Rom 7:22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


(Rom 7:23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


(Rom 7:24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


(Rom 7:25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Pergamum]

Here is Christiana and her encounter with the slough of despond:

Now my old friend proceeded, and said, But when Christiana came to the Slough of Despond, she began to be at a stand; For, said she, this is the place in which my dear husband had like to have been smothered with mud. She perceived, also, that notwithstanding the command of the King to make this place for pilgrims good, yet it was rather worse than formerly. So I asked if that was true. Yes, said the old gentleman, too true; for many there be that pretend to be the King's laborers, and that say they are for mending the King's highways, who bring dirt and dung instead of stones, and so mar instead of mending. Here Christiana therefore, with her boys, did make a stand. But said Mercy, Come, let us venture; only let us be wary. Then they looked well to their steps, and made a shift to get staggering over.

Yet Christiana had like to have been in, and that not once or twice. Now they had no sooner got over, but they thought they heard words that said unto them, "Blessed is she that believeth; for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord." Luke 1:45.

Then they went on again; and said Mercy to Christiana, had I as good ground to hope for a loving reception at the Wicket-gate as you, I think no Slough of Despond would discourage me.

Well, said the other, you know your sore, and I know mine; and, good friend, we shall all have enough evil before we come to our journey's end. For can it be imagined that the people who design to attain such excellent glories as we do, and who are so envied that happiness as we are, but that we shall meet with what fears and snares, with what troubles and afflictions they can possibly assault us with that hate us?

I have met a few Christians (not many, however) who were saved with almost no protracted period of conviction, as if they gladly received the Word as soon as they heard and didn't think twice or didn't ponder their sins at all, nor even seemed sorry for them (and yet they believe, bear fruit, acknowledge that that were and are still sinners, and yet seem to feel no continuing sorrow but only joy over being snatched from those sins).

 

[py3ak]

It seems that making one sort of conversion experience a standard has been a fruitful source of error over the years: though Psalm 107 would show that the Lord deals with people differently, and Acts and the Gospels bear that out pretty fully.
As I recall him telling it, my dad was invited to a meeting, heard the Gospel, seized the back of the pew in front of him to resist going forward, went anyway, and has served the Lord ever since: he is now in his seventh or eighth post of missionary service. He started out his Christian life knowing that grace was irresistible, because grace overcame him. I think that is an encouraging narrative; but if it were turned into a standard, it would exclude people who have been no less faithful and zealous.

 

[MarieP]

I don't know any Christian who has not passed through this Slough unless they died in infancy.

I do not believe I went through the slough of despond (though there have been a few times since then that I feel as if I have!) I remember being convicted of my sins and repenting, and I did hate my sin, but what I remember most is a love for Christ and the Word and His ways that hadn't existed before. My sins were chiefly of the "respectable" type, as Jerry Bridges put it, so it wasn't as outwardly dramatic as other conversions. But I trust I still went from death to life, from darkness to light, because I called upon the Lord in faith, asking Him to forgive me and be my Lord and All in All. Honestly, the greatest emotional reaction I had to my sin was months after my conversion (and that over sin I'd committed as a Christian). I've had greater emotional reactions to it since then.

It's interesting that my pastor, who grew up in a totally secular home and was heavily steeped in the things of the world, also says that it was chiefly the love of Christ and the life of others that led Him to Christ (though he knew he needed forgiveness and did repent).

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

When discussing depression, Matthew Winzer once taught me that there is a difference between joy as emotion and as contemplation:

Human personality is not designed to function as a disembodied spirit but as a physical entity in a physical world. Our present physicality is tied to the earth. There are pleasant and painful feelings associated with it. That is a fact. It cannot in and of itself be judged as Christian or non Christian any more than other physical feelings of pain and pleasure. We personally feel a certain way with respect to the world and our physical condition in it. For some people those feelings can be quite painful, and the way man deals with pain is by suppression/depression. That is our natural response. The pain gets too much to deal with so we suppress it. In reality, that is all depression is, but it can also be complicated by numerous physical and psychological factors.

The joy of a believer is of a different kind. It is a deep-seated satisfaction which does not rely on physical conditions in the world or feeling related to the body or even to a specific mental state. It is joy in God, in the contemplation of reconciliation with God, in the present communion which is shared with Him, in the future prospect of being partaker of His glory. It is commanded. It is something which can be "reckoned" even when there is no outward stimulus for it, but only what is contrary to it. It can, then, exist side by side with those other emotions. One can hope against hope, live by the evidence of things not seen. If that is so, it should not be measured or judged by a comparison with these other emotions. It is a joy unspeakable and full of glory, which means it cannot be bound by the limitations of other human feelings. The presence of depression does not indicate the absence of Christian joy.

 

[thbslawson]

I don't know any Christian who has not passed through this Slough unless they died in infancy.

What of John the Baptist? Or what of covenant children who grow up following the Lord and never know a day where they didn't know Christ?

 

[J. Dean]

It seems that making one sort of conversion experience a standard has been a fruitful source of error over the years: though Psalm 107 would show that the Lord deals with people differently, and Acts and the Gospels bear that out pretty fully.
As I recall him telling it, my dad was invited to a meeting, heard the Gospel, seized the back of the pew in front of him to resist going forward, went anyway, and has served the Lord ever since: he is now in his seventh or eighth post of missionary service. He started out his Christian life knowing that grace was irresistible, because grace overcame him. I think that is an encouraging narrative; but if it were turned into a standard, it would exclude people who have been no less faithful and zealous.

This.

The "wrestling with God" conversion needs to be treated with great care. It's very easy in those situations to base one's salvation on how one feels at the moment, and that's a very dangerous position to take. This was Charles Finney's "conversion experience," and you all know what he thought of the substitutionary atonement.

Trust what it is written. If emotions follow, then God be praised. If they don't, God be praised there too.