Covenant of Grace

Your view of the components of the Covenant of Grace?

  • All POST-Fall Covenants

    Votes: 28 84.8%
  • Only the New Covenant established in the New Testament

    Votes: 2 6.1%
  • All POST-Fall Covenants except the Mosaic (Mosaic republication of COW)

    Votes: 3 9.1%

  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

Grant

Puritan Board Senior
They do claim to have the more historical view, but it is common for people in desperate struggle for an untenable position to try to round up dead guys to support them. I just read a book by a dispensationalist who cited several church fathers to support the claim that dispensationalism was the orthodox view of the early church!...good grief, as Charlie Brown would have said.
However, there are more differences between the Vanilla RB position and Westminster CT than just visible church membership--or rather, that one goes deeper than just "who is a member". It has to do with "Who is in covenant with God?" RBs believe that in the New Covenant (the final expression of the CoG), only those who are regenerate are in covenant with God. While covenant inclusion was by physical birth in the OT, it is by spiritual birth in the NT. The Nation of Israel, you see, while being God's chosen people, was an imperfect representation of what God's chosen people would look like later, when physical birth and nationality mattered not at all; when the New Birth, and to be the spiritual progeny of Abraham is what matters.
Of course, even in the OT, it was the circumcision of the heart that mattered; faith was required for regeneration, and saints were indwelt by God's spirit. But in the NT, the types and shadows--even the type of covenant inclusion by physical birth, which did not avail if God did not grant repentance and faith, have been abrogated. The covenantal sign is now given to infants in Christ--those who have just been Born Again, and are adopted into God's family, the Israel of God.
As to mode, I think immersion is best, but whether to dip, sprinkle or douse with a hose is immaterial. If mode could make or break the sign, then we could really get tied up in knots about the Lord's Supper! (which I understand some people do.....but that's for another thread).
A blessed Lord's Day to you.
Ben,

The diagram I was speaking of earlier is on the below site.

The 1689federlist call your view “modern”
I am sure you rightly disagree. Anyways just wanted you to see (I like diagrams).
https://contrast2.wordpress.com/2015/07/17/did-spurgeon-hold-to-1689-federalism/
 

Ben Zartman

Puritan Board Sophomore
Ben,

The diagram I was speaking of earlier is on the below site.

The 1689federlist call your view “modern”
I am sure you rightly disagree. Anyways just wanted you to see (I like diagrams).
https://contrast2.wordpress.com/2015/07/17/did-spurgeon-hold-to-1689-federalism/
Thanks for the link, Grant.
I know a dispensationalist whose master's dissertation was an effort to prove that Spurgeon was also a dispensationalist....point being, quotes can be cherry-picked from almost anybody to prove something. Strangely, they call my view modern, and admit that John Gill held to it. But no amount of dead guys on either side can compare to the witness of Scripture.
I will say in charity to my Federalism friends, that there is a lot of "do this and receive temporal blessings" language in the OC. But what they miss is that the temporal blessings, the land promises, all those things, are types and shadows of the reality. The Mosaic law was a schoolmaster to show them (and us) the need for an alien righteousness--no one could ever hope to be justified by the works of the law. Did God chastise temporal law breaking with temporal curses? sure! But even that was illustrating the principle we still have today: that the way of the transgressor is hard, and that whom the Lord loves He chastens.

It could even be said that the promise to Abraham has been fulfilled, that everywhere his foot trod would be given to his descendants. It was, and more, during the reigns of David and Solomon. But David and Solomon were only shadows of Messiah, and the peace and prosperity they brought were only shadows of the better peace, the better-the spiritual-prosperity that were coming with Christ. So though it was fulfilled in a way, the land of Palestine was only a shadow of what the promise to Abraham was really about. Abraham by faith was seeking a city not made with men's hands, eternal in the heavens.

While they recoil in horror at the term, the 1689 federalists insistence upon temporal land and temporal blessings being the point of the OC is dangerously close to being dispensational. Someone should make a Venn Diagram showing how similar those two positions have become.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
They do claim to have the more historical view, but it is common for people in desperate struggle for an untenable position to try to round up dead guys to support them. I just read a book by a dispensationalist who cited several church fathers to support the claim that dispensationalism was the orthodox view of the early church!...good grief, as Charlie Brown would have said.
However, there are more differences between the Vanilla RB position and Westminster CT than just visible church membership--or rather, that one goes deeper than just "who is a member". It has to do with "Who is in covenant with God?" RBs believe that in the New Covenant (the final expression of the CoG), only those who are regenerate are in covenant with God. While covenant inclusion was by physical birth in the OT, it is by spiritual birth in the NT. The Nation of Israel, you see, while being God's chosen people, was an imperfect representation of what God's chosen people would look like later, when physical birth and nationality mattered not at all; when the New Birth, and to be the spiritual progeny of Abraham is what matters.
Of course, even in the OT, it was the circumcision of the heart that mattered; faith was required for regeneration, and saints were indwelt by God's spirit. But in the NT, the types and shadows--even the type of covenant inclusion by physical birth, which did not avail if God did not grant repentance and faith, have been abrogated. The covenantal sign is now given to infants in Christ--those who have just been Born Again, and are adopted into God's family, the Israel of God.
As to mode, I think immersion is best, but whether to dip, sprinkle or douse with a hose is immaterial. If mode could make or break the sign, then we could really get tied up in knots about the Lord's Supper! (which I understand some people do.....but that's for another thread).
A blessed Lord's Day to you.
The Pauline sign of one now being included into the NC would not be the physical sign of water baptism, but of one having been baptized in the the true Body of Christ by the Spirit when redeemed.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Thanks for the link, Grant.
I know a dispensationalist whose master's dissertation was an effort to prove that Spurgeon was also a dispensationalist....point being, quotes can be cherry-picked from almost anybody to prove something. Strangely, they call my view modern, and admit that John Gill held to it. But no amount of dead guys on either side can compare to the witness of Scripture.
I will say in charity to my Federalism friends, that there is a lot of "do this and receive temporal blessings" language in the OC. But what they miss is that the temporal blessings, the land promises, all those things, are types and shadows of the reality. The Mosaic law was a schoolmaster to show them (and us) the need for an alien righteousness--no one could ever hope to be justified by the works of the law. Did God chastise temporal law breaking with temporal curses? sure! But even that was illustrating the principle we still have today: that the way of the transgressor is hard, and that whom the Lord loves He chastens.

It could even be said that the promise to Abraham has been fulfilled, that everywhere his foot trod would be given to his descendants. It was, and more, during the reigns of David and Solomon. But David and Solomon were only shadows of Messiah, and the peace and prosperity they brought were only shadows of the better peace, the better-the spiritual-prosperity that were coming with Christ. So though it was fulfilled in a way, the land of Palestine was only a shadow of what the promise to Abraham was really about. Abraham by faith was seeking a city not made with men's hands, eternal in the heavens.

While they recoil in horror at the term, the 1689 federalists insistence upon temporal land and temporal blessings being the point of the OC is dangerously close to being dispensational. Someone should make a Venn Diagram showing how similar those two positions have become.
Again, the question here seems to be revolving around just how new is really the NC, as from that perspective follows who is to be included under it, what baptism to administer, etc.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Psalm 110 says that Jesus has always been a Priest:


1 The Lord said unto my Lord,

Sit thou at my right hand,

Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion:

Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness

From the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent,

Thou art a priest *for ever

After the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand

Shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies;

He shall wound the heads over many countries.

7 He shall drink of the brook in the way:

Therefore shall he lift up the head.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 110:1–7.

*5769. עוֹלָם olam or

עֹלָם olam (761d); from an unused word; long duration, antiquity, futurity:—ages(1), all successive(1), always(1), ancient(13), ancient times(3), continual(1), days of old(1), eternal(2), eternity(3), ever(10), Everlasting(2), everlasting(110), forever(136), forever and ever(1), forever*(70), forevermore*(1), lasting(1), long(2), long ago(3), long past(1), long time(3), never*(17), old(11), permanent(10), permanently(1), perpetual(29), perpetually(1).

Robert L. Thomas, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries : Updated Edition (Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc., 1998).

Then of course, there is the argument whether or not Melchisidec was a theophany:

7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Heb 7.
I would see that being fulled at the Ascension of Jesus, and also to be applied towards the preMil reign of Him over the earth.
 

Grant

Puritan Board Senior
The Pauline sign of one now being included into the NC would not be the physical sign of water baptism, but of one having been baptized in the the true Body of Christ by the Spirit when redeemed.
Brother this is a dangerous post you have made. The covenant sign in the Old Testament and the New Testament were both physical signs that are required , Not in the sense that the physical sign saves but rather they are required for a Christian to be obedient to. Read your confession on the matter. Both of the physical signs point to spiritual realities.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Brother this is a dangerous post you have made. The covenant sign in the Old Testament and the New Testament were both physical signs that are required , Not in the sense that the physical sign saves but rather they are required for a Christian to be obedient to. Read your confession on the matter. Both of the physical signs point to spiritual realities.
I do recognize the 1689 LBCF that water baptism is the external sign to be done to the believer now in Christ, but my point was more that the NC would indeed now involve, especially to Paul, the sealing of the person now by the Holy Spirit of Christ. No Spirit, not seen as being in the NC.
 

Ben Zartman

Puritan Board Sophomore
The Pauline sign of one now being included into the NC would not be the physical sign of water baptism, but of one having been baptized in the the true Body of Christ by the Spirit when redeemed.
The sign of water baptism is to be applied to those who are now in union with Christ. Are you claiming that Paul disagreed with Jesus and the other of his apostles?
 

Ben Zartman

Puritan Board Sophomore
I do recognize the 1689 LBCF that water baptism is the external sign to be done to the believer now in Christ, but my point was more that the NC would indeed now involve, especially to Paul, the sealing of the person now by the Holy Spirit of Christ. No Spirit, not seen as being in the NC.
Certainly those who do not have the Spirit do not have union with Christ, but what has that to do with a physical sign? The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not a "sign," it is an everyday reality.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
The sign of water baptism is to be applied to those who are now in union with Christ. Are you claiming that Paul disagreed with Jesus and the other of his apostles?
No, I fully agree that water baptism is tobe dome to one based upon the confession of now being saved by Jesus, but to Paul, the indwelling of the Holy spirit would be the true sign.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Certainly those who do not have the Spirit do not have union with Christ, but what has that to do with a physical sign? The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not a "sign," it is an everyday reality.
The water is a sign to us externally of what the Spirit has done internally to them.
 

Grant

Puritan Board Senior
No, I fully agree that water baptism is tobe dome to one based upon the confession of now being saved by Jesus, but to Paul, the indwelling of the Holy spirit would be the true sign.
not just Paul but to every other Saint in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. In the Old Testament God required the physical sign of circumcision for obedience but what God was really after and what Moses really proclaimed is that God desired that their hearts would be circumcised .

In the New Testament God commanded a physical sign of baptism. But just like in the Old Testament God really desires the spiritual sign .
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
not just Paul but to every other Saint in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. In the Old Testament God required the physical sign of circumcision for obedience but what God was really after and what Moses really proclaimed is that God desired that their hearts would be circumcised .
Which was not happening until the NC, as that was then the external law of God was to be written now upon their hearts.
 

Grant

Puritan Board Senior
Which was not happening until the NC, as that was then the external law of God was to be written now upon their hearts.
Your post implies that there was no one in the old testament, prior to Jesus physically inhabiting the earth, Who had a circumcised heart, nor were there any who were filled with the Holy Spirit.

This is madness And I believe quite unbiblical. David, I do not say that lightly either. The logic of your post is very worrisome.
 
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Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Your post implies that there was no one in the old testament, prior to Jesus physically inhabiting the earth, Who had a circumcised heart, nor were there any who are filled with the Holy Spirit.

This is madness And I believe quite unbiblical. David, I do not say that lightly either. The logic of your post is very worrisome.
I do not hold to either, but the prophet Jeremiah did state that there was coming a NC to israel, and to us as the spiritual heirs of Abraham, who had received Jesus as the Messiah and Lord. The Holy Spirit activity in the OC seemed to be mainly involved with coming upon and using prophets/priest/ and the various Kings in the OT.
I am just saying that we now have a far more glorious Covenant than any of the OT believers did, as we are in relationship with God post Pentecost.
 
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Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
Jer 31 is a now and not yet passage; as was Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 11:19

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 36:26

26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Eze 11:19–36:26.

Jer 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

After those days, saith the Lord,

fI will put my law in their inward parts,

And write it in their hearts;

And will be their God,

And they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,

Know the Lord:

For they shall all know me,

From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord:

For I will forgive their iniquity,

And I will remember their sin no more.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Je 31:33–34.

Poole:

Rom. 7:22. But some may object, How was this a new covenant? Did not God of old write his law in the hearts of his people? Did not David, and other the servants of God, (of whom we read in the Old Testament,) serve God out of a principle of love and delight in his law? Answ. Undoubtedly David and others did so, and the law of God was wrote in their hearts, but it was by virtue of this new covenant, from the free and efficacious grace of God. Mr. Calvin, I think, judgeth right, that the prophet’s design here is to express the difference betwixt the law and the gospel. The first showeth duty; the latter bringeth along with it the grace of regeneration, by which the heart is changed, fitted, and enabled for and unto duty. All under the time of the law that came to salvation were saved, not from the law, or by that, but by the gospel, and this new covenant; but this was not evidently exhibited, neither was the regenerating grace of God so common, under the time of the law, as it hath been under the gospel, which maketh it look like a new covenant with men, though it was the same covenant which God was always in with his people;

Matthew Poole, Annotations upon the Holy Bible, vol. 2 (New York: Robert Carter and Brothers, 1853), 592.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Jer 31 is a now and not yet passage; as was Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 11:19

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 36:26

26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Eze 11:19–36:26.

Jer 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

After those days, saith the Lord,

fI will put my law in their inward parts,

And write it in their hearts;

And will be their God,

And they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,

Know the Lord:

For they shall all know me,

From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord:

For I will forgive their iniquity,

And I will remember their sin no more.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Je 31:33–34.

Poole:

Rom. 7:22. But some may object, How was this a new covenant? Did not God of old write his law in the hearts of his people? Did not David, and other the servants of God, (of whom we read in the Old Testament,) serve God out of a principle of love and delight in his law? Answ. Undoubtedly David and others did so, and the law of God was wrote in their hearts, but it was by virtue of this new covenant, from the free and efficacious grace of God. Mr. Calvin, I think, judgeth right, that the prophet’s design here is to express the difference betwixt the law and the gospel. The first showeth duty; the latter bringeth along with it the grace of regeneration, by which the heart is changed, fitted, and enabled for and unto duty. All under the time of the law that came to salvation were saved, not from the law, or by that, but by the gospel, and this new covenant; but this was not evidently exhibited, neither was the regenerating grace of God so common, under the time of the law, as it hath been under the gospel, which maketh it look like a new covenant with men, though it was the same covenant which God was always in with his people;

Matthew Poole, Annotations upon the Holy Bible, vol. 2 (New York: Robert Carter and Brothers, 1853), 592.
I take Jeremiah and Ezekiel were talking of the time when Messiah, lord Jesus actually showed up.
 

Grant

Puritan Board Senior
I take Jeremiah and Ezekiel were talking of the time when Messiah, lord Jesus actually showed up.
Matthew Henry's Commentary (always great in my opinion) offers helpful clarity on this section of Jeremiah as well. David you may find it helpful to read this as well.

From Matthew Henry's Commentary:

That God will renew his covenant with them, so that all these blessings they shall have, not by providence only, but by promise, and thereby they shall be both sweetened and secured. But this covenant refers to gospel times, the latter days that shall come; for of gospel grace the apostle understands it (Heb. 8:8, Heb. 8:9 , etc.), where this whole passage is quoted as a summary of the covenant of grace made with believers in Jesus Christ. Observe, 1. Who the persons are with whom this covenant is made—with the house of Israel and Judah, with the gospel church, the Israel of God on which peace shall be (Gal. 6:16 ), with the spiritual seed of believing Abraham and praying Jacob. Judah and Israel had been two separate kingdoms, but were united after their return, in the joint favours God bestowed upon them; so Jews and Gentiles were in the gospel church and covenant. 2. What is the nature of this covenant in general: it is a new covenantand not according to the covenant made with them when they came out of Egypt; not as if that made with them at Mount Sinai were a covenant of nature and innocency, such as was made with Adam in the day he was created; no, that was, for substance, a covenant of grace, but it was a dark dispensation of that covenant in comparison with this in gospel times. Sinners were saved by that covenant upon their repentance, and faith in a Messiah to come, whose blood, confirming that covenant, was typified by that of the legal sacrifices, Ex. 24:7, Ex. 24:8 . Yet this may upon many accounts be called new, in comparison with that; the ordinances and promises are more spiritual and heavenly, and the discoveries much more clear. That covenant God made with them when he took them by the hand, as they had been blind, or lame, or weak, to lead them out of the land of Egypt, which covenant they broke. Observe, It was God that made this covenant, but it was the people that broke it; for our salvation is of God, but our sin and ruin are of ourselves. It was an aggravation of their breach of it that God was a husband to them, that he had espoused them to himself; it was a marriage-covenant that was between him and them, which they broke by idolatry, that spiritual adultery. It is a great aggravation of our treacherous departures from God that he has been a husband to us, a loving, tender, careful husband, faithful to us, and yet we false to him. 3. What are the particular articles of his covenant. They all contain spiritual blessings; not, "I will give them the land of Canaan and a numerous issue,’’ but, "I will give them pardon, and peace, and grace, good heads and good hearts.’’ He promises, (1.) That he will incline them to their duty; I will put my law in their inward part and write it in their heart; not, I will give them a new law (as Mr. Gataker well observes), for Christ came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil it; but the law shall be written in their hearts by the finger of the Spirit as formerly it was written in the tables of stone. God writes his law in the hearts of all believers, makes it ready and familiar to them, at hand when they have occasion to use it, as that which is written in the heart, Prov. 3:3 . He makes them in care to observe it, for that which we are solicitous about is said to lie near our hearts. He works in them a disposition to obedience, a conformity of thought and affection to the rules of the divine law, as that of the copy to the original. This is here promised, and ought to be prayed for, that our duty may be done conscientiously and with delight.

(2.) That he will take them into relation to himself: I will be their God, a God all-sufficient to them, and they shall be my people, a loyal obedient people to me. God’s being to us a God is the summary of all happiness; heaven itself is no more, Heb. 11:16 ; Rev. 21:3 . Our being to him a people may be taken either as the condition on our part (those and those only shall have God to be to them a God that are truly willing to engage themselves to be to him a people) or as a further branch of the promise that God will by his grace make us his people, a willing people, in the day of his power; and, whoever are his people, it is his grace that makes them so. (3.) That there shall be an abundance of the knowledge of God among all sorts of people, and this will have an influence upon all good: for those that rightly know God’s name will seek him, and serve him, and put their trust in him (v. 34): All shall know me; all shall be welcome to the knowledge of God and shall have the means of that knowledge; his ways shall be known upon earth, whereas, for many ages, in Judah only was God known. Many more shall know God than did in the Old Testament times, which among the Gentiles were times of ignorance, the true God being to them an unknown God. The things of God shall in gospel times be made more plain and intelligible, and level to the capacities of the meanest, than they were while Moses had a veil upon his face. There shall be such a general knowledge of God that there shall not be so much need as had formerly been of teaching. Some take it as a hyperbolical expression (and the dulness of the Jews needed such expressions to awaken them), designed only to show that the knowledge of God in gospel times should vastly exceed that knowledge of him which they had under the law. Or perhaps it intimates that in gospel times there shall be such great plenty of public preaching, statedly and constantly, by men authorized and appointed to preach the word in season and out of season, much beyond what was under the law, that there shall be less need than there was then of fraternal teaching, by a neighbour and a brother. The priests preached but now and then, and in the temple, and to a few in comparison; but now all shall or may know God by frequenting the assemblies of Christians, wherein, through all parts of the church, the good knowledge of God shall be taught. Some give this sense of it (Mr. Gataker mentions it), That many shall have such clearness of understanding in the things of God that they may seem rather to have been taught by some immediate irradiation than by any means of instruction. In short, the things of God shall by the gospel of Christ be brought to a clearer light than ever (2 Tim. 1:10 ), and the people of God shall by the grace of Christ be brought to a clearer sight of those things than ever, Eph. 1:17, Eph. 1:18 . (4.) That, in order to all these blessings, sin shall be pardoned. This is made the reason of all the rest: For I will forgive their iniquity, will not impute that to them, nor deal with them according to the desert of that, will forgive and forget: I will remember their sin no more. It is sin that keeps good things from us, that stops the current of God’s favours; let sin betaken away by pardoning mercy, and the obstruction is removed, and divine grace runs down like a river, like a mighty stream.
 

Grant

Puritan Board Senior
Let's keep courteous as maybe our post may serve to challenge David (as many of the post on this site have served to challenge me)..maybe we would be so blessed as to serve to aid (as a vessel) in sanctification as iron sharpens iron.:cheers2:
After all "A Wizard is never early or late, but arrives precisely when he means to"
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Matthew Henry's Commentary (always great in my opinion) offers helpful clarity on this section of Jeremiah as well. David you may find it helpful to read this as well.

From Matthew Henry's Commentary:

That God will renew his covenant with them, so that all these blessings they shall have, not by providence only, but by promise, and thereby they shall be both sweetened and secured. But this covenant refers to gospel times, the latter days that shall come; for of gospel grace the apostle understands it (Heb. 8:8, Heb. 8:9 , etc.), where this whole passage is quoted as a summary of the covenant of grace made with believers in Jesus Christ. Observe, 1. Who the persons are with whom this covenant is made—with the house of Israel and Judah, with the gospel church, the Israel of God on which peace shall be (Gal. 6:16 ), with the spiritual seed of believing Abraham and praying Jacob. Judah and Israel had been two separate kingdoms, but were united after their return, in the joint favours God bestowed upon them; so Jews and Gentiles were in the gospel church and covenant. 2. What is the nature of this covenant in general: it is a new covenantand not according to the covenant made with them when they came out of Egypt; not as if that made with them at Mount Sinai were a covenant of nature and innocency, such as was made with Adam in the day he was created; no, that was, for substance, a covenant of grace, but it was a dark dispensation of that covenant in comparison with this in gospel times. Sinners were saved by that covenant upon their repentance, and faith in a Messiah to come, whose blood, confirming that covenant, was typified by that of the legal sacrifices, Ex. 24:7, Ex. 24:8 . Yet this may upon many accounts be called new, in comparison with that; the ordinances and promises are more spiritual and heavenly, and the discoveries much more clear. That covenant God made with them when he took them by the hand, as they had been blind, or lame, or weak, to lead them out of the land of Egypt, which covenant they broke. Observe, It was God that made this covenant, but it was the people that broke it; for our salvation is of God, but our sin and ruin are of ourselves. It was an aggravation of their breach of it that God was a husband to them, that he had espoused them to himself; it was a marriage-covenant that was between him and them, which they broke by idolatry, that spiritual adultery. It is a great aggravation of our treacherous departures from God that he has been a husband to us, a loving, tender, careful husband, faithful to us, and yet we false to him. 3. What are the particular articles of his covenant. They all contain spiritual blessings; not, "I will give them the land of Canaan and a numerous issue,’’ but, "I will give them pardon, and peace, and grace, good heads and good hearts.’’ He promises, (1.) That he will incline them to their duty; I will put my law in their inward part and write it in their heart; not, I will give them a new law (as Mr. Gataker well observes), for Christ came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil it; but the law shall be written in their hearts by the finger of the Spirit as formerly it was written in the tables of stone. God writes his law in the hearts of all believers, makes it ready and familiar to them, at hand when they have occasion to use it, as that which is written in the heart, Prov. 3:3 . He makes them in care to observe it, for that which we are solicitous about is said to lie near our hearts. He works in them a disposition to obedience, a conformity of thought and affection to the rules of the divine law, as that of the copy to the original. This is here promised, and ought to be prayed for, that our duty may be done conscientiously and with delight.

(2.) That he will take them into relation to himself: I will be their God, a God all-sufficient to them, and they shall be my people, a loyal obedient people to me. God’s being to us a God is the summary of all happiness; heaven itself is no more, Heb. 11:16 ; Rev. 21:3 . Our being to him a people may be taken either as the condition on our part (those and those only shall have God to be to them a God that are truly willing to engage themselves to be to him a people) or as a further branch of the promise that God will by his grace make us his people, a willing people, in the day of his power; and, whoever are his people, it is his grace that makes them so. (3.) That there shall be an abundance of the knowledge of God among all sorts of people, and this will have an influence upon all good: for those that rightly know God’s name will seek him, and serve him, and put their trust in him (v. 34): All shall know me; all shall be welcome to the knowledge of God and shall have the means of that knowledge; his ways shall be known upon earth, whereas, for many ages, in Judah only was God known. Many more shall know God than did in the Old Testament times, which among the Gentiles were times of ignorance, the true God being to them an unknown God. The things of God shall in gospel times be made more plain and intelligible, and level to the capacities of the meanest, than they were while Moses had a veil upon his face. There shall be such a general knowledge of God that there shall not be so much need as had formerly been of teaching. Some take it as a hyperbolical expression (and the dulness of the Jews needed such expressions to awaken them), designed only to show that the knowledge of God in gospel times should vastly exceed that knowledge of him which they had under the law. Or perhaps it intimates that in gospel times there shall be such great plenty of public preaching, statedly and constantly, by men authorized and appointed to preach the word in season and out of season, much beyond what was under the law, that there shall be less need than there was then of fraternal teaching, by a neighbour and a brother. The priests preached but now and then, and in the temple, and to a few in comparison; but now all shall or may know God by frequenting the assemblies of Christians, wherein, through all parts of the church, the good knowledge of God shall be taught. Some give this sense of it (Mr. Gataker mentions it), That many shall have such clearness of understanding in the things of God that they may seem rather to have been taught by some immediate irradiation than by any means of instruction. In short, the things of God shall by the gospel of Christ be brought to a clearer light than ever (2 Tim. 1:10 ), and the people of God shall by the grace of Christ be brought to a clearer sight of those things than ever, Eph. 1:17, Eph. 1:18 . (4.) That, in order to all these blessings, sin shall be pardoned. This is made the reason of all the rest: For I will forgive their iniquity, will not impute that to them, nor deal with them according to the desert of that, will forgive and forget: I will remember their sin no more. It is sin that keeps good things from us, that stops the current of God’s favours; let sin betaken away by pardoning mercy, and the obstruction is removed, and divine grace runs down like a river, like a mighty stream.
The new Covenant was a future event to come for Israel, not national Israel of the flesh, but Spiritual Israel , both Jews/gentiles, who received Jesus as the Lord. Jesus stated that he MUST fulfill all things, and that His blood was shed for the full remission of sins, and to have the NC now established between God and man, correct?
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Let's keep courteous as maybe our post may serve to challenge David (as many of the post on this site have served to challenge me)..maybe we would be so blessed as to serve to aid (as a vessel) in sanctification as iron sharpens iron.:cheers2:
After all "A Wizard is never early or late, but arrives precisely when he means to"
I actually do learn from what my brethren are teaching me from the scriptures, just maybe not fast enough for some.
 

Grant

Puritan Board Senior
The new Covenant was a future event to come for Israel, not national Israel of the flesh, but Spiritual Israel , both Jews/gentiles, who received Jesus as the Lord. Jesus stated that he MUST fulfill all things, and that His blood was shed for the full remission of sins, and to have the NC now established between God and man, correct?
I think I can generally agree with those statements yes, but none of that takes away from the NC being the consummation (It is finished) of the overall CoG.

Read the Matthew Henry commentary. It helped me at least. OT (elect) and NT (elect) have always been saved the same way in my opinion, by faith in Christ alone and by the grace of God alone (redemption applied by the HS in OT and NT)..that is the formula of the CoG..made most fully clear in the NC. If the OT saints only needed to do law (which was impossible since the fall on their own), but needed not redemption by grace alone, then none of our dead OT brothers/sisters could have ever been saved....less you believe there is more than 1 way of salvation after the fall. Job/David/ Moses did not enter the CoG after Christ stated "it is finished"...no they were apart of the CoG before the 12 apostles (minus Judas) were a part of the CoG.

I hope this helps. As always I am open to corrections.
 
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Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
To be accurate, both Ezekiel and Jeremiah are a now and not yet prophesy-much like the book of Revelation.

Ezekiel was written in the 5th century BC and Jer 6th BC.

John Owen writes on the HS and believers:

“Sixthly, Wherefore, God’s sealing of believers with the Holy Spirit is his gracious communication of the Holy Ghost unto them, so to act his divine power in them as to enable them unto all the duties of their holy calling; evidencing them to be accepted with him both unto themselves and others, and asserting their preservation unto eternal salvation. The effects of this sealing are gracious operations of the Holy Spirit in and upon believers; but the sealing itself is the communication of the Spirit unto them. They are sealed with the Spirit. And farther to evidence the nature of it, with the truth of our declaration of this privilege, we may observe, — 1. That when any persons are so effectually called as to become true believers, they are brought into many new relations, — as, to God himself, as his children; unto Jesus Christ, as his members; unto all saints and angels in the families of God above and below, as brethren; and are called to many new works, duties, and uses, which before they knew nothing of.

They are brought into a new world, erected by the new creation; and which way soever they look or turn themselves, they say, “Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” So it is with every one that is made a new creature in Christ Jesus, 2 Corinthians 5:17. In this state and condition, wherein a man hath new principles put within him, new relations contracted about him, new duties presented unto him, and a new deportment in all things required of him, how shall he be able to behave himself aright, and answer the condition and holy station wherein he is placed? This no man can do of himself, for “who is sufficient for these things?” Wherefore, — 2. In this stateGod owns them, and communicates unto them his Holy Spirit, to fit them for their relations, to enable them unto their duties, to act their new principles, and every way to discharge the work they are called unto, even as their head, the Lord Christ, was unto hia God doth not now give unto them “the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind,” 2 Timothy 1:7. And hereby cloth God seal them; for, — (1.) Hereby he gives his testimony unto them that they are his, owned by him, accepted with him, his sons or children, — which is his seal; for if they were not so, he would never have given his Holy Spirit unto them.”

Without the Holy Spirit continuously in and at work in our hearts, we will immediately apostatize.

You must think about total depravity; if the Holy Spirit doesn’t indwell a man, they cannot be NOT totally depraved. If one is totally depraved, they WILL apostatize immediately.



If you believe Old Testament saints believed by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit but kept believing without the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit then saints in the OT were not as depraved as we are, as they did not need the ongoing indwelling work of the Holy Spirit. This discussion really then is a debate about the nature of total human depravity in the Old Testament. Nothing less than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit keeps a true believer believing, repenting, and obeying. To deny that the Old Testament saint had the benefit of the indwelling Spirit of God redefines total depravity, is sick with dispensationalism and rejects a biblical perseverance of the saint.



B.B. Warfield wrote, “shall we say that only in the New Testament times men are dead in sin, and only in these days of the completed Gospel and of the New Covenant do men need the almighty power of God to raise them from their spiritual death? Certainly the Bible lends no support to such a notion.”

John Owen writes on the state of men outside of the indwelling of the Spirit:

“All men by nature, not enlightened, not renewed in their minds by the saving, effectual operation of the Holy Spirit, are in a state of darkness and blindness with respect unto God and spiritual things, with the way of pleasing him and living unto him. Be men otherwise and in other things never so wise, knowing, learned, and skillful, in spiritual things they are dark, blind, ignorant, unless they are renewed in the spirit of their minds by the Holy Ghost. This is a matter which the world cannot endure to hear of, and it is ready to fall into a tumult upon its mention. They think it but an artifice which some weak men have got up, to reflect on and condemn them who are wiser than themselves On the like occasion did the Pharisees ask of our Savior that question with pride and scorn, “Are we blind also?” John 9:40. But as he lets them know that their presumption of light and knowledge would serve only to aggravate their sin and condemnation, verse 41; so he plainly tells them, that notwithstanding all their boasting, “they had neither heard the voice of God at any time, nor seen his shape,” chapter 5:37.

Some at present talk much about the power of the intellectual faculties of our souls, as though they were neither debased, corrupted, impaired, nor depraved. All that disadvantage which is befallen our nature by the entrance of sin is but in “the disorder of the affections and the inferior sensitive parts of the soul, which are apt to tumultuate and rebel against that pure untainted light which is in the mind!” And this they speak of it without respect unto its renovation by the Holy Spirit; for if they include that also, they are in their discourses most notorious confused triflers.

Indeed, some of them write as if they had never deigned once to consult with the Scriptures, and others are plainly gone over into the tents of the Pelagians. But, setting aside their modern artifices of confident boasting, contemptuous reproaches, and scurrilous railings, it is no difficult undertaking so to demonstrate the depravation of the minds of men by nature, and their impotency thence to discern spiritual things in a spiritual manner, without a saving, effectual work of the Holy Spirit in their renovation, as that the proudest and most petulant of them shall not be able to return anything of a solid answer thereunto. And herein we plead for nothing but the known doctrine of the ancient catholic church, declared in the writings of the most learned fathers and determinations of councils against the Pelagians, whose errors and heresies are again revived among us by a crew of Socinianized Arminians.”
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
To be accurate, both Ezekiel and Jeremiah are a now and not yet prophesy-much like the book of Revelation.

Ezekiel was written in the 5th century BC and Jer 6th BC.

John Owen writes on the HS and believers:

“Sixthly, Wherefore, God’s sealing of believers with the Holy Spirit is his gracious communication of the Holy Ghost unto them, so to act his divine power in them as to enable them unto all the duties of their holy calling; evidencing them to be accepted with him both unto themselves and others, and asserting their preservation unto eternal salvation. The effects of this sealing are gracious operations of the Holy Spirit in and upon believers; but the sealing itself is the communication of the Spirit unto them. They are sealed with the Spirit. And farther to evidence the nature of it, with the truth of our declaration of this privilege, we may observe, — 1. That when any persons are so effectually called as to become true believers, they are brought into many new relations, — as, to God himself, as his children; unto Jesus Christ, as his members; unto all saints and angels in the families of God above and below, as brethren; and are called to many new works, duties, and uses, which before they knew nothing of.

They are brought into a new world, erected by the new creation; and which way soever they look or turn themselves, they say, “Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” So it is with every one that is made a new creature in Christ Jesus, 2 Corinthians 5:17. In this state and condition, wherein a man hath new principles put within him, new relations contracted about him, new duties presented unto him, and a new deportment in all things required of him, how shall he be able to behave himself aright, and answer the condition and holy station wherein he is placed? This no man can do of himself, for “who is sufficient for these things?” Wherefore, — 2. In this stateGod owns them, and communicates unto them his Holy Spirit, to fit them for their relations, to enable them unto their duties, to act their new principles, and every way to discharge the work they are called unto, even as their head, the Lord Christ, was unto hia God doth not now give unto them “the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind,” 2 Timothy 1:7. And hereby cloth God seal them; for, — (1.) Hereby he gives his testimony unto them that they are his, owned by him, accepted with him, his sons or children, — which is his seal; for if they were not so, he would never have given his Holy Spirit unto them.”

Without the Holy Spirit continuously in and at work in our hearts, we will immediately apostatize.

You must think about total depravity; if the Holy Spirit doesn’t indwell a man, they cannot be NOT totally depraved. If one is totally depraved, they WILL apostatize immediately.



If you believe Old Testament saints believed by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit but kept believing without the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit then saints in the OT were not as depraved as we are, as they did not need the ongoing indwelling work of the Holy Spirit. This discussion really then is a debate about the nature of total human depravity in the Old Testament. Nothing less than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit keeps a true believer believing, repenting, and obeying. To deny that the Old Testament saint had the benefit of the indwelling Spirit of God redefines total depravity, is sick with dispensationalism and rejects a biblical perseverance of the saint.



B.B. Warfield wrote, “shall we say that only in the New Testament times men are dead in sin, and only in these days of the completed Gospel and of the New Covenant do men need the almighty power of God to raise them from their spiritual death? Certainly the Bible lends no support to such a notion.”

John Owen writes on the state of men outside of the indwelling of the Spirit:

“All men by nature, not enlightened, not renewed in their minds by the saving, effectual operation of the Holy Spirit, are in a state of darkness and blindness with respect unto God and spiritual things, with the way of pleasing him and living unto him. Be men otherwise and in other things never so wise, knowing, learned, and skillful, in spiritual things they are dark, blind, ignorant, unless they are renewed in the spirit of their minds by the Holy Ghost. This is a matter which the world cannot endure to hear of, and it is ready to fall into a tumult upon its mention. They think it but an artifice which some weak men have got up, to reflect on and condemn them who are wiser than themselves On the like occasion did the Pharisees ask of our Savior that question with pride and scorn, “Are we blind also?” John 9:40. But as he lets them know that their presumption of light and knowledge would serve only to aggravate their sin and condemnation, verse 41; so he plainly tells them, that notwithstanding all their boasting, “they had neither heard the voice of God at any time, nor seen his shape,” chapter 5:37.

Some at present talk much about the power of the intellectual faculties of our souls, as though they were neither debased, corrupted, impaired, nor depraved. All that disadvantage which is befallen our nature by the entrance of sin is but in “the disorder of the affections and the inferior sensitive parts of the soul, which are apt to tumultuate and rebel against that pure untainted light which is in the mind!” And this they speak of it without respect unto its renovation by the Holy Spirit; for if they include that also, they are in their discourses most notorious confused triflers.

Indeed, some of them write as if they had never deigned once to consult with the Scriptures, and others are plainly gone over into the tents of the Pelagians. But, setting aside their modern artifices of confident boasting, contemptuous reproaches, and scurrilous railings, it is no difficult undertaking so to demonstrate the depravation of the minds of men by nature, and their impotency thence to discern spiritual things in a spiritual manner, without a saving, effectual work of the Holy Spirit in their renovation, as that the proudest and most petulant of them shall not be able to return anything of a solid answer thereunto. And herein we plead for nothing but the known doctrine of the ancient catholic church, declared in the writings of the most learned fathers and determinations of councils against the Pelagians, whose errors and heresies are again revived among us by a crew of Socinianized Arminians.”
I take it to be referring to time of Christ, and also dealing with time of his Second Coming.
 
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