Covenant Children Today?

[ChristopherPaul]

This is indeed an interesting topic. I hear many say how godless our generation is, but then I think, well who raised this godless seed?

Living in Princeton NJ for the last six years, you would think from the rich reformed heritage of that region of our nation, that there would be confessional churches throughout. In reality it is quite the opposite. Liberalism is rampant and confessional churches are few and far between. Many of the confessional churches that are in the area are liberal in comparison to many outside of the North East. At my former PCA church in Princeton, right before we moved, we had a couple join the congregation who just relocated from Texas. In Texas they attended a PCUSA church, but made the statement that this new PCA church they now go to in Princeton is noticeably more liberal than their former PCUSA. That is quite telling of that entire metropolitan area between Philadelphia through New York City and up through Boston. I was just talking with a confessional friend who is in the Boston area. He attends an independent, non-denominational church because there are no confessional churches close to him. Considering the rich heritage from Philly to Princeton to Connecticut and Boston, that is truly sad.

 

[ChristopherPaul]

These kind of arguments are so pointless. First, I see Baptists saying "You can't really call us a denomination because we're independent" and then I hear them say "Well, the Baptists are the ones that have remained mostly faithful compared to the mainline Presbyterians...."

Good point. Technically the majority of the shallow, easy believism, arminian dispensationalist broad evangelicals that saturate this country (Osteens, Hagees, Warrens, Hybels, et all) consider themselves “Baptists”. Throwing the numbers argument around is futile.

You know who outdoes both of us: Roman Catholics. Now that's a sect that's been uncompromisingly dedicated to the same doctrine for a long, long time!

It makes sense that a works-based salvation promoting church would stay visibly united – just think of the consequences!

 

[ChristopherPaul]

well, my church father can beat up your church father!

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

Would you like to see what covenantal succession I sprang from?

Great great grandfather, committed suicide and wasn't a believer.
Great grandfather, died at 54 from multiple heart attacks and was not a believer.
Grandfather, believes in ghosts and has never attended church until he remarried this Catholic woman and now goes to mass half asleep.
Dad, workoholic with a civil religion.
Me, Reformed Presbyterian, adherent to the Doctrines of Grace, covenantal, anti-pagan.

Election anyone? I certainly didn't grow up this way.

 

[elnwood]

These kind of arguments are so pointless. First, I see Baptists saying "You can't really call us a denomination because we're independent" and then I hear them say "Well, the Baptists are the ones that have remained mostly faithful compared to the mainline Presbyterians...."

It's really not that confusing. Baptists form associations of independent churches, and we have a common belief system, but we don't have a denominational hierarchy. There is no "Baptist Church" beyond the local level, in the sense that Presbyterians will talk about "The Presbyterian Church."

We all know and can say that the Puritans (who were independent and congregational) went apostate, so I don't see why we can't say the Baptists remained faithful. So I don't see how those statements are in conflict.

 

[elnwood]

Well, heavens gate, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Branch-Davidians, People's Temple, Word of Faith, Moonies, &c, &c, &c, are all baptists.

So I wouldn't be braggin either

We're talking about Christian groups and apostasy. Those aren't trinitarian baptisms, which Presbyterians agree is a different baptism altogether. And there are plenty of apostate trinitarian paedobaptist groups.

 

[Blueridge Believer]

The largest cult in the world, Rome, does not practice believers baptism.

 

[Poimen]

I see the promise of faithfulness to children to mean faithfulness to spiritual children, not physical. If God made his promises to physical children, then would God have broken his promise if the physical children did not receive the inheritance? May we never say that God is not faithful to his promises!

This objection is answered in Romans 9.

vss. 3-5 "For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,[a] my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen."

It is clear that to the promises were delivered to the 'kinsmen according to the flesh.' You are correct, however, in pointing out that the promises ultimately only applied to the spiritual children.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Someone said that Baptists beat up the Presbyterians re. missionary zeal.

The numbers do not agree.

I don't have the stats, but (ignoring history for the moment) head-for-head membership vs. missionaries, the Presbyterians/Reformed are the champs.

Not only does the PCA have one of the largest missionary forces in the world, but other churches such as the OPC, which had its nucleus in missionary zeal, send missionary-ministers (were not talking about week-long excursions) at tremendous ratios to total membership.

The OPC has a denominational budget of just over 2.5 million dollars of which the vast majority goes to World (the majority) and Home Missions (and a HQ that employs all of about 8-10 people), just over 25,000 members (including covenant children), and they fully fund about 10 missionary families, and partially as many more. And of course, that doesn't include other missionaries supported directly by the Presbyteries, and still more by particular churches. That little church is supporting worldwide missions at $1000 per head including infants. What are the Baptists doing again?


Look, I'm not saying this to go head to head with anyone. Just saying that its not really productive to start bidding wars in matters pertaining to the Kingdom, y'knowadaymean?
Peace.

 

[Blueridge Believer]

I wish they'd send some down here and help clean out these charismatics!

 

[VictorBravo]

Election anyone? I certainly didn't grow up this way.

Very similar to my (and my wife's) story. Neither of us had anything going for us in terms of tradition. Atheism, masonism, occultism, rationalism, and quite literally any other ism I can think of except Hinduism.

I once counted out my extended family: more than 50 cousins, 24 aunts and uncles, 4 grandparents. Out of that grand number there are or were a total of 4 (not counting my wife and me) who even professed Christ. Of those, three are Charismatics Arminians. The remaining one is a PCUSA minister who is part of the confessional movement there.

Election indeed.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Scott,

I don't have a problem with the idea of regeneration occurring at a time of God's choosing and we know that God can regenerate from the womb. My problem is with the idea that He usually does. It's pretty hard to see that borne out. You would expect to usually see long strains of Covenantal faithfulness.

Rich,
I don't know if that is necessarily true. I don't believe HH is saying that all covenant children are regenerated at birth but that there is a good possibility, based upon His promise, that the elect are regenerated @ birth. Conversion is another matter. Who am I to question Gods faithfulness. he was that faith ful w/ John, why not all elect infants? I would rather assume this fact than otherwise. I have never seen an elect person who has not come to faith.

 

[Poimen]

Yep, that's right.

So, when Baptists bring out the Rome charge (as they are wont to do), I bring out the Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Moonie, Branch Davidian, &c, card.

As Elnwood said, his comments "don;t prove anything either way."

He was being rhetorical. So, that's my rhetorical comeback to the rhetoric baptists have used for a long, long time.

I'll remember that one next time I am debating with a Baptist over baptism.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Joel Beeke, Puritan Reformed Spirituality, p. 212 (concerning John Brown of Haddington):

A Spiritual Dynasty

Brown had many children, some of whom became prominent Christian leaders. His son John (1754-1832) was minister of Whitburn for fifty-five years and was a prolific devotional writer; Ebenezer (d. 1836) was a prominent preacher at Inverkeithing, Fife, for fifty-six years; Samuel (1779-1839) helped start circulating libraries; and William (1783-1863) was a historian of missions and an excellent biographer of his father. Grandson John Brown (1784-1858) served as pastor at Broughton Place United Presbyterian Church, Edinburgh, and was Professor of Exegetical Theology in the United Secession and United Presbyterian College, Edinburgh. Great-grandson Robert Johnston (d. 1918) was a professor in the United Presbyterian College, Edinburgh, and United Free Church College, Aberdeen. Another great-grandson, John (Rab) Brown (1810-82), became a medical doctor and writer. And great-great-grandsons John (1818-92) and David Cairns (1862-1946) became outstanding Presbyterian teachers and writers. Brown's descendants so respected him that some traveled to Scotland from the United States in 1987 for events marking the bicentennial of Brown's death.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

I read recently that Robert M. Kingdon said that "I descend, to be sure, from a line of Protestant missionaries, ministers and religious educators..." (presidential address delivered at the annual meeting of the American Society of Church History, 28 December 1980; published as The Church: Ideology or Institution in Church History, Vol. 50, 1981).