Could Calvin Be Ordained in Your Presbytery?

[Ben Chomp]

I post this in the general theology forum because it touches on multiple theological and ecclesial issues.

Could John Calvin be ordained in your presbytery? He probably could not be ordained in the PCA. This is because Calvin did not believe that Sunday had to be the Christian Sabbath. It appears he had a looser view on the Sabbath and would theoretically allow for churches to celebrate the Sabbath on any day that seemed best. This does not cohere with the Westminster Standards and I believe that the PCA GA has ruled that men should not be ordained who deny that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath.

But this also means that John Calvin could not be ordained in the PCA, which is just a little troubling. Could Calvin be ordained in your presbytery?

 

[RamistThomist]

He probably could not be ordained in the PCA. This is because Calvin did not believe that Sunday had to be the Christian Sabbath

I think Calvin's odds are pretty good, being that he didn't publicly come out as homosexual.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Questions of this nature are silly for several reasons:

1) It assumes that John Calvin is the standard of truth; he is not.

2) It assumes that Calvin would not have changed his mind after receiving further instruction, which is a deeply cynical supposition.

3) It forgets that we would not permit the likes of Augustine to be ordained without the forsaking of some of his oddities as well.

 

[Ben Chomp]

Questions of this nature are silly for several reasons:

1) It assumes that John Calvin is the standard of truth; he is not.

I certainly don't make that assumption when I ask the question. I just think it is interesting that one of our most important theological forefathers could not be ordained in our presbytery. It's like how Abraham Kuyper would never be invited today to give the prestigious Kuyper Lectures at Princeton nor given the Kuyper award today. If Kuyper couldn't be given the Kuyper award, maybe something is askew!

2) It assumes that Calvin would not have changed his mind after receiving further instruction, which is a deeply cynical supposition.

Do you think that Calvin held his Sabbath views because he lacked information that we have?

3) It forgets that we would not permit the likes of Augustine to be ordained without the forsaking of some of his oddities as well.

Augustine is far more historically remote than Calvin, though. Presbyterianism comes from Calvin.

 

[Joshua]

Could Calvin be ordained in your presbytery?

Uhh . . . No!

He's been dead for over 400 years. DUH!

 

[Romans922]

This is because Calvin did not believe that Sunday had to be the Christian Sabbath. It appears he had a looser view on the Sabbath and would theoretically allow for churches to celebrate the Sabbath on any day that seemed best.

Agree with everyone above I think...

Calvin did not have a loose view of the Sabbath whatsoever. One merely needs to read his sermons on Gen. 2 and Deuteronomy to see that this is false. Most people in their reading of Calvin look at his Institutes only where he was primarily looking at the cermeonial aspects of the Sabbath, and completely fail to interact with his sermons and the applications he makes of the 4th commandment to the Christian life. Gaffin fails on this too in his book "Calvin and the Sabbath".

 

[Ben Chomp]

Agree with everyone above I think...

Calvin did not have a loose view of the Sabbath whatsoever. One merely needs to read his sermons on Gen. 2 and Deuteronomy to see that this is false. Most people in their reading of Calvin look at his Institutes only where he was primarily looking at the cermeonial aspects of the Sabbath, and completely fail to interact with his sermons and the applications he makes of the 4th commandment to the Christian life. Gaffin fails on this too in his book "Calvin and the Sabbath".

From Calvin's commentary on Galatians 4:10 -

"When certain days are represented as holy in themselves, when one day is distinguished from another on religious grounds, when holy days are reckoned a part of divine worship, then days are improperly observed. The Jewish Sabbath, new moons, and other festivals, were earnestly pressed by the false apostles, because they had been appointed by the law. When we, in the present age, intake a distinction of days, we do not represent them as necessary, and thus lay a snare for the conscience; we do not reckon one day to be more holy than another; we do not make days to be the same thing with religion and the worship of God; but merely attend to the preservation of order and harmony. The observance of days among us is a free service, and void of all superstition.”

That looks to me like he would not be in line with the Westminster Sabbatarian view. Could you provide a quote from him demonstrating that he is?

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Do you think that Calvin held his Sabbath views because he lacked information that we have?

The doctrine has been developed more comprehensively since his day.

Augustine is far more historically remote than Calvin, though. Presbyterianism comes from Calvin.

And Calvinism comes from Augustine.

 

[Jake]

I would hope that the Reformed church is one that continues to reform. The Westminster Assembly members in particular wrote and thought a lot about the Sabbath and thinking on the topic matured from the time of Calvin. I would expect Calvin today to first interact with their works. I think Anselm, Augustine, Calvin, etc. served the church well in their days, but they are coming from another time so they probably wouldn't be ready to drop in and answer our presbytery exams built on the foundation many generations of theological issues and interacting with modern issues.

You could also look at this from the perspective of awareness and understanding of sin. I think we have a better understanding of the sin of man-stealing (and related issues like chattel slavery) than some did in the past. Another example is abortion, which many Evangelicals, including in the OPC, were more open to back in the early 1970s than they are today. Largely this was because of a lack of understanding and clarity that we now have today.

One other interesting point, if we remove the anachronistic element a bit. Calvin actually disagreed with the Belgic Confession on the issue of Pauline authorship of the letter of Hebrews. Some strictly confessional churches which hold to the Belgic Confession do not allow an exception here and so this might limit Calvin's ability to be ordained there: "In your confessional statement, we have not noticed anything which does not agree with the holy oracles of God and the orthodox faith. Therefore, we willingly approve the summary of the doctrine contained in it. However, we would wish the letter to the Hebrews was not attributed to Paul, for we are convinced by strong arguments that the author is someone else." [source]

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

Presbyterianism comes from Calvin.

And all the Baptists and Congregationalists say, "Yeah! We know!"

 

[TylerRay]

Could John Calvin be ordained in your presbytery?

Nope. He's dead.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Calvin would be too strict a Sabbatarian for the PCA, and he'd be done as far as ordination particularly if he denied he ever played lawn bowling on the Lord's Day.
From my preface to “John Calvin’s Letters to the Ministers of Montbéliard (1543–1544): The Genevan Reformer’s Advice and Views of the Liturgical Calendar,” The Confessional Presbyterian 13 (2017), 199, footnote 14.

Farel and Calvin wished “to establish the sabbatarian principle as the law of Geneva.” Thomas Lambert, “Preaching, Praying and Policing the Reform in Sixteenth-Century Geneva.” Ph.D. dissertation (University of Wisconsin, 1998), 190. This early Sabbatarianism was not as developed as that of English Puritanism and Scottish Presbyterianism, but it is clear Calvin not only shares a practical agreement with how the Sabbath was to be kept, but stands much closer theologically to the later views than is usually granted. On Calvin’s ‘practical’ Sabbatarianism see John H. Primus, “Calvin and the Puritan Sabbath: A Comparative Study,” in Exploring The Heritage Of John Calvin: Essays In Honor Of John Bratt, ed. David E. Holwerda (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1976), pp. 40–75; Holy Time: Moderate Puritanism and the Sabbath (Macon, GA: Mercer University Press, 1989); and “Sunday: The Lord’s day as a Sabbath—Protestant Perspectives on the Sabbath,” in The Sabbath in Jewish and Christian Tradition, ed. Tamara C. Eskenezi, Daniel J. Harrington, S. J., and William H. Sher (New York: Crossroads, 1991). For an argument that Calvin was closer theologically to later English Puritanism than generally conceded, see Stewart E. Lauer, “John Calvin, the Nascent Sabbatarian: A Reconsideration of Calvin’s View of Two Key Sabbath-Issues,” The Confessional Presbyterian 3 (2007); and reprinted in volume 12 (2016).

Lauer’s article is online here: http://www.cpjournal.com/articles-2...of-two-key-sabbath-issues-by-stewart-e-lauer/

An older version of my article on the Calvin bowling mythology is here: http://www.naphtali.com/articles/ch...hilistines-or-did-calvin-bowl-on-the-sabbath/
A slight update was published in the CPJ 6 (2010).

 

[Romans922]

Chris has it above with clarity.

From Calvin's commentary on Galatians 4:10 -

"When certain days are represented as holy in themselves, when one day is distinguished from another on religious grounds, when holy days are reckoned a part of divine worship, then days are improperly observed. The Jewish Sabbath, new moons, and other festivals, were earnestly pressed by the false apostles, because they had been appointed by the law. When we, in the present age, intake a distinction of days, we do not represent them as necessary, and thus lay a snare for the conscience; we do not reckon one day to be more holy than another; we do not make days to be the same thing with religion and the worship of God; but merely attend to the preservation of order and harmony. The observance of days among us is a free service, and void of all superstition.”

As I said previously, he's talking there about the ceremonial aspects. As I encouraged you before, go and read his sermons on Gn. 2:1ff and Deuteronomy.

 

[Bill The Baptist]

Uhh . . . No!

He's been dead for ver 400 years. DUH!

You mean to tell me that being alive is a requirement for being an ordained Presbyterian minister? I thought y’all were the frozen chosen

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I did a bit of digging around in my archives and found one quote that supports what @Romans922 is saying: John Calvin on the morality of the Sabbath.

 

[TylerRay]

You mean to tell me that being alive is a requirement for being an ordained Presbyterian minister? I thought y’all were the frozen chosen

Pastor Bill,
There's an important difference between being alive and being lively. If you'd like, I can present an extensive and detailed treatise on the subject, describing the various aspects of living, simpliciter, over against lively living. Such a prospect almost makes me want to straighten my back with excitement.

 

[Bill The Baptist]

Pastor Bill,
There's an important difference between being alive and being lively. If you'd like, I can present an extensive and detailed treatise on the subject, describing the various aspects of living, simpliciter, over against lively living. Such a prospect almost makes me want to straighten my back with excitement.

Only if you give it title that takes up a full page.

 

[Andrew35]

Not sure, but I always found it extremely ironic as a recovering fundamental Baptist that the Lord Jesus wouldn't be allowed to join most of our churches--him not being a teetotaler and all.

 

[ZackF]

I think I remember from a lecture by Robert Godfrey where Calvin negotiated several barrels of wine as part of his salary. Do callings today provide that option?

 

[alexandermsmith]

One other interesting point, if we remove the anachronistic element a bit. Calvin actually disagreed with the Belgic Confession on the issue of Pauline authorship of the letter of Hebrews. Some strictly confessional churches which hold to the Belgic Confession do not allow an exception here and so this might limit Calvin's ability to be ordained there: "In your confessional statement, we have not noticed anything which does not agree with the holy oracles of God and the orthodox faith. Therefore, we willingly approve the summary of the doctrine contained in it. However, we would wish the letter to the Hebrews was not attributed to Paul, for we are convinced by strong arguments that the author is someone else." [source]

Even the greats can be wrong from time to time.

 

[Blueridge Believer]

I doubt that Calvin or hardly any preacher from the 16-19 century could get ordained in the PCA or other denominations because his views on social issues would not be progressive enough.

 

[jwithnell]

Where in the world is Calvin saying he doesn't hold to the Christian sabbath? He rejected the Jewish Sabbath with its load added by the Pharisees and the days added by the Roman church.

 

[greenbaggins]

Yep, lots of misinformation out there on Calvin's view of the Sabbath. I think the question does involve a good deal of anachronism. It assumes that Calvin's way of expressing himself would look the same now as it did then. As many have pointed out, Calvin would have known and appreciated many of the writers who came after him, and would have engaged with them in order to formulate his views. Many doctrines came into greater clarity and precision after Calvin, though the post-Reformation Reformed authors are not departing from some supposedly clear stream.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

According to a trusted Bible Teacher that I greatly respect, Calvin had said that his Institutes are the true and full expression of his religious opinion and that anything that the conflicts between the Institutes and his commentaries etc. are to be resolved in favor of the Institutes.

In the Institutes (8.28 - 8.34), Calvin makes it pretty clear that he thinks that the principle of the Sabbath (rest, worship, focusing on God, etc.) remains, but that the specific fixed day is not important. He acknowledges that the early church chose Sunday for good reasons (and lists them), but also made it clear that he didn't think that it was strictly necessary to observe Sunday specifically and that he wouldn't pass judgment on a church that regularly attended to the duties of worship on a different day.

He lays this all out quite unambiguously in the Institutes.

 

[Ben Chomp]

Calvin would be too strict a Sabbatarian for the PCA, and he'd be done as far as ordination particularly if he denied he ever played lawn bowling on the Lord's Day.

I've never seen nor heard of a candidate being turned down in the PCA because they were a strict Sabbatarian or because they took no exceptions to the Standards. I took no exceptions to the Standards when I was being examined and my presbytery had no problem with that.

 

[Ben Chomp]

I doubt that Calvin or hardly any preacher from the 16-19 century could get ordained in the PCA or other denominations because his views on social issues would not be progressive enough.

Views on social issues are not typically examined when candidates come for licensure or ordination.

 

[Ben Chomp]

Where in the world is Calvin saying he doesn't hold to the Christian sabbath? He rejected the Jewish Sabbath with its load added by the Pharisees and the days added by the Roman church.

From his Institutes, Book 2, Chapter 8, paragraph 34:

"I do not cling so to the number seven as to bring the Church under bondage to it, nor do I condemn churches for holding their meetings on other solemn days, provided they guard against superstition. This they will do if they employ those days merely for the observance of discipline and regular order. The whole may be thus summed up: As the truth was delivered typically to the Jews, so it is imparted to us without figure; first, that during our whole lives we may aim at a constant rest from our own works, in order that the Lord may work in us by his Spirit; secondly that every individual, as he has opportunity, may diligently exercise himself in private, in pious meditation on the works of God, and, at the same time, that all may observe the legitimate order appointed by the Church, for the hearing of the word, the administration of the sacraments, and public prayer..."

He seems to have held the continental view. The big thing for Calvin was a weekly public day of worship. If that day was not Sunday, it didn't seem to bother him much.

 

[Ben Chomp]

As there is obviously some dispute as to what Calvin really believed, I welcome anyone to quote him to the contrary. An embedded quote and not a link would be helpful.

 

[TheOldCourse]

I've never seen nor heard of a candidate being turned down in the PCA because they were a strict Sabbatarian or because they took no exceptions to the Standards. I took no exceptions to the Standards when I was being examined and my presbytery had no problem with that.

Turned down? Perhaps not, but laughed at and criticized in disbelief for not taking any exceptions? Yes, that has certainly happened. I am personally familiar with those to which it has happened.

While Calvin did not hold the latter, more developed, Presbyterian position on the 4th commandment (nor on covenant theology, for another example of the development of Reformed theology), many in the PCA would still be under censure and discipline in Calvin's Geneva for their libertine treatment of the day. A good question to consider with yours is whether your pastor could be ordained in Calvin's Geneva.

Also, the "continental view," as opposed to the Presbyterian/Puritan one, is not a thing as has been demonstrated countless times here and elsewhere.

 

[Ben Chomp]

Also, the "continental view," as opposed to the Presbyterian/Puritan one, is not a thing as has been demonstrated countless times here and elsewhere.

I know many Dutch Calvinists who hold to the continental view. It's articulated in the Heidelberg Catechism.