Conversations on Calvinism and Arminianism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace' started by FrozenChosen, Jun 16, 2004.

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  1. FrozenChosen

    FrozenChosen Puritan Board Freshman

    I have begun to write a series of imaginary conversations in which a Calvinist, Cal, and an Arminian, Amy, begin to discuss the ideas of predestination/Calvinism.

    I would appreciate [b:ebb71c495a]any and all[/b:ebb71c495a] forms of feedback on these conversations. They are theological in nature, and I would like for someone else to make sure I'm not making mistakes I might not notice.

    I began doing this as kind of a way to help explain the virtues of Calvinism and the errors of Arminianism to my Arminian friends (which outnumber the Calvinists) in a kind of shepherding way.

    The conversations (well, now there's only one but more to come) can be found by clicking on the Theology Blog link in my signature.

    I will reproduce the first conversation here:


    ======
    Conversations, part I
    Daniel Pope

    Two students sat down in the student union cafeteria for lunch after class. One student was named Cal; the other student's name was Amy. Cal had been recently converted and ended up at a Presbyterian (PCA) church and Amy had grown up in the church as a Methodist.

    Cal began to eat his oriental chicken salad, while Amy tore ravenously into her hamburger. Cal sarcastically smirked "Watch out, don't be a glutton!"

    "That's OK, Christ died for my sins!" Amy chirped.

    "I sure hope so," Cal quipped under his breath.

    "What?" Amy asked. "Did I hear you right? I mean, I don't want to get into any kind of discussion, but did you imply that Christ didn't die for all the world's sin?"

    "Well, I think you got yourself a discussion if you want to keep talking on the subject. Well, I'll say it. I don't believe that Christ died for all the world's sin."

    "How can you say that?" Amy asked, with a hint of indignance.

    "Well, I realize the difference that we have in our theology. I'm a Calvinist, while you're an Arminian. But honestly, even under modern day Arminianism, you can't really say that Christ died for the sins of all."

    "Are you serious? I mean, everything the Bible says tells us that Christ died for us!" Amy was a little peeved.

    "Well, I'd like to see verse references. But there aren't any. The idea sounds good though, and very evangelistic. The only problem is that evangelism depends on the rest of your theology, and the idea that Christ died for everyone is bad theology," Cal responded.

    "Well, I don't have my Bible hear but I'm sure it says it" Amy huffed.

    "Heh, well OK. If Christ died for everyone's sin, then everyone is going to heaven, right?" Cal asked.

    "Well, no, a whole sixth of what Jesus talked about was hell." Amy responded.

    "That's correct, awesome. But why do they go to hell if they are forgiven?" Cal asked.

    Amy, seeing that Cal wasn't trying to be threatening, responded with confidence "Because they don't believe. By not believing they reject Christ's forgiveness."

    "Hold up a second," Cal said. "Is unbelief, or this rejection, a sin?"

    "I'm not sure where you're going with this...I guess I'd say yes," Amy responded. There seemed to be a little shake in her voice.

    "Then did Christ die for all sin?" Cal asked.

    "Well," said Amy, seeing the logical fallacy, "I guess unbelief isn't a sin." She was looking for a quick out.

    "Then why do people go to hell? If unbelief isn't a sin, then why is it being punished?" Cal asked.

    "I guess I'll have to think on that one," Amy responded. "I need to get to class."

    Amy picked up her books and left, hamburger half uneaten. Cal began to work on his salad again, but also picked at the untouched fries.

    [Edited on 6-17-2004 by FrozenChosen]
     
  2. smhbbag

    smhbbag Puritan Board Senior

    I find it incredibly sexist that you would automatically assume the Biblical one to be a guy and the arminian to be a female.....that just goes to show how ridiculously and subconciously patriarchal our society really is. By engaging in such ignorant actions, you merely perpetuate the myths in our society about men being smarter/better/more logical than women.....and I'm just plain sick of it. You, and people like you, continue to be responsible for keeping women from taking the equal roles and places that they deserve in our society.

    OK, sorry, I'm a college student who takes courses at a secular university....this is all the critical reading skills I have been taught - to seek out sexism, racism, and "bigotry" in anything I read, even if it's not there =). I have that junk drummed into me all day. Just wanted to lighten up the mood a little :)

    No critiques at the moment.....look forward to reading more

    [Edited on 6-17-2004 by smhbbag]
     
  3. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    [quote:d259cdbfe4][i:d259cdbfe4]Originally posted by FrozenChosen[/i:d259cdbfe4]

    The conversations (well, now there's only one but more to come) can be found by clicking on the Theology Blog link in my signature.

    I. If Christ died for everyone's sin, then everyone is going to heaven, right?" Cal asked.



    "Hold up a second," Cal said. "Is unbelief, or this rejection, a sin?"

    "I'm not sure where you're going with this...I guess I'd say yes," Amy responded. There seemed to be a little shake in her voice.

    "Then did Christ die for all sin?" Cal asked.

    "Well," said Amy, seeing the logical fallacy, "I guess unbelief isn't a sin." She was looking for a quick out.

    "Then why do people go to hell? If unbelief isn't a sin, then why is it being punished?" Cal asked.

    "I guess I'll have to think on that one," Amy responded. "I need to get to class."

    Amy picked up her books and left, hamburger half uneaten. Cal began to work on his salad again, but also picked at the untouched fries. [/quote:d259cdbfe4]

    I might sound new at this, but that part was particularly good. I have often thought that given the merits of the beginning of your argument, that Limited Atonement should be the easiest of the points to defend and present. I have had a moderate amount of facility in discussing this with brothers of a different mind. However, this part had me stumped: [i:d259cdbfe4]Amy: "they are going to hell because they didn't believe." [/i:d259cdbfe4] I thought your response was timely.

    Again, many thanks and keep this up!!!!:banana:
     
  4. JonathonHunt

    JonathonHunt Guest

    Typical how the Baptist is the arminian one....

    PAH!

    :flaming::lol:
     
  5. Puritan Sailor

    Puritan Sailor Puritan Board Doctor

    [quote:9b62b9369f][i:9b62b9369f]Originally posted by JonathanHunt[/i:9b62b9369f]
    Typical how the Baptist is the arminian one....

    PAH!

    :flaming::lol: [/quote:9b62b9369f]
    Well, the liberals are all presbyterian :wink:
     
  6. FrozenChosen

    FrozenChosen Puritan Board Freshman

    She's Arminian, but she can be strict about Bible translations.

    Should I change her to a methodist?
     
  7. cupotea

    cupotea Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:364bbf34d9][i:364bbf34d9]Originally posted by FrozenChosen[/i:364bbf34d9]
    She's Arminian, but she can be strict about Bible translations.

    Should I change her to a methodist? [/quote:364bbf34d9]

    Don't Methodist generally believe that you have to work your way into heaven? That may be a better analogy then Baptist, unless you are presuppositionaly biased against Baptist.
     
  8. JonathonHunt

    JonathonHunt Guest

    Yeah, this board is terribly baptistophobic and the psychological damage will be with me for years. I need to work through some issues with my therapist and learn to love the credo within...

    :wink:
     
  9. SoldierOfTheRock

    SoldierOfTheRock Puritan Board Freshman

    "Well, I don't have my Bible hear* but I'm sure it says it" Amy huffed.
    - I think you misspelled here.*

    You might put it in a different style such as: thier name a colon and then what they say.
    Ex.
    Cal: I'm reformed!
    Amy: I'm a baptist!

    I do not see anything wrong with making the arminian a baptist. I go to a baptist church where everyone is arminian. of course I go to an SBC church, not sure if thats why.

    Overall it was very good. I also enjoyed the logical part of it.
    :)

    Joshua
     
  10. cupotea

    cupotea Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:9d0bb425a8][i:9d0bb425a8]Originally posted by SoldierOfTheRock[/i:9d0bb425a8]
    "Well, I don't have my Bible hear* but I'm sure it says it" Amy huffed.
    - I think you misspelled here.*

    You might put it in a different style such as: thier name a colon and then what they say.
    Ex.
    Cal: I'm reformed!
    Amy: I'm a baptist!

    I do not see anything wrong with making the arminian a baptist. I go to a baptist church where everyone is arminian. of course I go to an SBC church, not sure if thats why.

    Overall it was very good. I also enjoyed the logical part of it.
    :)

    Joshua [/quote:9d0bb425a8]

    Joshua,

    How do you know that everybody there is Arminian? Is it based on your actual study of Arminius' writings that you come to your conclusion, or is it based on what you hear or read what everybody else believe what Arminian's believe?
     
  11. FrozenChosen

    FrozenChosen Puritan Board Freshman

    I think Baptist was a kneejerk reaction for me to use, since I used to be Baptist. I know a lot more of the rhetoric, but I think I could imagine some of the rhetoric that Methodists use. I'll change it for my Baptist brothers on the board.
     
  12. cupotea

    cupotea Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:3637e14185][i:3637e14185]Originally posted by FrozenChosen[/i:3637e14185]
    I think Baptist was a kneejerk reaction for me to use, since I used to be Baptist. I know a lot more of the rhetoric, but I think I could imagine some of the rhetoric that Methodists use. I'll change it for my Baptist brothers on the board. [/quote:3637e14185]

    Thanks mate! I use to be a Roman Catholic and some have unfairly associated the so-called Arminian Baptist theology with that of Arminian theology of the RCC.

    What I consider Arminian Baptist are groups like the Free-Will Baptist denomination and Pentecostals/Charismatics, Church of Christ that believe that you can lose your salvation and that your eternal security is based on works. Most independants and SBC are very strong proponents of the eternal security of the believer in that it is salvation by grace alone.


    [Edited on 6-17-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever]
     
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