RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I misread what the Bible says all the time. I've been wrong on doctrine so often.
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I misread what the Bible says all the time. I've been wrong on doctrine so often.
I have had times though when the Lord would bring to my mind a scripture passage that was a good fit for that situation speaking with another person, or when witnessing to either Mormons or JW.
Thank God that he gave to us His infallible scriptures to lead and direct/guide us in all things.
"The Lord would bring to my mind"...Can you think of a better way to phrase what happened in those times so you're not claiming to know what God is doing (other than what he has revealed to us in Scripture he is doing?)? People all over the world say that the Lord brings things to mind to say, but because of their ill-informed theology, the Scripture that comes to their mind actually leads to error.
The only thing that makes you different from them is that you study the Scriptures; the Holy Spirit by means of them makes you wise and prepared for such conversations. I don't say God doesn't help us in such conversations but we are presumptuous to say that God did this or God did that.
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How about when I have been in certain situations, the Spirit brought back to me certain scriptures to be able to use while witnessing or speaking with others?
I see that I'm not communicating very well!! [emoji4] I haven't meant to press, and you obviously love the Lord so much and want to know his will. I just knew that you'd expressed that you want to get rid of remaining charismatic influences and this is one of those areas where that influence can run deep.
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I think my best option would be to just keep in the scriptures period, and tell others not the Lord showed me or told me, but that this is what I understand the Bible to mean.
Scroll down to #12 in this essay by Vern Poythress.
https://frame-poythress.org/modern-...s-of-the-spirit-within-cessationist-theology/
Samuel Rutherford who helped write the Westminster Confession describes many extraordinary workings of the holy spirit. Flavel, Mather, etc. Spurgeon functioned in this way in public many times. This IS part of Reformed history.
I am sad to see people dismissing the working of the Holy Spirit in this way. I have on many occasions felt distinctly led to pray for somebody, or give some money to somebody, with zero knowledge of their current circumstances. It turned out they were in desperate need of prayer or money. I have felt led to just call people and it turned out to be the Lord leading. Once I called a lady and said I had felt greatly burdened to pray for her and was there anything going on. It turned out her daughter had just been in a car crash and fractured her skull. Mamma was in emotionally worse shape than daughter! Think what it meant to her to get that phone call, and, my prayers mattered.
A few years ago I had come home from the bank with a large certified bank check for a young man at church who is currently on the mission field. God had enabled us to give at the time in a way we normally cannot. I had intended it to be anonymous of course and was going to take it to church. But that very day he came over to visit my son and started taking about what was going on and what his financial need was and how he couldn't see any way that the money could be earned in time or given or borrowed. He wasn't paying any attention at all to me; I was in the background.
The amount he stated was EXACTLY the amount of the check. Maybe I lose my reward in heaven for not being secret, but I went upstairs and got the check and handed it to him. My son was thrilled out of his mind for his friend, and the guy was pretty blown away. He will remember all his life that God can provide even when we don't see how. It sure thrilled me too, to see God do that.
I would be very careful here not to call the works of the Holy Spirit as something from the devil or sinful flesh. I get it- believe me I get it- that the charismatic movement is thick with false prophets and "words" that are not from God. That does not mean it can't happen and does not happen. I am grateful that I have learned to be sensitive to these leadings and to obey these promptings. It is a joy.
https://frame-poythress.org/modern-...s-of-the-spirit-within-cessationist-theology/
Samuel Rutherford who helped write the Westminster Confession describes many extraordinary workings of the holy spirit. Flavel, Mather, etc. Spurgeon functioned in this way in public many times. This IS part of Reformed history.
I am sad to see people dismissing the working of the Holy Spirit in this way. I have on many occasions felt distinctly led to pray for somebody, or give some money to somebody, with zero knowledge of their current circumstances. It turned out they were in desperate need of prayer or money. I have felt led to just call people and it turned out to be the Lord leading. Once I called a lady and said I had felt greatly burdened to pray for her and was there anything going on. It turned out her daughter had just been in a car crash and fractured her skull. Mamma was in emotionally worse shape than daughter! Think what it meant to her to get that phone call, and, my prayers mattered.
A few years ago I had come home from the bank with a large certified bank check for a young man at church who is currently on the mission field. God had enabled us to give at the time in a way we normally cannot. I had intended it to be anonymous of course and was going to take it to church. But that very day he came over to visit my son and started taking about what was going on and what his financial need was and how he couldn't see any way that the money could be earned in time or given or borrowed. He wasn't paying any attention at all to me; I was in the background.
The amount he stated was EXACTLY the amount of the check. Maybe I lose my reward in heaven for not being secret, but I went upstairs and got the check and handed it to him. My son was thrilled out of his mind for his friend, and the guy was pretty blown away. He will remember all his life that God can provide even when we don't see how. It sure thrilled me too, to see God do that.
I would be very careful here not to call the works of the Holy Spirit as something from the devil or sinful flesh. I get it- believe me I get it- that the charismatic movement is thick with false prophets and "words" that are not from God. That does not mean it can't happen and does not happen. I am grateful that I have learned to be sensitive to these leadings and to obey these promptings. It is a joy.
I have been trying to get the proper balance in this area, for we would not see the sign gifts operating today among us, but the Lord can still do a miracle or a healing when He chooses too, and he still can prompt us as was suggested here, correct?
My opinion David, is that he can and he does, but you note the word "extraordinary" in the essay I posted. The charismatic mentality of miracles of healing for every Christian all the time if you just have faith enough, and every Sunday service has to have prophecies and words of knowledge or else God didn't move, is error.
I don't know what the balance is. I'd say all the advice above to center on scripture and the Lord is the right attitude. Yet be open to gentle promptings in your life; they do happen. As far as actual prophecies predicting the future like Agabus, in that Poythress essay, personally I think it could happen, but there is not one single so called prophet in the charismatic movement who I think is legitimate. And the ones claiming to be going to the third heaven and coming back with new revelation as authoritative as scripture, are clearly false. But I think it may happen again such as right before the Lord returns if not sooner, the way Rutherford described. Perhaps it will be part of a great revival.
I don't know what the balance is. I'd say all the advice above to center on scripture and the Lord is the right attitude. Yet be open to gentle promptings in your life; they do happen. As far as actual prophecies predicting the future like Agabus, in that Poythress essay, personally I think it could happen, but there is not one single so called prophet in the charismatic movement who I think is legitimate. And the ones claiming to be going to the third heaven and coming back with new revelation as authoritative as scripture, are clearly false. But I think it may happen again such as right before the Lord returns if not sooner, the way Rutherford described. Perhaps it will be part of a great revival.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
No that is not correct. God "IN TIMES PAST".
Afterthought
Puritan Board Senior
Poythress and the Covenanters have been discussed many times.
https://www.puritanboard.com/posts/329972/
https://www.puritanboard.com/posts/276976/
https://www.puritanboard.com/posts/276816/
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/517/page-3
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/prove-cessationism-from-the-bible-please.59550/page-2
https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...e-telling-and-the-scottish-covenanters.60828/
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/westminster-divines-were-continuationists.84966/
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/the-problem-rome-represents-to-continuationists.81993/
I haven't seen anything in what lynnie has posted about her personal experience that cannot be understood within the ordinary providence of God taking special care of his people (which includes the government of his creatures' wills and actions), and there were no actions that took place that could not have been chosen to be done within the ordinary framework of applying God's Word to the situation (as opposed to choosing listening to "promptings," which was chosen in this case) or could not be understood as too vague to directly attribute to God's working (although I'll interpret her testimony charitably, this possibility must theoretically be left open because I personally was not there; I only have lynnie's interpretation of her experience; I have seen unbelievers report their interpreted experience to "prove" all sorts of paranormal phenomena to confirm themselves in their unbelief, with their experience being of the exact same nature to what some Christians attribute to "leading of the Spirit."). We are to hear and obey the Word and its applications; and understand experience and Providence by the Word's interpretation; we are not to attribute the Word of God to "promptings" which we must "obey."
And yes, the Lord still chooses to heal or work miracles today, even in response to prayer. It might be according to "second causes" such as medicine, but we are not to trust in lawful means and instead trust in the One who makes those means effective. (Edit: By "miracles" here, I am using it in its common sense, which I assume David was using it, for something unusual that God does in his Providence. I am not using it here in its technical sense in the Bible where they are used to confirm the validity of a prophet; those have ceased.)
https://www.puritanboard.com/posts/329972/
https://www.puritanboard.com/posts/276976/
https://www.puritanboard.com/posts/276816/
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/517/page-3
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/prove-cessationism-from-the-bible-please.59550/page-2
https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...e-telling-and-the-scottish-covenanters.60828/
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/westminster-divines-were-continuationists.84966/
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/the-problem-rome-represents-to-continuationists.81993/
I haven't seen anything in what lynnie has posted about her personal experience that cannot be understood within the ordinary providence of God taking special care of his people (which includes the government of his creatures' wills and actions), and there were no actions that took place that could not have been chosen to be done within the ordinary framework of applying God's Word to the situation (as opposed to choosing listening to "promptings," which was chosen in this case) or could not be understood as too vague to directly attribute to God's working (although I'll interpret her testimony charitably, this possibility must theoretically be left open because I personally was not there; I only have lynnie's interpretation of her experience; I have seen unbelievers report their interpreted experience to "prove" all sorts of paranormal phenomena to confirm themselves in their unbelief, with their experience being of the exact same nature to what some Christians attribute to "leading of the Spirit."). We are to hear and obey the Word and its applications; and understand experience and Providence by the Word's interpretation; we are not to attribute the Word of God to "promptings" which we must "obey."
And yes, the Lord still chooses to heal or work miracles today, even in response to prayer. It might be according to "second causes" such as medicine, but we are not to trust in lawful means and instead trust in the One who makes those means effective. (Edit: By "miracles" here, I am using it in its common sense, which I assume David was using it, for something unusual that God does in his Providence. I am not using it here in its technical sense in the Bible where they are used to confirm the validity of a prophet; those have ceased.)
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timmopussycat
Puritan Board Junior
There are some charismatics (relatively few) who subscribe to sola Scriptura.
Yes, I was meaning Miracles and healings in the sense of God can and still does at times intervene through Himself directly causing them to happen, but also would see the normative way that God operates today is in the ordinary means and ways, such as medicine, hospitals, etc.
The only way to correctly discern and define what is happening must be to line up with the scriptures themselves, as the Lord will never act contrary to them, nor in addition to them.
The only way to correctly discern and define what is happening must be to line up with the scriptures themselves, as the Lord will never act contrary to them, nor in addition to them.
Those who do ascribe to such a viewpoint would tend to be mong the classical Pentecostal part, as most modern Charismatics tend to see ongoing revelation from the Lord, as they see modern Apostles and Prophets still in operation today.
God can still choose to do whatever He wants to do. correct?
Gforce9
Puritan Board Junior
Yes, God may do whatever pleases Him.....the WCF acknowledges such. The real question is that the way He ordinarily works? That answer is no. Additionally, the special, continuing revelation of Evangelicalism, as Dr. Horton has observed and stated, makes everyone their own pope. Evangelicalism is against Rome for their pontiff (rightly so), but up the ante by having 10,000,000 of their own. This why we have the Bible, the RPW, and the "ordinary means of grace". Furthermore, as Reformed folk, we understand our hearts, our ability to "hear" clearly, and just how deep our corruption runs (and that understanding seems to grow greater over time)......we do not trust in these things, but in all those things God has told us, inerrently and infallibly through His inspired declaration to men, the holy writ. It may be that some have seen or been the recipient of God working outside the ordinary ways, I won't deny that, but it does seem to underscore our corrupt natures always looking for something "more"..........
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I fully agree with you that the Lord has defined things to happen normally in ordinary ways and means, just do not see the scriptures saying that God has-stated that he is no longer able and willing to once in a while break in and do something for His glory and praise.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
Of course God has the ability to do anything He desires. Though to have a view of that the gifts have passed (past tense), one ought to be consistent and hold to a view of total cessationism.
Ask Mr. Religion
Flatly Unflappable
Perhaps God performs miracles even today. No one should be going so far as to claim to know the secret will of God, as in "he is no longer able and willing". How exactly do we know this to make such a statement? Of course God does all that He wills to do. But to then say, "Well, that means He is willing to perform miracles" is going too far.
We have no warrant to be expecting miracles just because we ask for them. For example, where do we find warrant in Scripture for any expectation of miraculous healing? No place other than the healing from sin. Where are the authoritative Apostles today that could even authenticate such a miracle if it actually happened? Unless we want to swim the Tiber, they just do not exist. That God works in extraordinary means at times is not warrant to claim "Miracle!"
Very few who would see themselves as holding to cessationsmthat would exclude the lord from at times though doing a miracle or a direct healing, if that would be part of His plans and purposes.
He ceased from any more ongoing revelation to us, but not from doing anything today.
Gforce9
Puritan Board Junior
The key here, though, is what is ordinary? Yes, God could turn the sky purple in Khazakstan, yellow in Venezuela, pink in Jersey, and a nice rainbow of all the primary and secondary colors in Victoria......all at the same time. I'm not going to wait for such or think this is any more remote than people being raised from the dead every Lord's Day morning. God may do any of these, but it is not ordinary. The obsession in the human heart for "more" than what God has given us is the same as telling Him we don't like what we already have.......
I agree with your view regarding God ways of dealing with us through mainly ordinary means, but was just suggesting that he has not totally shut down doing any more miracles or divine healings today when he so pleases.
I do see the normal way the Lord operates with us now as being for the nast majority of the time through conventional ways and means.
I do see the normal way the Lord operates with us now as being for the nast majority of the time through conventional ways and means.
D
Deleted member 7239
Guest
In this thread I wanted to establish the superiority of the Reformed view of communion with God over a false Charismatic view (hearing from God, etc.). The question of hearing from God outside the scripture is a different topic I think.
All of these questions disappear when I read the truths of our salvation and realize that God does not hold me at arm's length, but embraces me as His child. This allows for true intimacy with God and these truths are contained in the pages of scripture.
Having a Reformed view of salvation via union with Christ and adoption by the Father is much better that waiting on a special extra biblical word from God. We can trust in His words because they are unmovable. Our experiences are weightless compared to the eternal weight of the Word of God.
All of these questions disappear when I read the truths of our salvation and realize that God does not hold me at arm's length, but embraces me as His child. This allows for true intimacy with God and these truths are contained in the pages of scripture.
Having a Reformed view of salvation via union with Christ and adoption by the Father is much better that waiting on a special extra biblical word from God. We can trust in His words because they are unmovable. Our experiences are weightless compared to the eternal weight of the Word of God.
Ask Mr. Religion
Flatly Unflappable
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