tcalbrecht
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by alwaysreforming
Here's the "Gospel" by Rick Warren, quoted from page 58.
Page 58 of what?
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Originally posted by alwaysreforming
Here's the "Gospel" by Rick Warren, quoted from page 58.
Originally posted by Jie-Huli
I am curious about your statement that you have seen the gospel more clearly in Mr. Warren's materials than in "lots of reformed" materials. Could you produce for us any quotations from Mr. Warren's materials which set forth the utter depravity and wickedness of men outside of Christ, showing clearly that they are under the wrath of God for their sin?
rsc: 1. Where in the NT is there any example of demographically targeted evangelism? The very idea of congregations that are demographically, ethnically, or economically homogenous strikes at the very heart of the errors plaguing the Corinthian congregation.
ta: Do I detect a logical fallacy here? Note the subject shift from evangelism to congregations. Targeted evangelism is no problem. There is ample biblical precedent.
Originally posted by Robin
Tom has an excellent point about the Reformed camp....the Federal Vision certainly has our work cut out for us...
But that's another thread.
R.
Originally posted by R. Scott Clark
As I understand PD Evangelism, the goal is (as in most church growth materials that I read ca. 1987-93) to create a demographically homogenous church. The homogenous church is the goal of the demographically targeted evangelism and church planting.
Originally posted by tcalbrecht
Originally posted by alwaysreforming
Here's the "Gospel" by Rick Warren, quoted from page 58.
Page 58 of what?
Originally posted by alwaysreforming
Sorry, Tom: the Purpose Driven Life
I am still interested in you responding to my concerns; and again, because I want to see another way of looking at them. the last thing I want to do is have an uncharitable spirit towards RW and his methods; but so far, my convictions are saying that their is something going on here that's not quite right.
God doesn't save sinners to enable them to fulfill their "purpose" unless that purpose is to glorify God and enjoy him forever (WSC 1), but I don't get the impression that this is intended sense of the PDL. If it is, I'm happy to be corrected.
This was my own discovery. I was trying not to go out of my way in my criticism of him, its just that when I started reading the book I couldn't believe how elementary everything was, from the thoughts to the writing to the sentence structure. Everything seemed so obvious as to go without saying and so the popularity of the book amazed me.
Originally posted by tcalbrecht
Originally posted by Jie-Huli
I am curious about your statement that you have seen the gospel more clearly in Mr. Warren's materials than in "lots of reformed" materials. Could you produce for us any quotations from Mr. Warren's materials which set forth the utter depravity and wickedness of men outside of Christ, showing clearly that they are under the wrath of God for their sin?
Before I answer, let me find out your standard. Are you suggesting that every biblical discussion of the gospel and sin much include phrases like "the utter depravity and wickedness of men"? Certainly the lack of such phrases may be characteristic of most (all?) non-reformed preaching. So it seems that the issue is not with Warren per se, but with non-reformed preaching in general. Wouldn't you agree?
To go one step further, do you believe that your standard, whatever it is, is consistently applied even across reformed preaching?
LARRY KING: Rick, why do bad things happen to good people?
RICK WARREN: Well, Larry, it's because we live in a broken world. This is not (a) perfect world. This is not heaven and that's why we're depraved 'Thy will be done on earth as it is heaven.' Why? Because in heaven, everything's done perfectly. Things are not done perfectly on this earth.
Originally posted by jdlongmire
LARRY KING: Rick, why do bad things happen to good people?
RICK WARREN: Well, Larry, it's because we live in a broken world. This is not (a) perfect world. This is not heaven and that's why we're depraved 'Thy will be done on earth as it is heaven.' Why? Because in heaven, everything's done perfectly. Things are not done perfectly on this earth.
http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s05030135.htm
David Nederhood, a much younger man, is pastor of a Christian Reformed church in Alameda, California. "[My] biggest challenge is to convince people that this really is Reformed." How does he do that? "It's pretty hard to argue with the Great Commission and the Great Commandment," from which Warren's five purposes are drawn.
Originally posted by BJClark
I have a question to all the Pastors who are saying RW is teaching a False Gospel, Have any of YOU contacted him personally and confronted him about this? If Not WHY NOT?
It's not about denomational lines, because God is not about Denomations does not the Bible teach us that we are to confront a brother who is in sin, and if You honestly believe He is teaching a false gospel then he is sinning, and you as his Brothers and Fellow pastors have an obligation to go to Him and talk to Him personally about that. If we are truly brothers and sisters in Christ, then it shouldn't matter WHAT church affilitation He belongs to because He is a Pastor.
And for those of us who are gossiping, myself included here, as I have participated in this thread and others like it, we need to go before God and ask His forgiveness for our own sin.
If we really believe God is a God of reconciliation then the slander must stop and those leaders here who believe He is preaching a false Gospel need to put an end to it and go to Him personally and confront Him on it.
Just my
[Edited on 11-22-2005 by BJClark]
Originally posted by Jie-Huli
I must congratulate you on finding a quotation in which he used the word "depraved". This is not exactly the sort of quotation I was seeking, however . . . I was thinking more of a quotation from his materials (which supposedly contain presentations of the gospel) which would really set forth the doctrine of total depravity and explain that men outside of Christ are under the wrath of God because of their sins. I certainly did not see such an explanation in "The Purpose Driven Life", and I do not think the quote above does that.
I have read Rick Warren's book and found it helpful at the time I read it. At the time I was rather immature and theologically ignorant. The book offered "promises" that were quite discouraging when my life did not turn out the way Rick Warren paints things.
Originally posted by BJClark
ChristopherPaul
I have read Rick Warren's book and found it helpful at the time I read it. At the time I was rather immature and theologically ignorant. The book offered "promises" that were quite discouraging when my life did not turn out the way Rick Warren paints things.
Can I ask you a question, what were you expecting in your life that did not turn out the way you expected it to per what you read in the book?
What promises do you see were offered or did you read into what he wrote that you became discouraged about?
Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
He does the typical, "˜repeat after me and say this prayer, now expect your life to be fulfilled´ routine that gives a Finney-esque idea that life is good after conversion.
Originally posted by tcalbrecht
Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
He does the typical, "˜repeat after me and say this prayer, now expect your life to be fulfilled´ routine that gives a Finney-esque idea that life is good after conversion.
I'm not sure what is "Finney-esque" about the idea that life after conversion is superior to life prior to conversion. I would define that as "good", certainly in an absolute sense.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." (Eph. 2:4-7)
That sounds pretty good to me. We were "dead". He loved us and made us alive in Christ, raising us up and seating us in heavenly places.
"Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation." (WCF III:6)
"They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ´s death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them:" (WCF XIII:1)
Is that all "Finney-esque"? I hope not.
Without defining "good" and how Wareen uses it inappropriately, your critique is off the mark.
I could be wrong, and I would be happy to be corrected (believe me, I really would), but it seems that what the book is lacking is AN EMPHASIS ON Christ. The person and work of Christ it seems has been pared down to "principles" to live by. From all the people I know who LOVE the book (not on the board but my in flesh friends at home), what always gets talked about is "devotions", or "day so-and-so", or "purpose", or "God's will", etc, etc, etc. What I NEVER hear these same people mention is their love for Christ.
If worship is exalting the Lord and beholding his beauty, how does PDL do this? Instead of the book painting a picture of Christ that is so lovely, so truthful, so attractive, so compelling that it makes the reader fall down at the feet of the Lord, it instead talks about "surrender", "faith", "eternity", etc.
Even the chapter on "What Makes God Smile" is skewed. Do you know what the author says makes God smile? You won't believe it! The obvious answer is Christ right, and being found in Him? However, to Warren, its: when we love God supremely, when we trust Him completely, when we obey him wholeheartedly, when we praise and thank him continually, and when we use our abilities.
If this isn't one of the most clear cases ANYWHERE of turning the Law into Gospel, I don't know what is. Sure, there are passing references to Christ, but He is never the sum and substance of anything in the book. It always comes back to what YOU can do for God.
The Bible tells us to fix our eyes on Christ. Warren's book puts our eyes on ourselves and that continually. I don't know how anyone could actually grow in their love of Christ by means of this book. He is so conspicuously absent for the discerning Christian, that the book could hardly be called "Christian" at all. No wonder so many people of other faith's love it. All of the "principles" work, one doesn't need the "Principal" behind the principles. I won't deny that the words "Christlike" and "becoming more like Christ" are replete throughout, but never is enough of Christ given for a person to really make that their foundation.
And I've heard over and over, "Yeah, but its GREAT for the beginner! Don't you get that??? Beginners need to start HERE!!!"
So we have beginners starting with something OTHER than Christ??? Beginners are starting with principles, techniques, obedience, community, etc. Its so easy to defend the book because there's nothing wrong with almost anything in it, "in principle". But the book is NOT about Jesus, and I don't see how a book can be truly edifying when it claims to cover the panoply of the Christian life, yet puts so much emphasis on the individual and what he can and should do, that NO call is made to fall at the mercy of the feet of Jesus, and that without that, EVERY man is under condemnation from God, with NO way out, not now, not ever, for all eternity.
Originally posted by tcalbrecht
Originally posted by R. Scott Clark
As I understand PD Evangelism, the goal is (as in most church growth materials that I read ca. 1987-93) to create a demographically homogenous church. The homogenous church is the goal of the demographically targeted evangelism and church planting.
What exactly is your source for understanding "PD evangelism" on which you base your opinions?
Somehow I would feel more comfortable with your analysis if you were able to provide information directly from Warren's material. ....
Given that he's a pastor, and preaches dozens (hunderds?) of sermons a year, published many books, the snippets of out of context quotes from third party sources given here does not make for a discerning analysis.
Originally posted by Robin
Go to the SB webiste: are their "worship venues" OK? (charging worshippers $20 admission) Maybe you think that's a small thing?