Common Myths about Purpose Driven

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Larry Hughes

Puritan Board Sophomore
I'm not a"warren" basher, I have nothing against the man as a man, but I have sat under tons of that type of teaching & there is nothing redeeming in it what-so-ever. And anything that obscures Christ is rejected unapologetically. And I would warn from roof tops for people to flee it - not because I hate but because I love the bretheren. When one has walked in my shoes then one can talk.

It's odd how selective the importance of doctrine is to some people & the call to discern by the sheep & how quickly the selective use of scripture is made. Yet when they exercise that discernment to show forth Christ, to defend the faith and not man's glory, as RC Sproul once observed and said, BAM, a bullet in the back. Discernment is not false accusation. The motive of a man is not the issue but the teaching that is clear for all to see.

L
 

BrianBowman

Posting Priviledges Revoked
Originally posted by Larry Hughes
I'm not a"warren" basher, I have nothing against the man as a man, but I have sat under tons of that type of teaching & there is nothing redeeming in it what-so-ever.L

:amen: :ditto:

my sentiments and experiences almost "to the T".
 

Steve Owen

Puritan Board Sophomore
:amen: indeed!
Alas, purpose-driven nonsense is becoming all too popular in Britain.

It does seem to work though, according to its own definition. Churches that use it do grow. Whether they're actually converting anyone is another matter. :down:

Martin
 

StudentoftheWord

Puritan Board Freshman
PDL is pure trash, from beginning to end. From his use of corrupt versions of the Bible, to the mingling of Secular Philosophy and of Godly principles. purpose driven poop belongs in the trash.

My :2cents: Worth.

-Chuck
 

Steve Owen

Puritan Board Sophomore
Originally posted by webmaster
Martin,

How wide spread is this in your country? Is it comperable to how it is taking America by storm? I'd like your thoughts.

I'm not sure, I'm afraid. It's certainly not popular among the Reformed Baptist Churches and Brethren Assemblies where I preach, and it's been criticized within the FIEC, but the 'evangelical' church in my village has gone over to it and I expect many Baptist Union churches and 'broad evangelical' Anglican churches are using it.

However, we don't need any help from America to go wrong! We have the Alpha Course. :barfy:

Martin
 

Larry Hughes

Puritan Board Sophomore
It is perfect for American type John Wayne thinking. As a pure marketing gimmick it is brilliant but as to the Christian faith it is a poison. The fundamental behind Warren's approach was to ask the "unchurched" what they hate about church. Well of course they hate the preaching in purity of the Word, Law and Gospel and the ordinance/sacraments are but insignificant. So, you get what you market for.

In KY it has been and is a battle for many many pastors I know coming out of Southern into the "real world" of ministry in the area churches (and I personally know and talk to several regularly). As they attempt to bring the doctrines of Sovereign Grace back into the SBC at the local level they meet a lot of resistance to the point of being threatened with expulsion. Personal pastor friends of mine have been threatened with expulsion in part based upon there resistance to PDL/PDC and other similar type "teachings" (there are plenty of others coming from Lifeway).

Our former church's in Louisville (Southern's back yard), two churches ago, the Saddleback twin, pastor threw out ALL the young reformed Southern student assistant pastors at one point, and they tried to get along. And that's a fact of PDL/PDC and all those other mumbo jumbo false teachings.

Hopefully England will not follow our suite and avoid this. Only an oppulant society like ours would even entertain these absurdities, this stuff would be used only to start fires in persecuted countries - because it provides nothing.

L
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
I would prefer to give Warren a fair hearing, and read his words in the best possible light rather than the worst. That doesn't seem to be the approach of the Warren bashers on this forum. Rather, they take the slightest item, blow it up out of proportion, and are ready to hustle poor Rick off to the pyre.

I expected better from reformed people, but some continue to disapoint. I guess the 9th commandment are just words on a page for some folks.

:up:

[Edited on 11-19-2005 by jdlongmire]

[Edited on 11-19-2005 by jdlongmire]
 

BrianBowman

Posting Priviledges Revoked
Originally posted by jdlongmire
I would prefer to give Warren a fair hearing, and read his words in the best possible light rather than the worst. That doesn't seem to be the approach of the Warren bashers on this forum. Rather, they take the slightest item, blow it up out of proportion, and are ready to hustle poor Rick off to the pyre.

I expected better from reformed people, but some continue to disapoint. I guess the 9th commandment are just words on a page for some folks.

:up:

... some of us reformed folk spent entirely too much time "sitting under" ministries with the Rick Warren/PDL "flavor". How is it bearing false witness to compare the target marketing of modern Evangelicanism with the self-sacrifice and appeal to doctrinal purity of the Reformers?
Personally, I've seen Rick Warren on TV and he seems like a real affable fellow. However, the "mega-Church machine" is simply not fuled by the Biblical substance that so many of us have found in the Historical Reformed Faith.

1Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
...and how do you expect to move the spiritually immature to "meat" teachings unless you give them "pure spiritual milk" to grow from?

The "feast of the spirit" that the Church shares in has to be portioned according to the faith of the brethren - an infant would choke and die from a meat diet and an adult would be malnourished on a diet of milk. There is a place and time for the "children" to be nourished and the spiritually knowledgable (note I did not say mature - knowledge does not infer maturity) should have a measure of grace for the less knowledgable.

What does knowledge do again?

...and what is the converse?

Shouldn't we suffer the little children to come unto Him in love?


- pax vobiscum -

-JD
 

turmeric

Megerator
There is nothing wrong with knowlege per se, though it does not save. Context is key if you're going to quote from Paul's letters to the Corinthians!

The Gospel is simple, it's never too much for a "babe" to grasp. PD, however, is not trying so much to explain the Gospel to the unsophisticated as it is trying to market church & usurp the work of the Holy Spirit. Don't get me started on RW's garbling & conflating of many translations & paraphrases of Scripture, ignoring context completely. This isn't helpful to the spiritually immature but confusing! How are the poor "babes" to sort it out, since, per Hebrews 5, they aren't excercised to discern good & evil?
 

BrianBowman

Posting Priviledges Revoked
Originally posted by jdlongmire
...and how do you expect to move the spiritually immature to "meat" teachings unless you give them "pure spiritual milk" to grow from?

The "feast of the spirit" that the Church shares in has to be portioned according to the faith of the brethren - an infant would choke and die from a meat diet and an adult would be malnourished on a diet of milk. There is a place and time for the "children" to be nourished and the spiritually knowledgable (note I did not say mature - knowledge does not infer maturity) should have a measure of grace for the less knowledgable.

What does knowledge do again?

...and what is the converse?

Shouldn't we suffer the little children to come unto Him in love?


- pax vobiscum -

-JD

JD - please post your Church affiliation according to PB signature requirements. This can help people "know where your are coming from".

The Historic Reformed Faith has a very proven and Biblical way to deal with what you're addressing above, via the Covenantal understanding of Scripture. No one in the Reformed camp (that I'm aware of) is suggesting that believers should not have "a proper spiritual diet" congruent with their level of growth. Healthy Reformed Churches provide this in a variety of ways including nurturing literal covenant children AND new believers of all ages.

My point has to do with the Ecclessiastical purity/maturity of a minstry as expressed in it's doctrine and practice.

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by BrianBowman]
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
My point has to do with the Ecclessiastical purity/maturity of a minstry as expressed in it's doctrine and practice.

Doctrinally - PDL - is Christianity 101

Practically - exposes the spiritually immature to doctrinal basics and simultaneously evangelizes to the Elect

Please give a real world example of an Ecclessiastically pure ministry.

- pax vobiscum -
 

Jie-Huli

Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by jdlongmire
My point has to do with the Ecclessiastical purity/maturity of a minstry as expressed in it's doctrine and practice.

Doctrinally - PDL - is Christianity 101

Practically - exposes the spiritually immature to doctrinal basics and simultaneously evangelizes to the Elect

Please give a real world example of an Ecclessiastically pure ministry.

- pax vobiscum -

Would that it were actually "Christianity 101". Would that it did actually teach doctrinal basics to the babes in Christ.

In all kindness, your characterisation of this movement is very far removed from the dismal reality of what it really is. This movement has jettisoned the true Gospel once for all delivered to the Saints, and is yet another contemptible attempt to blend the Bible (those parts of it the author can utilise to his liking anyway) and worldliness. It is rejected of God's church.
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
With all kindess in return - winsome presentation of the Gospel is admirable and God's will for the elect will flourish despite the strengths and weaknesses of any individual "system" - be careful to judge...even the Church fathers utilized Scripture to substantiate untenable doctrine - are you so doctrinally pure that you can unmistakably judge the will of God?

- pax -
 

Larry Hughes

Puritan Board Sophomore
The spiritual milk is the Gospel in its purity. The stronger drink is NOT some other doctrine but rather a deeper understanding of the Gospel in all its beauty. Stronger meat/wine never moves beyond the Gospel IT IS the Gospel in greater dose...that is a great error of some who think that moving on is "something else".

There is a difference in "pure doctrine" meaning "I've got it all down perfectly", and keeping the Gospel, that is justification central in spite of other errors I certainly have. We are not saved by perfect doctrinal knowledge!

On one hand I don't believe Rick Warren is intending to be malicious at all but neither was Ghandi. All men think they are right no matter where they fall.

Martin Luther did understand one thing in his time that very much applies to our time. Pondering persecution of the church what are we to make of churches, like in America in which persecution outwardly does not occur, say like in China? That is the church is protected by constitutions and precepts externally by the government.

Luther observed in his time that absolute tolerance = total persecution. The persecution of the devil moves within the church and when this happens all sorts of doctrines lulling us asleep and steering us away from Christ abound within the church itself. In reformation time it was the indulgences and such, in our time it is these "purpose driven" life doctrines and all the similar ones. All of these are designed, maybe only by the devil himself, to draw men away from the Cross. Now men like RW may not see and truly be ignorant of it, but none-the-less they are the vehicle for it.

In the end it is deadly for it draws away from Christ alone and creates self-confindence/righteousness or self-despair/despondancy, both of which are unbelief and infidelity in Christ alone.

Then there is also the very real idea that some men may not, I know I'll catch it for this one, really be called at all but rather have asserted themselves! Teachers ought to take more seriously Paul's warning on this, it is the least considered warning among far too many who call themselves preachers and teachers & they are endangering both their and other men's souls.

L
 

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by turmeric
There is nothing wrong with knowlege per se, though it does not save. Context is key if you're going to quote from Paul's letters to the Corinthians!

The Gospel is simple, it's never too much for a "babe" to grasp. PD, however, is not trying so much to explain the Gospel to the unsophisticated as it is trying to market church & usurp the work of the Holy Spirit. Don't get me started on RW's garbling & conflating of many translations & paraphrases of Scripture, ignoring context completely. This isn't helpful to the spiritually immature but confusing! How are the poor "babes" to sort it out, since, per Hebrews 5, they aren't excercised to discern good & evil?

:ditto: Meg.

Luke 17:1-3

... "Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin. Pay attention to yourselves!
--- Jesus



Robin
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
***sigh** (that's twice tonight)

Wouldn't it be better to go and become "ambassadors of doctrine" at these churches instead of lambasting the work of brothers and sisters in Christ?

Or do you propose that RW and his associates are reprobate and should be treated as the heathen?
 

Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
Originally posted by jdlongmire
***sigh** (that's twice tonight)

Wouldn't it be better to go and become "ambassadors of doctrine" at these churches instead of lambasting the work of brothers and sisters in Christ?

Or do you propose that RW and his associates are reprobate and should be treated as the heathen?

I think Larry has already noted what happens to "ambassadors of doctrine" when they attempt to resist the latest fad...many are faced with a choice of conforming or hitting the road.

I'm neither a prophet nor a son of a prophet, but I think there's a big fight brewing in the SBC with the Calvinist preacher boys coming out of Southern and going into the thoroughly Arminian SBC churches, where most deacons and members think altar calls and "free will" are cardinal tenets of the faith. Not to mention those that are still involved in freemasonry.
 

Bladestunner316

Puritan Board Doctor
RW has highly questionable associtians and sympathies with heretical false teachers that is a big reason why any christian should question his loyalty to the Chrsitian church and Doctrines.

blade
 

Larry Hughes

Puritan Board Sophomore
Chris,

You hit the nail on the head, and I personally know several pastors facing that very thing in real life this very day. Many of which I meet regularly to have lunch with, not to mention a family member.

The SBC is going to split, the writing is on the wall.
 

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
Phillipians 1:8-10

For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ...

There is no love without truth.

Robin
 

tcalbrecht

Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by Larry Hughes
As a pure marketing gimmick it is brilliant but as to the Christian faith it is a poison.

Originally posted by BrianBowman

... some of us reformed folk spent entirely too much time "sitting under" ministries with the Rick Warren/PDL "flavor".


Originally posted by Jie-Huli
This movement has jettisoned the true Gospel once for all delivered to the Saints, and is yet another contemptible attempt to blend the Bible (those parts of it the author can utilise to his liking anyway) and worldliness.

Originally posted by Bladestunner316
RW has highly questionable associtians and sympathies with heretical false teachers that is a big reason why any christian should question his loyalty to the Chrsitian church and Doctrines.

blade


It's these sorts of hyperactive statements that give me reason to believe that certain "reformed" critics are more interested in generating heat than light. Many of the charges are repugnant to fair minded folks.

I'm not sure I know what a "PDL flavor" is (and if one can give a rock solid definition, I'd love to hear it), except that it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of some folks who think they have encountered it. Using references like "PDL flavor" seem to be the way folks get around the spirit if not the letter of the 9th commandment. They can indirectly bad mouth RW by bad mouthing something that has a "PDL flavor".

in my opinion, folks here don't seem to like Rick Warren because he may not preach a "three pointer" that would get a "A" grade in a reformed seminary's homiletics class. Such a standard is humanist/traditionalist, but it is not biblical. Some folks don't seem to care for some of his other practical approaches because they smack of "marketing". Just a reminder that one man's marketing strategy is another man's MNA nd MTW "surveys" and "evaluational materials". Every denomination and church has its "marketing plan". It just goes under another label, "statement of purpose", "objectives", etc.

The saddest charge, and the least supportable in my opinion, is that Warren has replaced the gospel with these gimmicks. Frankly, I've heard the gospel more clearly in Warren's materials than in lots of reformed sermons and scholarly articles. Warren is an easy target because he is just one person. I suggest that if you were to take a random handful of "reformed" preachers and sample how well they present the gospel in their average sermon, you might come up with a lot of criticism. Strip away the legalism and moralism in many reformed sermons and there is not much left.



[Edited on 11-21-2005 by tcalbrecht]
 

Jie-Huli

Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by tcalbrecht
The saddest charge, and the least supportable in my opinion, is that Warren has replaced the gospel with these gimmicks. Frankly, I've heard the gospel more clearly in Warren's materials than in lots of reformed sermons and scholarly articles.
[Edited on 11-21-2005 by tcalbrecht]

Mr. Albrecht,

As others have said, I have no personal bias against Mr. Warren. I know nothing about him personally. I am only judging the materials that he has put forth in the name of Christianity, for we are called to practise discernment and contend for the faith.

I am curious about your statement that you have seen the gospel more clearly in Mr. Warren's materials than in "lots of reformed" materials. Could you produce for us any quotations from Mr. Warren's materials which set forth the utter depravity and wickedness of men outside of Christ, showing clearly that they are under the wrath of God for their sin?

Regards,

Jie-Huli
 

alwaysreforming

Puritan Board Sophomore
Tom,

I want to state up front that I'm no fan of Rick Warren, but I also am appreciating your input into this discussion. Its certainly giving me pause to think about my own heart/motives/beliefs on this issue. What I have a problem with, and maybe you can help clarify how you see this issue, is (among a few things) the shallowness of what passes for the Gospel with RW. This is what I posted in another thread concerning his gospel:

Here's the "Gospel" by Rick Warren, quoted from page 58.

"Second, receive. Receive Jesus into your life as your Lord and Savior. Receive his forgiveness for your sins. Receive his Spirit, who will be able to give you the power to fulfill your life purpose. The Bible says, "Whoever accepts and trusts the Son gets in on everything, life complete and forever!"

"Wherever you are reading this, I invite you to bow your head and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity: "Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you." Go ahead.

If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God! You are now ready to discover and start living God's purpose for your life. I urge you to tell someone about it. "

...end of book quote


Also, his "Hula Worship" that goes on at his church. And number three, he seems to be compromising when he gets on TV by getting the heat totally off his back that he's preaching an exclusive message as he says that both Jewish and Muslim folks are also getting a lot out of the book (and its implied that he means without wavering in their own beliefs).

Could you please comment on these aspects? I am not baiting you into argument, but simply wanting to learn. You seem like (and I'm sure, are) a wise and godly man and I'm interested in what you have to say.
 

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
Tom has an excellent point about the Reformed camp....the Federal Vision certainly has our work cut out for us...

But that's another thread.

R.
 
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