Cold and Dead

[mrhartley85]

Is it a caricature to believe that most reformed Presbyterian churches practice a cold, dead orthodoxy? I am considering visiting a reformed Presbyterian church, but I picture them being lifeless.

Am I wrong to believe that about the majority?

 

[TheOldCourse]

in your opinion, what are some of the main reasons some reformed Presbyterian churches are dead and cold?

I'm not sure what you mean. Cold and dead churches are generally those in which the gospel is not preached and for them the answer is self-explanatory.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

Thankfully I haven't experienced any that are. I have experienced quite the opposite. I'm guessing you've seen some?

 

[Gforce9]

I have not run across this condition. What I have run across are stated Presbyterian churches that have given themselves over to cultural relevance movements and fail to faithfully preach the law and gospel. "Cold and dead" describe the latter condition, in my estimation. Someone who is used to the pomp and circumstance of a dog and pony show that goes to a regulated worship service may see that as cold, but they have no clue what they miss in the means of grace set before them simply This is coming from one who used to attend the dog and pony shows.....

 

[mrhartley85]

Thankfully I haven't experienced any that are. I have experienced quite the opposite. I'm guessing you've seen some?

I haven't been to one yet, but I picture it being a bunch of old people with orthodox doctrines and no growth.
But I’m sure I just have a caricature in my mind. I’m kind of just feeling around for people’s experiences with reformed Presbyterian churches.

 

[TheOldCourse]

I haven't been to one yet, but I picture it being a bunch of old people with orthodox doctrines and no growth.
But I’m sure I just have a caricature in my mind. I’m kind of just feeling around for people’s experiences with reformed Presbyterian churches.

I think that you may need to reorient how you picture a cold and dead church. Vibrant and living churches aren't always dominated by young people and don't always grow, numerically speaking anyways. The fact of the matter is that if a church has been around for more than a decade or two, its membership numbers are probably pretty steady and could even be contracting despite faithful ministry and great spiritual vitality. Some of the warmest churches I've visited have been small Presbyterian churches in struggling, aging communities where there just aren't a lot of young people around.

 

[Gforce9]

I have t been to one yet, but I picture it being a bunch of old people with orthodox doctrines and no growth.
But I’m sure I just have a caricature in my mind. I’m kind of just feeling around for people’s experiences with reformed Presbyterian churches.

Brian,
Something to consider in all of this (again, from a guy who has been on both sides of this):

Reformed, regulated worship isn't natural to man (even redeemed man). It has little appeal to his natural desires and is counter intuitive. The gospel is this way. The gospel is unnatural. It must be proclaimed to us that we may trust in Christ, Lord's Day by Lord's Day. Our natural tendency, even in evaluating assurance, is to look to our own performance, rather than to the One who secured our inheritance.

Reformed worship is of similar kind. There are no Les Pauls and Marshalls. There are no lights. The room is plain so as not to distract from the means of grace. There is not a lot of "curb appeal" from that standpoint. Our church grew, not from outreach, curb appeal or something flashy, but, by and large, from people like me looking to meet a holy God without my emotions being artificially invoked. When I do express emotion, it is from hearing about our God preached, the word made visible in the sacraments or in the rich, biblical truths in a song...

 

[Edward]

a cold, dead orthodoxy?

To clarify, are you asking if they are lacking rock bands, rap singers and smoke machines and fill up their time with long prayers, longer sermons, and songs from the scriptures?

 

[JimmyH]

I have t been to one yet, but I picture it being a bunch of old people with orthodox doctrines and no growth.
But I’m sure I just have a caricature in my mind. I’m kind of just feeling around for people’s experiences with reformed Presbyterian churches.

Though the congregation I attend is a mix of old, middle aged, and young, ours is a very traditional, some might say old fashioned, worship service. No video screens, or musicians on a stage. We sing out of the Trinity Hymnal. Suits me down to the ground, but I'm an old fellow, not quite dead yet though.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

Is this what you mean from A.W. Tozer:

"Sound Bible exposition is an imperative must in the Church of the Living God. Without it no church can be a New Testament church in any strict meaning of that term. But exposition may be carried on in such way as to leave the hearers devoid of any true spiritual nourishment whatever. For it is not mere words that nourish the soul, but God Himself, and unless and until the hearers find God in personal experience they are not the better for having heard the truth. The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts."

 

[jwithnell]

You know how you sometimes need to use bright colors and over-excited voices to get a child's attention? The same is true in the church.

As long as a church appeals to childish means, people will not be expected to stretch and grow.

But what about appealing to the local culture? That's not the church's job -- it is to disciple believers into maturity so that we can go out and deal gently and appealing to the lost.

 

[Jack K]

Jordan,

I'm going to answer differently from those above, because I assume you're asking if hearts are alive rather than asking if the worship service looks lively on the outside.

I have seen plenty of dead orthodoxy among Reformed/Presbyterian people, probably because most of my life has been spent around Reformed/Presbyterian people. Deadness is a concern in any church, and dead orthodoxy is going to be a concern in any church that prizes right doctrine. In fact, I have BEEN dead orthodoxy far too often. I've gone to worship congratulating myself on having chosen a good church and knowing right doctrine, but I remained cold to God.

I have also encountered Reformed churches that are smug about their rightness in a way that makes them cold to their community. They are not welcoming, and then when they don't grow they consider this a validation of how they haven't caved to the culture. They fail to understand that in the US, being truly welcoming is largely about what you do long before a visitor walks through the church door.

I say you should beware of any church that seems cold in those ways and is unconcerned about it.

But I also think that, given where you live, you would be able to find plenty of Reformed choices that aren't stuck in those kinds of deadness. And although small and/or old doesn't necessarily mean a church is dead, you should be able to find plenty that have newcomers and young people as well. In fact, if you searched your area for PCA, OPC or URCNA congregations, I imagine you would find several that seem not too different from your current church.

 

[JTB.SDG]

I would answer the same way as Jack. The BCO says true worship must be in BOTH spirit AND truth. And, I think that's also based in Scripture somewhere (of course it is). We used to use the terms: head churches and heart churches. There are some churches that seem to focus on just feeding the head; they just do. And you are right, sorry folks, I've experienced this a ton in my own denomination (PCA); I refuse to deny this happens. And I agree with Jack again, that one of the marks here is a lot of the "application" tends to be basically how *we* are doing everything right versus all the other churches. How self-righteous is that. (Lord, thank you that we are not like those other churches down the road...) Sounds familiar for some reason. Other churches tend to focus on life transformation (IE: heart) but the preaching tends to be way too shallow. This isn't right either. Healthy churches are those that strive to worship in both spirit and truth.

 

[bookslover]

I have t been to one yet, but I picture it being a bunch of old people with orthodox doctrines and no growth.
But I’m sure I just have a caricature in my mind. I’m kind of just feeling around for people’s experiences with reformed Presbyterian churches.

Since you're just in Mission Viejo, you should come up and visit us (OPC) in Westminster in Orange County. We have our quota of oldsters (including me), but we have several young families in our church and lots of young children in the congregation. And the preaching (by B. J. Gorrell) is fantastic. Come check us out.

 

[Solparvus]

There’s some truth in all stereotypes, as a apparent from those who have spoken already. I suppose I had this fear too.

I’m now a member of the RPCNA, and my congregation is one of the very best churches I’ve been in. Spiritual, lively, good preaching!

 

[Gforce9]

There’s some truth in all stereotypes, as a apparent from those who have spoken already. I suppose I had this fear too.

I’m now a member of the RPCNA, and my congregation is one of the very best churches I’ve been in. Spiritual, lively, good preaching!

This was my experience as well.

 

[TylerRay]

I haven't been to one yet, but I picture it being a bunch of old people with orthodox doctrines and no growth.
But I’m sure I just have a caricature in my mind. I’m kind of just feeling around for people’s experiences with reformed Presbyterian churches.

If my congregation can be taken as an example, we are just about as old school and traditional as Presbyterians can be, and our church is growing (though we're still small), and the majority of the congregation is made up of young families.

 

[De Jager]

Is it a caricature to believe that most reformed Presbyterian churches practice a cold, dead orthodoxy? I am considering visiting a reformed Presbyterian church, but I picture them being lifeless.

Am I wrong to believe that about the majority?

Whether people think it is cold and dead is next to irrelevant, the question is, is it biblical?

I am not trying to harp on you here in particular, but I loathe the evangelical mindset that 'reformed' Christianity = dead and lifeless.

The fact is that the Christian life is roller coaster of ups and downs. The worship service is supposed to point us to God, not jack our emotions up into an artificial high.

 

[chuckd]

Is it a caricature to believe that most reformed Presbyterian churches practice a cold, dead orthodoxy? I am considering visiting a reformed Presbyterian church, but I picture them being lifeless.

Am I wrong to believe that about the majority?

It will be a difference from your typical non-denominational church that just popped up and is growing with a bunch of single, young people. However, the sermons, hymns, liturgy, etc. will be more rich and historical. Not cold and dead, but certainly "old." I'm in my early 30's and moving to the PCA was a breath of fresh air. The creeds, confessions, hymns, doxology, benediction, etc. makes you feel like you are worshipping with those in the past, not whatever worship was created de novo by the pastor who started the church. And yes, more elderly people who believe the same. Lots of knowledge and experience. Every congregation is different, but mine has tons of young families and we are fairly small.

 

[Mason]

I am not trying to harp on you here in particular, but I loathe the evangelical mindset that 'reformed' Christianity = dead and lifeless.

It's to be expected; effete worship birthed out of a history of revivalism which chases emotional highs has no room for pensive, regulated worship.

 

[JTB.SDG]

Whether people think it is cold and dead is next to irrelevant, the question is, is it biblical?

I am not trying to harp on you here in particular, but I loathe the evangelical mindset that 'reformed' Christianity = dead and lifeless.

The fact is that the Christian life is roller coaster of ups and downs. The worship service is supposed to point us to God, not jack our emotions up into an artificial high.

I think brother the concern is the difference between hearing a sermon on Sunday morning versus hearing a *lecture* that is *biblically orthodox* but fails to challenge, fails to bring God's Word to bear on our daily life, fails to call out God's people with sin in their life they need to repent of; fails to truly meet head on where God's people are at WITH God's Word and bring the rich comforts of grace to bear. A lecture isn't a sermon. Do you *loathe* hearing lectures rather than sermons Sunday mornings? I do.

 

[LadyCalvinist]

Them's fighting words! I have been to many churches in my life and I have found liberal churches to be cold and lifeless. Sound Presbyterian churches tend to be more intellectual, that is there is more preaching on doctrine, and perhaps, more austere. I will take that any day of the week and twice on Sunday. There is a desperate need for sound teaching in Christian churches and too many seem to aim to tickle people' ears and tell them what they want to hear and not what they need to hear.

 

[De Jager]

I think brother the concern is the difference between hearing a sermon on Sunday morning versus hearing a *lecture* that is *biblically orthodox* but fails to challenge, fails to bring God's Word to bear on our daily life, fails to call out God's people with sin in their life they need to repent of; fails to truly meet head on where God's people are at WITH God's Word and bring the rich comforts of grace to bear. A lecture isn't a sermon. Do you *loathe* hearing lectures rather than sermons Sunday mornings? I do.

I would rather hear a lecture than an american evangelical 'sermon'.

A reformed sermon of course, is preferable.

Besides, a preacher that does not exhort is not being biblically orthodox, because calling people to repentance and faith is his job. His job is twofold, 1) preach the word correctly, 2) call people to repentance and faith. If you only do 1/2 you are not qualified for the job.

I would find a church where the pastor is doing 2/2.

 

[sc_q_jayce]

Is it a caricature to believe that most reformed Presbyterian churches practice a cold, dead orthodoxy? I am considering visiting a reformed Presbyterian church, but I picture them being lifeless.

Am I wrong to believe that about the majority?

I think the best way to prove this caricature right or wrong is to just go to one and see for yourself. Interact with people and see if they seem cold or dead. Maybe you'll find some who are. Maybe you'll find some who aren't. Either way, the gospel is for them just as much as it is for you.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I thought that the title of this thread was a reference to a Charlton Heston quote.

More seriously, to accuse churches of being "dead" is a very harsh judgment, which should not be made lightly. Speaking from personal experience on this side of the pond, many of the smaller Reformed congregations can sometimes come across as a bit cold but that is not always the case. It certainly would not be wise to come to that conclusion about a particular Reformed church unless one had first hand experience of it.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Is it a caricature to believe that most reformed Presbyterian churches practice a cold, dead orthodoxy?

I take it, Jordan, that what you have in mind are Reformed and Presbyterian churches that are confessional, i.e., doctrinally sound, while at the same time lacking in warmth/love (as was the church in Ephesus in Rev. 2:1-7; my pastor has a good sermon on this problem among us: https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12181741427).

If there is something that historically has afflicted such orthodox churches, brothers and sisters, it is a lack of love (a "heartiness" to go along with our "headiness"). That other churches have other kind of problems (muddled doctrine, unregulated worship, etc.) is beside the point. We do have such a problem historically among us and it will do us no good to deny it.

As has been noted herein, we too often have doctrinal lectures instead of sermons, are good at being scrupulous in doctrine, worship, and life but not as good at being loving and caring, and the like. Yes, there is a caricature of this bandied about and many of our churches are sensitive to these weaknesses.

Even then, though, caricatures often exist and linger because there is a measure of truth in them. I confess my own part in this: being doctrinally punctilious comes easy to me in a way that truly loving and giving myself to others doesn't. Much of my repentance and many of my prayers involve these concerns as they appear in my own life.

But, Jordan, all that having been said, the remedy to this is not to go elsewhere--as if churches that believe and worship amiss are to be preferred because they appear to be (whether truly or not) loving. The prescription for what ails us is ever to be warmed by God's love so that we love Him, each other, and those on the outside more. We need to do better at what we're weak at (loving the lost, particularly), without giving up the strength with which we've been blessed (doctrinal soundness).

As I often say, our Reformed and Presbyterian Churches are the worst churches, except for every other church out there! We must be able to see and diagnose our weaknesses properly as we go forward.

Peace,
Alan

 

[RamistThomist]

Is it a caricature to believe that most reformed Presbyterian churches practice a cold, dead orthodoxy? I am considering visiting a reformed Presbyterian church, but I picture them being lifeless.

Am I wrong to believe that about the majority?

Most Baptist megachurches I visit have about 40% of the people participating in the praise and worship songs. The only time there are signs of life is when they play the comedy video at the end of the service.

 

[RamistThomist]

Also, how do we evaluate "lively"? What is the criteria? For example, I have a dead-pan facial expression 100% of the time. I am Scottish by heritage and I came from the OPC. When I joined an ARP church they always joked with me that I never smiled.

 

[OPC'n]

I moved from PCA to OPC in 2005 and haven't looked back. Nothing about the church I go to is dead. We have our sins, of course, but the teaching and the people are solid and certainly not dead.

My sister doesn't like my church because we aren't "expressive" enough with our singing. But I'm still not convinced about her salvation so this doesn't surprise me. In any case, her and I are very different when it comes to church. I like order (would love if we were EP) that elicits true worship and reverence towards God, and she likes emotional singing that makes her feel sentimental towards an idea of God. I can't say that my rathers are more pure than hers are. We came from cultic church that was like Pentecostal (but worse). I like to run as far from that as I can, and she seems to find solace in that type of worship when she does go to church which isn't often. BTW, she could use everyone's prayers.

 

[Cymro]

I have been hesitating whether to contribute, as the topic can be argued from personal preferences to different
modes of preaching. But drawing from the library of my mind, I can remember our old Welsh preachers who touched the soul as well as the head. Essential teaching but leavened with the experiential that moved the heart to praise or tears. What Dr M.L. Jones styled as logic on fire. He himself being an example of what I have sought to illustrate. There was always a noticeable power upon them as if they had come out from the presence of God.
Sadly there is at present what I would term as A4 lectures, that are not quickening and not as edifying as in past days. Colleges seem to be manufacturers of leather tongues, whereas preachers tongues used to be pens of ready writers concerning the King. I realise that there can be fluctuations from district to district, and from church to church, but there is a malaise in this nation that can only be remedied by the anointing on the preachers, which of course we as congregations should be praying for. “When He is come”!