Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, and their Ignorance Fest on Calvinism (James White)

Discussion in 'Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace' started by Blue Tick, Oct 6, 2009.

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  1. Blue Tick

    Blue Tick Puritan Board Graduate

    Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, and their Ignorance Fest on Calvinism (James White)

    [video=youtube;U8whxBj2fQY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8whxBj2fQY&feature=sub[/video]
     
  2. PresbyDane

    PresbyDane Puritanboard Doctor

    We SO need a James White in danish over here!

    Great clip by the way
     
  3. ewenlin

    ewenlin Puritan Board Junior

    Very very very very frustrating.

    Just like the old Dave Hunt stuff, the methodology and attitude used and portrayed by seemingly scholarly arminians is just :soapbox:

    :wwbd: I'd ask. Seems easier to just leave them in their own lies and false doctrines than to try and engage them.
     
  4. discipulo

    discipulo Puritan Board Junior

    he actually calls Calvinists cultists :duh:
     
  5. Hebrew Student

    Hebrew Student Puritan Board Freshman

    This always bothered me about folks like Dave Hunt and Chuck Smith. I have found arminians, for example, in places like the Church of the Nazarene and the Assemblies of God who, while they strongly disagree with you, will accept you as a brother in Christ, and be very close Christian brothers and sisters. However, these guys are really leaning towards out and out hatred of fellow bretheren in Christ, and all because of an issue upon which our eternal salvation does not depend. Something tells me that maybe there is just a little imbalance here?

    God Bless,
    Adam
     
  6. discipulo

    discipulo Puritan Board Junior

    Good point, a guy like Gordon Fee interacts in a clean, irenic, dignified way.

    Those guys like Smith or Hunt seem to suffer from a kind of spiritual jealousy,

    scholasticism would call that: Odium Theologicum
     
  7. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    He doesn't call them "cultists". He compares them to cultists on the score of learning a few proof texts and camping out there. The accusation is wrong (though no doubt some Calvinists do learn their 5 points and stop there), but it is not the same thing as saying "Calvinism is a cult."
     
  8. Julio Martinez Jr

    Julio Martinez Jr Puritan Board Freshman

    I actual heard something similar this past week about me. They said that the Presbyterians are all a cult, only because I did not want to debate something that was obviously going nowhere and all the comments were ad hominem. Sometimes you need to know when to call it quits with someone. Usually comments like this warrant Proverbs 26:4 "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself."
     
  9. Blue Tick

    Blue Tick Puritan Board Graduate

    The problem with the CC boys is a lot of their experience with Calvinists and Reformed doctrine is from the internal "Converts" within CC. Here's the so common scenario, someone in CC stumbles upon the DoG is convinced of God's sovereignty in salvation, realize what they've been taught is all wrong, then go on the war path to correct everyone. As a result their "very zealous for truth", from the CC perspective this is "divisive" because CC paints an underlying attitude of having a monopoly on the truth of the Bible. Obviously they don't. So, to give them the benefit of the doubt most CC pastors and layman are only exposed to the recent converts to Reformed doctrine. Those beloved saints (me included at one time) who are on fire for the truth of God’s Word could be more gracious when dealing with CC people. Don’t get me the leaders should repent and turn from the idol of “Super-Free-Willism” but for reasons I don’t know God has left them in the dark on these issues.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2009
  10. Rich Koster

    Rich Koster Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    By me, there are 2 "Christian" radio stations on FM. The first is a K-LOVE network station, the other is 90.5 which plays mostly Calvary Chapel stuff. I listened for a while, but got worn out by their Dispensational rapture stuff :barfy: and their anti-Reformed comments :mad:. Therefore, if I do turn on the FM radio anymore it is to WRTI....classical by day, jazz by night.

    I was going to send a nastygram to the station expressing my disapproval of their Anti-Calvinist comments & poor doctrine, but decided to save the stamp. I have opposed leadership that was teaching garbage before, and all I ever got from it was worn out. It is amazing how many people follow blindly and never ask questions when something doesn't sit quite right. I have questioned bad doctrine and made some enemies just for asking. Pharisees don't like to explain themselves in an educated debate because they fear that the holes in their arguments will be exposed.
     
  11. Jesus is my friend

    Jesus is my friend Puritan Board Junior

    It's funny that Dr. White is dead on right,My dear friends at Calvary would tell us to read our Bibles constantly and gave us that good biblical foundation and through it realized they were wrong on their soteriology and other issues too and just like Dr White said these people would read their Bibles,see the Truth and leave,(on good terms).We were one of those families among others who left,as much as we love our brothers there we are glad to be in a Reformed,Confessional Church that's all about God and His Glory

    Thanks for posting this I will past it on with discernment
     
  12. Sean Strupp

    Sean Strupp Puritan Board Freshman

    I have friends who attend a calvary chapel and their pastor has placed the Calvinists in the same camp as the Mormons and have been told that they are being unequally yoked with non-believers if they keep fellowship with the likes of us.

    -----Added 10/6/2009 at 11:50:28 EST-----

    wise choice
     
  13. jason d

    jason d Puritan Board Freshman

    I went to Calvary Chapels for years and tried to be a "Closet Calvinist" but I just couldn't take all the Calvinist bashing... well that and when we were in Romans 9 it was just sad. This is frustrating but very common with those who are anti-Calvinist... they usually aren't even talking about true Calvinism
     
  14. beej6

    beej6 Puritan Board Sophomore

    Since Calvinism is, simply, the most consistent form of Biblical Christianity, I can only conclude that those strident CC folks haven't read their Bibles well enough. Like any part of the OT, Romans, or Hebrews.
     
  15. Scott1

    Scott1 Puritan Board Doctor

    This confirms my experience in engaging those who think themselves opposed to "Calvinism" (the "five points").

    They attend Arminian-influenced, dispensational churches with no confession of faith for clarity or accountability. Some even imagine themselves "more spiritual" not having a confession.

    They tend to know and articulate Arminianism, dispensationalism fairly well. They may know a standard list of objections to "Calvinism" but they do not understand Calvinism. These folks, though leaders who ought to have had more exposure to the Scripture and theology, really ought to know more of which they speak.

    Notice how the second speaker, almost smugly says "they have their verses," referring I suppose to the systematic reformed theology (which blows their arguments away). But at the end, he says, "but we go by the Bible." Really? Then why won't you deal with "their" ("Calvinist") verses? Is he really not aware that what is now called "Calvinism" is the historic position of the church and that his (with the charismatic/pentecostal interventions) is of especially recent vintage?

    Also, does he really so woefully misunderstand "the five points" to believe it says man has no will? Really?

    Someone needs to send him a short letter explaining the use of the word 'will' in a decretal, dispositive and preceptive sense. He no doubt uses it himself in those different senses, with different intended meanings but apparently doesn't realize so does God's Word.

    Rather than be dismayed at this ignorance, it ought encourage you to engage people who think this way. Many of these people are Christians, but woefully, embarrassingly ignorant of God's Word.
     
  16. jason d

    jason d Puritan Board Freshman

    :soapbox:

    It does, and if someone has a misunderstanding then I want to go to the Bible with them and show them their error (as I would want someone to do for me).

    The thing with Calvary Chapel though (at least the ones I've attended and heard on the radio) is that they are trained to not engage with Calvinist and to just write them off as "Un-Biblical" and "followers of a man".

    I know cause I was trained this way. Even in our bookstore we have more "Anti-Calvinist" book than any other subject.

    Interesting thing is the majority of people at the church I go to now (which is Calvinistic) started off in Calvary Chapels, and since Calvary Chapels have a high view of verse by verse expository preaching you eventually wind up hitting lots of text that go against your Arminianism :)
     
  17. Cary Loughman

    Cary Loughman Puritan Board Freshman

    On yesterday's DL, the one speaker spoke of Calvinism leaving out Jesus, but solely relies on Paul, which is obviously such an absurd view that it barely deserves a refutation. While Dr. White talked about "Red Letter Christians," what struck me is that Calvinism leaves out the CC version of "Jesus," the one where Jesus' death on the cross only makes us saveable.

    So, I agree, Calvinism does leave out their version of Jesus, but includes Jesus the Christ, the Jesus of Scripture, so named because he is the Savior of the world of all who will believe, not some potential savior "Jesus" that died for all and is not seated at the right hand of God with His fingers crossed on his nail scarred hands, hoping that some will accept his gift.

    Calvinism is indeed guilty of leaving that Jesus out of its theology---all glory to God.
     
  18. MMasztal

    MMasztal Puritan Board Sophomore

    We have a CC here in town and a whole bunch of students' families in our school go there. From what I've read on their "position papers" on Calvinism and the overall Biblical knowledge of the students who attend there, I'd have to say they are theological lightweights afraid to address any difficult areas in the Bible.

    I'm teaching a theology class right now and have been hitting the doctrines of grace pretty heavily. It's apparent that the CC students really have no idea what the DoG are about. I've been getting some pretty bizarre responses from the students obviously from their parents in regards to the parents' (and CC's) interpretations of Romans 8 & 9. I'm waiting for a formal complaint to the principal. If that happens, I've determined to bring my Bible, give it to the parent and tell them to show me where I'm wrong. I'm not worried :D
     
  19. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    I am one of those 'converts' Dr. White referred to. I came to the DoG partially because of the encouragement I received from Calvary pastors. As Dr. White mentions, one of the problems they face is an 'archbishop' type of ecclesiology. This ecclesiology is the reason I believe for CC's frustration over 'Reformation Theology', as Smith calls it. Because Smith is frustrated, this frustration trickles down. He grows up other pastors that are frustrated. And they grow up others, etc. Here is a quote from Smith that shows the inner battle that goes on inside his heart:

    I am thankful for the charity shown me by those at CC and hope that the Lord will soon resolve this issue in his mind.
     
  20. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior

    Chuck Missler is big with CC. He did an article a while back about how amilenialism was responsible for Hitler's holocaust and "replacement theology" (the church fills the promises to Israel) is heresy.
     
  21. Blue Tick

    Blue Tick Puritan Board Graduate


    There are Christians within in CC who are very charitable and God fearing. Very thankful for one of my close friends still involved with CC.

    I think Pastor Chuck fails to see that God can give us mental and intellectual trials not only physical trials. There have been many times in my life where I've had intellectual trials trying to work through certian biblical doctrines.

    -----Added 10/7/2009 at 09:34:14 EST-----

    Missler is a good example why businessmen should not exegete Scripture without any training. Missler is a big proponent of the Nephilim being the offspring of fallen angles and women.
     
  22. Marrow Man

    Marrow Man Drunk with Powder

    We have a former CC member (many years ago) who attends our church. He used to teach a cults class at CC, but he began to have problems with the dispensationalism taught. He came to Chuck Smith personally with some questions (not outright objections, but simply questions), and was unceremoniously dropped from his teaching duties.
     
  23. Scott1

    Scott1 Puritan Board Doctor

    And Mr. Smith has done a remarkable job taking a basic gospel and some Bible teaching to a lost generation of young people from the 60's generation lifestyle. No doubt God has used him and that denomination to bring some to Himself, despite some error and problems.

    As time has gone on, God is now calling out the foundation and it is being revealed with major errors- not only the Arminian influence and dispensationalism, but the lack of accountability of leadership and governance, lack of biblical practice of the sacraments, and an attitude centered too much around the person of the founder. These things can be repented of, changed and restored, only by God's grace.

    Use your past experience to get access to these people, use it and trust God. Pray for those opportunities. They were there for a purpose. Don't worry so much about what you think the response will be, use the access and be faithful.

    Explain that God saves us, we don't decide that, God does. Rely on Scripture, and trust the Holy Spirit to convict them and illuminate their understanding of this truth. Once that happens, we may be privileged to see more people move into the truths of the Sovereignty of God, and his continuous plan of redemption.
     
  24. Rich Koster

    Rich Koster Puritan Board Post-Graduate




    He has more mystic stuff to help enlighten us than that.....
     
  25. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    John 3.16!!!!!!
     
  26. tdowns

    tdowns Puritan Board Junior

    So true...

    Been there, seen (and kinda did) that...:)

    :D
     
  27. Julio Martinez Jr

    Julio Martinez Jr Puritan Board Freshman

    This reminds me of Rome. That's a bunch of immaturity. I can't believe people can't even ask questions now.
     
  28. MMasztal

    MMasztal Puritan Board Sophomore

    I just listened to this tripe by Chuck Smith. This is worse than I had expected. I knew they were lightweights, but believed they were quiet about the Reformed Christians.

    The reason he doesn't entertain questions about Calvinism is that he knows his theological groundings are weak. The explanation he gave for Romans 8:28-30 was absurd.

    Since I just finished a 2 month study on Logic with my Theology class, I'm going to play this and dissect the numerous logical fallacies he commits with his comments.
     
  29. Julio Martinez Jr

    Julio Martinez Jr Puritan Board Freshman

    That's awesome. Get them to think.
     
  30. TheFleshProfitethNothing

    TheFleshProfitethNothing Puritan Board Freshman

    What does one expect from the unbelievers out there? Well meaning?? HMM! To Whom? If they were to give UP their Will Worship, would they be believers then? Ask them about 'will worship' and let's see what they truly trust in.

    Which of the MANY Christs out their...though there is only one, (the others are all the same in their basic doctine)...are they trusting in?
     
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