Christianity and logic
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WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
God created Logic and thinks in a Logical fashion. We think in a manner that is in the likeness of how God thinks, but with succession and contemplation (God does not have to think successive thoughts nor contemplate). We are to think logically and recognize that there is an invariant, transcendental universal known as "Logic" or the "Laws of Logic," as being the manner of rational thought created by God Himself.
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Scripture is logically coherent, and does not contradict itself (contrary to Liberalism). Scripture is God's revealed Word.
BobVigneault
Bawberator
God's thinking is best described as hyper-logic of which logic as we know it is a shadow or extenision of God's hyper-logic. Hyper-logic takes place in an infinitely multi-dimensional environment which is the mind of God. Logic was indeed created for the specific purpose of revelaton. Hyper-logic however is the reasoning of God and is pre-eternal.
I made all of this up. I'm calling dibs on 'hyper-logic'. Perhaps I'll right the book.
[Edited on 5-10-2006 by BobVigneault]
I made all of this up. I'm calling dibs on 'hyper-logic'. Perhaps I'll right the book.
[Edited on 5-10-2006 by BobVigneault]
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Is this what is meant by "reasonable soul"
Shorter Catechism Q 22
Q: How did Christ, being the Son of God, become man?
A: Christ, the Son of God, became man, by taking to himself a true body, and a reasonable soul,1 being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and born of her,2 yet without sin.3
Shorter Catechism Q 22
Q: How did Christ, being the Son of God, become man?
A: Christ, the Son of God, became man, by taking to himself a true body, and a reasonable soul,1 being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and born of her,2 yet without sin.3
Logic is "how" God thinks. He did not create it, for it is part of his nature.
We believe in logic, because the Bible is not only logical, but so are we, as creatures made in the image of God.
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.
This is contra the beasts who are said to be "brute" which in the greek actually means "without reason."
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
2Pe 2:12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
G249
ἀÌλογος
alogos
al'-og-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G3056; irrational: - brute, unreasonable.
G249
ἀÌλογος
alogos
Thayer Definition:
1) destitute of reason
2) contrary to reason, absurd
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer´s/Strong´s Number: from G1 (as a negative particle) and G3056
Citing in TDNT: 4:141, 505
Psa 32:9 Do not be like the horse or like the mule, Which have no understanding, Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle, Else they will not come near you.
Pro 30:2 Surely I am more stupid than any man, And do not have the understanding of a man.
We believe in logic, because the Bible is not only logical, but so are we, as creatures made in the image of God.
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.
This is contra the beasts who are said to be "brute" which in the greek actually means "without reason."
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
2Pe 2:12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
G249
ἀÌλογος
alogos
al'-og-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G3056; irrational: - brute, unreasonable.
G249
ἀÌλογος
alogos
Thayer Definition:
1) destitute of reason
2) contrary to reason, absurd
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer´s/Strong´s Number: from G1 (as a negative particle) and G3056
Citing in TDNT: 4:141, 505
Psa 32:9 Do not be like the horse or like the mule, Which have no understanding, Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle, Else they will not come near you.
Pro 30:2 Surely I am more stupid than any man, And do not have the understanding of a man.
Laura
Puritan Board Junior
That's very helpful, Jeff, thanks. I had no idea about the Greek root. The mention of absurdity reminds me: I as thinking awhile back that for even my Christian friends, what most amuses them is nonsense. I mean imagining situations that are utterly senseless, plotting ridiculous schemes just for the fun of it, etc. I'm not saying that it is in itself always reprehensible, but it's definitely something worth considering. Looking back a hundred years ago to what was considered humorous, it's telling how we've evolved. Then, comedy tended to make sense at the least, and was tasteful and intelligent at best. Now the weirder something is, the funnier; not merely in the sense of ironic, as in something you wouldn't expect, but things that have only the minimal basis in reality. Not to mention the more and more typical appeals to the basest desires of humanity for humor. I guess when we are in a world that seems increasingly to hate reason--except when it helps make the weaker argument appear the stronger, a la Sophist rhetoric--that's to be expected.
BobVigneault
Bawberator
No definitions are necessary Sean. My target audience will be young pastors who want to make a quick name for themselves. "Hyper-logic" and "Pre-eternal" are buzzwords, or rather the new fad is to call them 'nuances'. These young theologs will use these nuanced words and never define them. They will put down anyone who calls for definitions by accusing the inquisitors of 'a lack of sophistry' and 'pharisaical heresy hunting'. I will point out that Augustine, Calvin and even Paul himself used these hellinistic concepts but never actually named them.
Don't stop me now Sean, there is a bundle of cash to be made here. So watch who you call an 'oxymoron'. I'm a hyper-moron!
ChristianTrader
Puritan Board Graduate
Two points/questions,
1)For your objection to have teeth, you would have to believe that time is eternal and God did not create it. I should hope that no one here believes such. If one believes that time is created, then bringing logic in at the same time is not a problem.
2)What does thinking logically mean when applied to God?
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Thank you. The trigger happy heresy hunt can move along.
Magma2
Puritan Board Sophomore
1. That doesn't follow. If logic is created then there was a point when it was not. As for time, I would say that it is the experience of thoughts as they pass through the minds of men -- and other created beings I suppose (although I have doubts about my dog) -- as they exist in the eternal mind of God. Consequently, I fail to see how a question of time impacts the question of whether or not the forms of logic, without which all rational thought and communication would be impossible, are created?
2. I would think it means the same thing as when applied to men.
Hope that helps.
It's all very Dooyeweerdian. But if you can make a buck, who am I to complain. 
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
No they don't.
BobVigneault
Bawberator
Gabe,
I've heard many a teacher refer to the Logos as the 'logic' of God. They speak as if the revelation of God in Christ is synonymous with 'The Logic". Is there a speck of truth in that? Is it good exegesis or is it just wishful thinking?
I've heard many a teacher refer to the Logos as the 'logic' of God. They speak as if the revelation of God in Christ is synonymous with 'The Logic". Is there a speck of truth in that? Is it good exegesis or is it just wishful thinking?
ChristianTrader
Puritan Board Graduate
I think it would be best to address the second issue first. How can a finite creature thinking be the same as the an infinite all-knowing being who knows everything and the relationships between everything all at once?
Your only hope is to say that the differences are unimportant. But to say there are no differences is nonsense.
CT
Magma2
Puritan Board Sophomore
I don't see why you have to be so touchy? As for my part I was just trying to press you to see the kinds of problems that arise if you say logic is created. John 1:1 tells us that the eternal Logos or Logic was God, so it would seem that logic is uncreated.
As to the other question from LadyFlynt and what is a rational soul as it's applied to the incarnate Christ? I would think it means that as a man Jesus thought as a man. Meaning thoughts passed through His mind as they do in ours. Of course, being sinless Jesus would only think true thoughts in conformity to His Father's will. But I'm only guessing as to what the Confession writers actually meant.
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Well, the word Logos in philosophy is a rather loaded word. I think we have to be careful to ascribe any "absolute" meaning to the word, when it is found in John 1. I'm not prepared to make a decision on that yet, either. I recognize the fact that I'm a 23 year old college student, not the next John Owen. I depend upon my Church Fathers of the Reformed tradition for exegesis, not my own intuitions. That said, it does seem possible that Logos is referring to logic, but more probable that it is simply referring to Christ as God's creating Word, another meaning of the word Logos.
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
I'm reacting tongue-in-cheek to the touchy-ness of the several posters on this thread who seemed to ascribe "dangerous theology" to what I said. Logic, as we understand it, could not be eternally existing. God doesn't think the same way we do, because He uses no succession or syllogisms in His thought. All He thinks simply is. There are no premises and conclusions, deduction or induction, etc. within God's thought. So, like I said, God created Logic, the way in which we, as creatures, think in the likeness of God, who is completly rational - but on an altogether different level.
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Time is conventional. Speaking in "time language" does not prove time, nor imply that one is presupposing time to exist. It is simply how we relate to our existence and one another within such existence.
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
God doesn't think the same way we do, because He uses no succession or syllogisms in His thought. All He thinks simply is. There are no premises and conclusions, deduction or induction, etc. within God's thought. So, like I said, God created Logic, the way in which we, as creatures, think in the likeness of God, who is completly rational - but on an altogether different level.
I've provided scriptural support for my view. Do you care to share where you find this in scripture?
If God is to have any thoughts at all, we had better hope they be logical ones.
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