N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
At least he didn't say Jerry Springer!
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The only classis that does not seat women delegates is my own classis, Minnkota. They are still fighting, but are gradually losing their will to fight, I think. When the liberals are in charge, and they aren't listening to the conservatives AT ALL, then it gets difficult to want to stay in.
It's great that there's still one classis holding out, along with any number of local churches. But it must be difficult to hold your position on women's ordination in the local church and at classis, only to go to synod and have not only women delegates seated around you, but also on the executive.
Yep. That's our entire problem. Now, we have to go to a synod that we believe is illegitimately constituted. I am pushing rather strongly for non-involvement, since signing a letter of protest (that abysmal dog-bone that the liberals threw to the poor, defeated conservatives) is simply not sufficient. Eventually, we will give up even signing, since signing a protest does nothing, and is not even recorded anywhere important.
We are currently in the midst of this same issue. I am not sure that I can retain my membership in the CRC with a clear conscience - there are simply too many holes in the bucket to hold any water as a denomination. I was actually talking to an elder a couple of weeks ago who told me that our particular church doesn't identify with the CRC much any more. (And that's classis Hamilton). We've got women deacons (and even some elders in the more liberal congregations, I believe). With Calvin seminary ordaining women, who can honestly say that there is much of a future? Synod is not only accepting female delegates, but voting them into executive positions: Thea Leunk, Vice President?!?!?!?! With the leadership nearly as circus-like as the Episcopals, I am cringing to thing who will take Jerry Van Dyk's place when he's done.
Christian Reformed Church- I've never heard of this particular denomination before.
Being from West Michigan that is just a totally foreign concept.
I grew up CRC went to the RCA (you've probably never heard of them either) and now am in the URCNA. As mentioned there are some good and some bad churches in the denomination. I'm encouraged by those who wish to see changes and pray for the efforts.
There are some 'famous' CRC people L. Berkhof and C. VanTil (raised in and pastored a CRC church).
I am pretty sure that they allow for paedo-communion now. One of the latest seminary magazines dedicated a bit to this issue and the position is that all baptized members are entitled to the elements.
Was that at the last synod?
Synod 2008 Wrap-up: Decisions at a Glance
Synod 2008 made history by welcoming women as delegates and then by electing a woman to its executive.
Rev. Thea Leunk, pastor of Eastern Avenue Christian Reformed Church in Grand Rapids, Mich., was elected vice president of the Christian Reformed Church in North America’s annual general assembly, which opened Saturday morning at Calvin College in Grand Rapids.
Rev. Joel Boot, the pastor of Ridgewood CRC in Jenison, Mich., was elected as president of synod for the second year in a row. “Sisters and brothers, this has been a long time in coming. This is an historic occasion,” said Boot in his opening remarks. “Last year’s synod made what is happening at this synod permissible. This year’s synod must show that this is possible.”
But that's not really what I was referring to. I was thinking about the fact that the early arguments for women-in-office, for example, could write off texts as "culture" or "temporal" simply because they didn't fit with this present culture. To be able to do that to any part of the Bible was a great shift from 20 or 30 years earlier.
Was that at the last synod?
Was that at the last synod?
Sadly yes. From Synod 2008 Wrap-up - Christian Reformed Church
Synod 2008 Wrap-up: Decisions at a Glance
Synod 2008 made history by welcoming women as delegates and then by electing a woman to its executive.
Rev. Thea Leunk, pastor of Eastern Avenue Christian Reformed Church in Grand Rapids, Mich., was elected vice president of the Christian Reformed Church in North America’s annual general assembly, which opened Saturday morning at Calvin College in Grand Rapids.
Rev. Joel Boot, the pastor of Ridgewood CRC in Jenison, Mich., was elected as president of synod for the second year in a row. “Sisters and brothers, this has been a long time in coming. This is an historic occasion,” said Boot in his opening remarks. “Last year’s synod made what is happening at this synod permissible. This year’s synod must show that this is possible.”
The CRC is in transition, not, as some think, directly to liberalism but to the dominant American religion, "evangelicalism." The CRC is not much like it was theologically or liturgically (theology, piety, and practice) even 50 years ago. The CRC is headed, indirectly, to the mainline. We can always hope and pray but since Synod '95 they've not moved in a confessional direction on a single major issue. That's why I call them a "borderline" church, as distinct from the NAPARC (sideline), and liberal mainline (NCC).
See Recovering the Reformed Confession for more.
The CRC is in transition, not, as some think, directly to liberalism but to the dominant American religion, "evangelicalism." The CRC is not much like it was theologically or liturgically (theology, piety, and practice) even 50 years ago. The CRC is headed, indirectly, to the mainline. We can always hope and pray but since Synod '95 they've not moved in a confessional direction on a single major issue. That's why I call them a "borderline" church, as distinct from the NAPARC (sideline), and liberal mainline (NCC).
See Recovering the Reformed Confession for more.
PLUG!
I have not started the book yet, but I have had a friend who is really into it read me paragraphs. Looking forward to it!
Do you know which one? I grew up ten minutes from Visalia, and there's two CRCs there, one of which runs a K-12 school. It would be great for me to recommend to my semi-Reformed family; the RP church in Fresno is just a bit too far for them to commit to, especially since they're not RPs.I noticed a news items just yesterday about another CRC going URCNA, this one in Visalia, CA.
Conversations with others in my Church that were raised CRC have said the pretty much the same thing. The HC was drilled into them in rote memory style, but they didn't study and "learn" the Scripture that goes with it.
Leslie;
In '86 I had a theological discussion with an emeritus professor from Calvin. In response to my questions, he kept quoting the confessions by heart. After an hour or so of this I said, "You keep quoting the confessions. When I grew up people made a lot of "Sola scriptura". What ever happened to that?
His reply was, "Oh, no one reads the Bible anymore. Theological understanding is so much easier with the confessions."
My theory which may be wrong: In the demise of a church or a denomination, a common scenario is that sola scriptura first becomes sola confession. The Bible is put aside as the passages that teach truths not taken up by the confessions are simply ignored.
I don't mean to imply that these passages contradict the confessions.
It's simply that the writers of the confessions set out to outline systematic theology, not to exhaustively interpret every passage. An example would be the scriptural teaching on gluttony.
Do you know which one? I grew up ten minutes from Visalia, and there's two CRCs there, one of which runs a K-12 school. It would be great for me to recommend to my semi-Reformed family; the RP church in Fresno is just a bit too far for them to commit to, especially since they're not RPs.I noticed a news items just yesterday about another CRC going URCNA, this one in Visalia, CA.
Thanks Mark. I figured it was probably Trinity... the pictures of 1st CRC's "worship services" didn't look like they're ready for the URCs anytime soon. Do you have any other info? I'm guessing it was decided at a congregational meeting or something quite recently... when the full transition will take place, will they be able to keep the building, etc.?Do you know which one? I grew up ten minutes from Visalia, and there's two CRCs there, one of which runs a K-12 school. It would be great for me to recommend to my semi-Reformed family; the RP church in Fresno is just a bit too far for them to commit to, especially since they're not RPs.I noticed a news items just yesterday about another CRC going URCNA, this one in Visalia, CA.
Trinity CRC. Here's their website:
Trinity Christian Reformed Church of Visalia - Sermons
So in such a case, what is the best route for CRC members? Stay and fight, or leave? For myself, I would stay and fight to bring back orthodoxy. But it is the environment that my children will live in that worries me. Some of what young women are wearing to church is simply beyond the pale. What are considered acceptable practises by teenagers would ground my children for a month.
So what to do?
I started it on the plane this week. While I cannot follow him on all points (e.g., 6 day creation), it is a GREAT read!
Someone, in this discussion, said something about people in the CRC learning the HC by rote. Again, I ask, when was that? Precious few catechumens have been asked to memorize the HC for quite a long time.
Leslie;
In '86 I had a theological discussion with an emeritus professor from Calvin. In response to my questions, he kept quoting the confessions by heart. After an hour or so of this I said, "You keep quoting the confessions. When I grew up people made a lot of "Sola scriptura". What ever happened to that?
His reply was, "Oh, no one reads the Bible anymore. Theological understanding is so much easier with the confessions."
It would be easy to agree that, somehow, the church would be more scriptural if only we did not have a Confession. Non-credal churches sometimes make that claim- that they are more "spiritual" because they let everyone read the Bible, and evaluate everything themselves, and not require they be bound by or even have to consider a creed.
The problem with that is that,
1) What doctrine summarized in the Confession specifically do they disagree with?
2) As church's fall away, they quit following the Confession as well as the Scripture.
My theory which may be wrong: In the demise of a church or a denomination, a common scenario is that sola scriptura first becomes sola confession. The Bible is put aside as the passages that teach truths not taken up by the confessions are simply ignored.
If you believe the Confession is putting aside Scripture, you must take an exception to the statement or proposition that you think is doing that.
Confessions can be amended, which shows they are not infallible.
If you cannot receive the Confession as a faithful summary of the doctrine contained in Scripture, one should not be in a Confessional Church.
What doctrine, specifically, do you believe the Confession gets (biblically) wrong?
I don't mean to imply that these passages contradict the confessions.
I don't understand what you mean here- if the Confession is not contradicting Scripture why would you not receive it as a faithful summary of the doctrine contained in Scripture?
It's simply that the writers of the confessions set out to outline systematic theology, not to exhaustively interpret every passage. An example would be the scriptural teaching on gluttony.
That's right- the Confession is not intended to cover every single doctrine or proposition of Scripture, so how is the confession replacing scripture (and that, incorrectly) in these instances when it doesn't even address it? It seems the problem here would not be with the Confession, since it doesn't address that doctrine?
Can you name one denomination that has abandoned its historic Confession and become more biblical?
Remember, in Reformed Theology, the unity of the church must be based on doctrinal agreement.
Thanks Mark. I figured it was probably Trinity... the pictures of 1st CRC's "worship services" didn't look like they're ready for the URCs anytime soon. Do you have any other info? I'm guessing it was decided at a congregational meeting or something quite recently... when the full transition will take place, will they be able to keep the building, etc.?Do you know which one? I grew up ten minutes from Visalia, and there's two CRCs there, one of which runs a K-12 school. It would be great for me to recommend to my semi-Reformed family; the RP church in Fresno is just a bit too far for them to commit to, especially since they're not RPs.
Trinity CRC. Here's their website:
Trinity Christian Reformed Church of Visalia - Sermons
I started it on the plane this week. While I cannot follow him on all points (e.g., 6 day creation), it is a GREAT read!
Hi Dennis,
What did you read me to say about 6 day creation?
I started it on the plane this week. While I cannot follow him on all points (e.g., 6 day creation), it is a GREAT read!
Hi Dennis,
What did you read me to say about 6 day creation?
Oops! I was just trying to commend your book as a great read, not engage the author and reveal my own narrowness. Over the past decade, my thinking has moved from a pretty open Hugh Ross type agnosticism regarding origins ("as long as there was a literal Adam and fall, I don't care about the timetable") taught to me at Westmont and Fuller to a more traditional interpretation (cf. Kelly, Mohler, or Sproul).
You were heard by me as saying that young earth creationism ("6/24 creation") ought not be a boundary marker for Reformed orthodoxy. You associate 6/24 creation with a fundamentalizing QIRC. Specifically, you summarize the argument of the 6/24 boundary marker folks as saying that the Bible teaches a 6/24 view of creation and not to accept the Bible's teaching here is tantamount to not believing it anywhere. You see the argument in such form as being fallacious, comparing it to Luther against Zwingli at Marburg.
Grudem has convinced me that evangelical feminism bears a causal relationship to liberalism as a precursor. In a similar way, it seems to me that some of the difficulties we face with uncertainty regarding homosexuality today have more than an accidental connection to a refusal to take Genesis 1-11 at face value. Some of the science types (PhDs in biochemistry, astrophysics, and genetics) at Answers in Genesis have been effective in convincing me that the data of science are compatible with a more or less straight forward reading of Genesis. The problem would not seem to be with the "science" per se, but with the presuppositional worldview (naturalism vs. theism) that animates the proponents in the discussion.
We would probably both agree that good people of impeccable orthodoxy can be found on both sides of this issue and that it ought not be a boundary marker for orthodoxy. My contention, however, would be that while people like Kline hold their view for honest exegetical reasons, such mediating and compromising positions tend towards "too clever by half" evasions of the "plain" or "staightforward" meaning of the text in places such as Romans 1 or 1 Timothy 2.
Stated reductionistically, when scholars try to interpret the text saying that "you think it means this because it says that, but it REALLY means something else according to this very technically complex rabbit trail of argumentation I will lead you down," the practical result is a loss of confidence in the perspicuity of the Bible. For example, some of the strongest proponents for the "no divorce" exegesis behind the "consanguineous marriage view" (aka "incest" view) are utterly orthodox conservatives with the best of intentions. However, I have seen these kinds of exegetical gymnastics used to "explain away" the Biblical force of Pauline dicta regarding homosexuality and women in leadership.
Back on point . . . I might quibble with you on how important 6/24 creation should be (yet still agree with you that it ought not be a boundary marker for orthodoxy any more than one's view of the millennium), but that was my only demurer regarding your OUTSTANDING book. As one rapidly moving from a Calvinistic Baptist position to a more Reformed point of view, I resonate with almost everything you say in RRC (at least as far as my reading has taken me).
You have done a great service by the publication of this book. Thanks!