Child Disciples and Baptism

[TaylorOtwell]

I came across this verse in John 6: "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." This verse teaches us that not all people who can properly be termed "disciples" are saved, since these disciples did not persevere with Christ.

From my experience, Baptists (and I speak as a Baptist) are working hard to determine if someone is saved before they baptize them, but I'm wondering if this is really the determining factor of who should be baptized. The Scriptures tell us to baptize disciples. And, as the verse above indicates, disciples are not always true believers. So, as soon as a child is learning about Christ, why are they not considered disciples by Baptists? I'm having Bible stories read to them by parents, and they are praying with their parents. Perhaps they are even singing. How is this not discipleship? And if it is considered discipleship, why are they not baptized as disciples?

 

[Herald]

Baptists are working hard to determine if someone is saved? Taylor, that may be in your experience, but it's not what I see in RB churches. There is nothing more required of a credible profession than it be credible. Has a person believed the Gospel message? Have they repented of their sins and trusted in Christ? Unless there is a visible contradiction to their profession we are to accept it and baptize them. Your statement rings true in describing many synergistic Baptist churches. RB churches should not be defined this way, both by belief and practice.

As far as these disciples turning away from Jesus; they fit the description of 1 John 2:19. They first had to profess before they left.

 

[TaylorOtwell]

Has a person believed the Gospel message? Have they repented of their sins and trusted in Christ?

Brother Bill, how is this not trying to determine if someone is saved? If someone believes the gospel and has repented of their sins, they are saved.

If a child is being taught by their parents about Christ, and is even being taught to pray to Christ and sing to Christ, are they undergoing discipleship?

 

[Herald]

Taylor,

You said:

From my experience, Baptists (and I speak as a Baptist) are working hard to determine if someone is saved...

Your words paint a picture of pastors and elders laboring under extreme duress to determine whether a person is saved. We're not required to do that. We are looking for a credible profession from professors, just as paedo pastors and elders are looking for the same from a convert. I never said we're not looking for evidence of salvation. A credible profession is just that.

As far as children go, I'm wondering whether you truly know the RB position. A child may be exposed to the Gospel from the church and his parents. If he's a disciple it's in the very loose sense of the word. 1 Cor. 2:14 tells me that the natural man (unsaved man) cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. Hard to get around that statement. The Gospel that is being taught to young children is salvific in nature. Once the child comes to faith in Christ, true discipleship can begin; but not until then. But this is nothing more than the garden variety Baptist vs. Presbyterian debate. There's nothing new here.

 

[rbcbob]

Caution is not unheard of in the New Testament.

Acts 9:26 And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple.

 

[TaylorOtwell]

Taylor,

You said:

From my experience, Baptists (and I speak as a Baptist) are working hard to determine if someone is saved...

Your words paint a picture of pastors and elders laboring under extreme duress to determine whether a person is saved. We're not required to do that. We are looking for a credible profession from professors, just as paedo pastors and elders are looking for the same from a convert. I never said we're not looking for evidence of salvation. A credible profession is just that.

As far as children go, I'm wondering whether you truly know the RB position. A child may be exposed to the Gospel from the church and his parents. If he's a disciple it's in the very loose sense of the word. 1 Cor. 2:14 tells me that the natural man (unsaved man) cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. Hard to get around that statement. The Gospel that is being taught to young children is salvific in nature. Once the child comes to faith in Christ, true discipleship can begin; but not until then. But this is nothing more than the garden variety Baptist vs. Presbyterian debate. There's nothing new here.

Bill,

Would you be more comfortable using the word "evangelism" for what is going on between a parent and child before they make a credible profession of faith?

So, regardless of a 3 year old's spiritual state, you would state that he probably doesn't have the cognitive ability to have saving faith in Christ? I'm assuming he doesn't believe his parents are deceiving him about Jesus. I understand these are garden variety Baptist/Presbyterian questions; however, I am not asking them with any other intention but to work through legitimate questions and struggles I have, as my wife is due to deliver our first child on April 17th.

---------- Post added at 12:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 PM ----------

Caution is not unheard of in the New Testament.

Acts 9:26 And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple.

Well, I can understand being afraid of someone who was murdering Christians. But, we're talking about a small child who is being taught about Christ by his parents.

 

[Ne Oublie]

I think these are valid questions, Taylor. One of the hardest things for me, while before as a baptist, was to know when I should baptize?. I found that everyone had different answers to this, and it seemed to be a mystery, but everyone was quick to say when you should not(babies). And my questions always fell flat. It always hinged on credible, as if there was any good in man to determine credible, let alone a child.
So, if a child were to be moral on the outside and say all the right things, then we should baptize him? And the time while being taught and shown the Gospel, they are not disciples in the real sense, because they have done nothing in and of themselves to determine that fact, or at least until the SAY they believe, which they are taught, then we can trust the fact? I was always told that it would take great discernment and prayer to know when to baptize your child and that it depended on the child and if they had shown the signs of a changed heart.

In some RB churches that I had been to, I would hear from children that they are not saved yet, and until they are, they will not be baptized. But you ask them how they know they are not saved and they would say, because they have not yet shown the fruit. Then in others there would be no fruit in the children at all, with minds completely on this world, but they would profess, and quickly be baptized. Others parents would teach their children about baptism, belief and and what repentance means, what the Gospel is, and really truly 'disciple' them, but only baptize them when they would come and ask to be baptized.(this I found most consistent), but that only depends on how old you are, because if you are 4 years old, your words are not credible.

And I was always told that being discipled comes before baptism. So, disciple does not equate to Christian or to one being saved, or that should be baptized, it was always that you make disciples and then baptize them when they profess. So, disciple seemed always like the preNotYetQualified-Christian, the evaluation period before you decide if you want to take the job or not.


Bill-

There is nothing more required of a credible profession than it be credible.

Define credible?

Has a person believed the Gospel message?

How would one determine if one truly believed?

Have they repented of their sins and trusted in Christ?

How would one determine who really repented and trusted Christ?

Wouldn't this take time? Is not sanctification what grows us in grace and where the fruit comes from?

Unless there is a visible contradiction to their profession we are to accept it and baptize them.

Any examples of a visible contradiction of profession as a child?

 

[rbcbob]

RE: Acts 9:26

Just because something happens in Scripture doesn't mean it's appropriate. Also, at this point, Paul was already baptized, so an allusion to this really does nothing for the argument of exercising undue caution before baptizing.

The point of the reference given was that there is a place for caution; reasonable caution, prudent caution; certainly not undue caution.

 

[rbcbob]

RE: Acts 9:26

Just because something happens in Scripture doesn't mean it's appropriate. Also, at this point, Paul was already baptized, so an allusion to this really does nothing for the argument of exercising undue caution before baptizing.

The point of the reference given was that there is a place for caution; reasonable caution, prudent caution; certainly not undue caution.

And all I'm saying is it's not alluding to prerequisite caution before baptizing.

Agreed.

 

[jwithnell]

So, as soon as a child is learning about Christ, why are they not considered disciples by Baptists?

Would you be more comfortable using the word "evangelism" for what is going on between a parent and child before they make a credible profession of faith?

So, regardless of a 3 year old's spiritual state, you would state that he probably doesn't have the cognitive ability to have saving faith in Christ?

Y'all are coming up against why it is so difficult to view children as outside of the covenant until they make a profession of faith. (Please hear me out; I'm not trying to turn this into a credo v. paedo discussion.) I am disciplining my babies, I am disciplining my 16-year old who has made a credible profession of faith, I am disciplining our oldest who is, with her husband, establishing a family. That responsibility is there, both for the family and the church, from the first moments of life until the end of life.

A pastor or a parent should be expecting different levels of understanding -- even if God has worked in the child's life at a very young age. I am far more delighted about my special-needs 6 year old who is excited to "learn about Jesus!" and "go to worship!" than I am about the adult who can say all the right things and maintain a hard heart. Where understanding is concern, we should be careful to delay admission to the Lord's table (or refuse admission) to someone who has not made or maintained a credible profession. That's a different matter than discipleship.

 

[Marrow Man]

Indeed, David trusted while nursing from his mother's knee.

 

[Herald]

Robert,

1689 LBC 29.2
Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance.

I'm not concerned about age. Neither is the Confession. As elders we are satisfied upon an interview of the new convert that gives evidence that the individual's profession is real. How do we know it's real? We don't. How does a Presbyterian pastor or elder know that a convert has a credible profession? They don't. We are called to accept their profession that they have placed their faith in Christ. If they prove to be a false convert, that is not the minister's fault. Scripture provides a remedy to deal with those who are professors and not possessors (Matt. 18). This whole issue is a straw man argument made against Baptists.

 

[Marrow Man]

Bill, what you have stated above is very clear misrepresentation of the Presbyterian position. As a Presbyterian minister, I can assure you that we have been given the ability to read men's hearts and know true and false converts. We also can spot regenerate children at 100 yards.

 

[Herald]

Bill,

Would you be more comfortable using the word "evangelism" for what is going on between a parent and child before they make a credible profession of faith?

So, regardless of a 3 year old's spiritual state, you would state that he probably doesn't have the cognitive ability to have saving faith in Christ? I'm assuming he doesn't believe his parents are deceiving him about Jesus. I understand these are garden variety Baptist/Presbyterian questions; however, I am not asking them with any other intention but to work through legitimate questions and struggles I have, as my wife is due to deliver our first child on April 17th.

Evangelism is certainly being performed as we proclaim the Gospel to our children. From the Baptist perspective, how could it not be?

As far as the scenario you provide about a 3 year old child, why are you being so narrow in your hypothetical? Did I say that a 3 year old doesn't have sufficient cognitive ability to believe? I'm not going to establish an artificial age boundary that must be achieved in order to believe the Gospel. A child should be exposed to the Gospel through church and family. As cognitive ability develops the child will increase in his ability to articulate his faith. Dispensing with the Finneysitic model, we should not be looking for a raised hand or sinners prayer to prove that a child has come to faith in Christ. There may never be a deciding moment that we can discern. The believing child may grow up with the understanding that they have always believed. I think that is a great thing, for it proves the saving power of the Gospel independent of emotionally based decisions. But Taylor, in order to be fair to both sides, the paedo parent has no guarantee that their baptized child is saved. Take away the paedo conviction that their child is a formal disciple and part of the temporal administration of the New Covenant; is there proof that their child is saved? Is anyone, child or adult, who is saved apart from faith? Wouldn't the paedo parent have the same motivation as the Baptist parent, to proclaim the Gospel to their child?

I understand the reasons for your questions. Please forgive me if I got my spine up. I get tired of the caricature that is painted about what Baptists believe in this area; especially when that caricature comes from other Baptists.

 

[Herald]

Bill, what you have stated above is very clear misrepresentation of the Presbyterian position. As a Presbyterian minister, I can assure you that we have been given the ability to read men's hearts and know true and false converts. We also can spot regenerate children at 100 yards.

I knew it! You guys have more grace than us poor Baptists. Is it okay if I eat the crumbs that fall off your table?

 

[TaylorOtwell]

Robert,

1689 LBC 29.2
Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance.

I'm not concerned about age. Neither is the Confession. As elders we are satisfied upon an interview of the new convert that gives evidence that the individual's profession is real. How do we know it's real? We don't. How does a Presbyterian pastor or elder know that a convert has a credible profession? They don't. We are called to accept their profession that they have placed their faith in Christ. If they prove to be a false convert, that is not the minister's fault. Scripture provides a remedy to deal with those who are professors and not possessors (Matt. 18). This whole issue is a straw man argument made against Baptists.

Bill,

Can you give some examples of questions you as an elder would ask to discern if the individual's profession is real? Are you talking about questions like, "Do you know yourself to be a sinner?", "How are your sins forgiven?", etc.

I guess I could be struggling with the more synergistic churches that seem to view everyone who "doesn't remember not believing in Jesus" as automatically lost. I want my child to always remember believing in Christ since his early childhood!

 

[Marrow Man]

Bill, what you have stated above is very clear misrepresentation of the Presbyterian position. As a Presbyterian minister, I can assure you that we have been given the ability to read men's hearts and know true and false converts. We also can spot regenerate children at 100 yards.

I knew it! You guys have more grace than us poor Baptists. Is it okay if I eat the crumbs that fall off your table?

Sorry, crumbs won't do you any good. You have to be bitten by a radioactive paedobaptist.

 

[rbcbob]

In one membership interview we asked the applicant what her understanding of the gospel and why she thought she was saved; she replied that she thought she was a pretty good person! We encouraged her to wait and listen carefully to the preaching for a time.

 

[Ne Oublie]

I guess my point is words like credible, evidence and the like. If we say that we accept a profession of faith and it is not ours to know if it is real,
then why use these words to try and qualify something we can only assume, as the profession is all that is needed?

if I were to ask a child, are you willing to be baptized and sit under the teaching of Christ and his church? Should he be baptized?

What words does a child have to say to express that he has faith in Christ?

Is faith required to be a disciple?

 

[Herald]

Robert,

1689 LBC 29.2
Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance.

I'm not concerned about age. Neither is the Confession. As elders we are satisfied upon an interview of the new convert that gives evidence that the individual's profession is real. How do we know it's real? We don't. How does a Presbyterian pastor or elder know that a convert has a credible profession? They don't. We are called to accept their profession that they have placed their faith in Christ. If they prove to be a false convert, that is not the minister's fault. Scripture provides a remedy to deal with those who are professors and not possessors (Matt. 18). This whole issue is a straw man argument made against Baptists.

Bill,

Can you give some examples of questions you as an elder would ask to discern if the individual's profession is real? Are you talking about questions like, "Do you know yourself to be a sinner?", "How are your sins forgiven?", etc.

I guess I could be struggling with the more synergistic churches that seem to view everyone who "doesn't remember not believing in Jesus" as automatically lost. I want my child to always remember believing in Christ since his early childhood!

Taylor, now that is a great question!

What I will not ask is, "Do you remember a time in your life when you placed your faith in Christ?" That is a nonsensical question. Even if the person answers, "Yes" it tells me nothing about what they believe; what they confess. I ask questions such as:

Do you understand that God is holy?
Do you believe that you have sinned against a holy God and are thereby guilty for breaking God's law?
Do you believe that the result of breaking God's law is an eternity spent apart from God in eternal torment?
Do you believe that God sent His Son, born of a woman, to live a sinless and obedient life unto God, suffered on the cross to take upon Himself the sin of the world, and that by repenting of your sin and placing your faith in Christ alone, that you have forgiveness of sin?
Are you willing to confess that you have repented of your sins, placed your faith in Christ alone, and are willing to submit to baptism as a sign of your obedience unto God?

These are some questions that I would ask of a new convert. I want to make sure that they can clearly articulate that they have believed in Christ alone. I'm not looking for a thesis, but a simple articulation of what they believe in regards to Christ and the Gospel. These questions are actually teaching moments with our children. Keach's catechism is a great way of exposing your child to the Gospel. You may never see that "Ding!" moment when your child says, "Daddy, I just asked Jesus into my heart." God may simply, but miraculously, replace their young heart of stone with a heart of flesh (Ezk. 36:26) and create a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17). The more synergistic Baptist churches push for that decision. It's almost as if they're saying that being born again isn't possible without knowing the date and time of a decision. That is a belief that all covenantal Baptists need to put out of their mind and never, ever practice with their children.

 

[Herald]

I guess my point is words like credible, evidence and the like. If we say that we accept a profession of faith and it is not ours to know if it is real,
then why use these words to try and qualify something we can only assume, as the profession is all that is needed?

if I were to ask a child, are you willing to be baptized and sit under the teaching of Christ and his church? Should he be baptized?

What words does a child have to say to express that he has faith in Christ?

Is faith required to be a disciple?

Robert, well, you're a Presbyterian and a paedobaptist, so no, you wouldn't believe that faith is required to be a disciple.

 

[Herald]

In one membership interview we asked the applicant what her understanding of the gospel and why she thought she was saved; she replied that she thought she was a pretty good person! We encouraged her to wait and listen carefully to the preaching for a time.

Mmm...what warrant do you have to ask such a question dear, brother?

 

[TaylorOtwell]

Baptist Brothers,

As I teach my child, and he asks about baptism, would it be appropriate to respond with "I still have things I would like to teach you first" if I feel he is not ready for the ordinance? I fear alienating my children from the faith by essentially making Christianity come across as something us adults do, but they as children really have no part in.

 

[Herald]

Taylor,

I understand your fear, but I don't think you need worry about it. When Bethany was small, and well before I was Reformed in doctrine, I explained to her that baptism is a sign for those that have placed their faith in Jesus Christ. I then told her (and continued to reinforce) what a Christian is based on scripture. She wanted to be baptized, but that was more because she saw it as something cool to do; but it was obvious that she did not understand the Gospel. Her answers to my questions proved that. As time went by I started to notice a character change within her. Her interest in the things of God became more her own interests and not that of her parents. When she was twelve she asked me again about baptism. This time there was no doubt in my mind that she not only understood the Gospel, but that she believed. A week later she was baptized. Each situation is different of course, but if you take the time to properly teach your children, I am confident you will not alienate them.

 

[Ne Oublie]

I guess my point is words like credible, evidence and the like. If we say that we accept a profession of faith and it is not ours to know if it is real,
then why use these words to try and qualify something we can only assume, as the profession is all that is needed?

if I were to ask a child, are you willing to be baptized and sit under the teaching of Christ and his church? Should he be baptized?

What words does a child have to say to express that he has faith in Christ?

Is faith required to be a disciple?

Robert, well, you're a Presbyterian and a paedobaptist, so no, you wouldn't believe that faith is required to be a disciple.

If my child grows up and upon looking at his life says to me, I do not remember not having faith in Christ, I have always believed Christ is my savior.
Do I then tell him that his faith was not real until he said it with his own words and it was confirmed through an interview process in which I accepted his faith
by how he articulated his answers.

 

[Herald]

I guess my point is words like credible, evidence and the like. If we say that we accept a profession of faith and it is not ours to know if it is real,
then why use these words to try and qualify something we can only assume, as the profession is all that is needed?

if I were to ask a child, are you willing to be baptized and sit under the teaching of Christ and his church? Should he be baptized?

What words does a child have to say to express that he has faith in Christ?

Is faith required to be a disciple?

Robert, well, you're a Presbyterian and a paedobaptist, so no, you wouldn't believe that faith is required to be a disciple.

If my child grows up and upon looking at his life says to me, I do not remember not having faith in Christ, I have always believed Christ is my savior.
Do I then tell him that his faith was not real until he said it with his own words and it was confirmed through an interview process in which I accepted his faith
by how he articulated his answers.

Robert, you're missing my point. Paedobaptists believe that their baptized infants become part of the visible church and members of the temporal administration of the New Covenant. The infant's faith as nothing to do with it. The child may or may not grow up to be a deeply committed Christian. It's also possible that the child may grow up to be a rank unbeliever, although I believe that is much less likely, since I believe that God does work through covenant families, just not in the same way that paedobaptists define the term. If your child grows up saying that they always remember having faith in Christ, and their life displays abundant evidence of that statement, than praise God! Why would you want to grill the child that you have raised to determine whether their profession was real? Surely you, as the parent, would be in a far better position to gauge the veracity of your grown child's profession.

 

[rbcbob]

In one membership interview we asked the applicant what her understanding of the gospel and why she thought she was saved; she replied that she thought she was a pretty good person! We encouraged her to wait and listen carefully to the preaching for a time.

Mmm...what warrant do you have to ask such a question dear, brother?

An intractable view of regenerate church membership?

 

[Jeremy McKeen]

Make disciples ... baptizing them.

My wife is also expecting .... and I look to Jesus' command to go and "make disciples ... baptizing them." Who? Those who you are making disciples. Can someone make a convert? All would agree that the answer is no. Only God. But we can disciple. We can teach. We can teach what Jesus has taught us to those in our care. We can answer the charge to "bring our children up in the discipline of the Lord." Eph.6:4.

So, it seems curious to me why so many parents follow the first part of Jesus' command, "to make disciples" of their children, but not the second, to baptize their child who is being discipled. I may be missing something here, but Taylor is hitting on an important point that is central to discipleship and the sign given to those being discipled ... that is, baptism.

Good thread, T.

 

[JoyFullMom]

Hi Taylor,

Your OP addresses what we faced in our SGB church. Two of our children made professions of faith and when we left nearly two years later, they still had not been baptized. It raised many questions, both for us and our children. The delay was all centered around a concern that the children were too young (about 7 and 9) to understand, so they wanted to watch and *be sure*. It was not a good thing at the time, but both children learned ALOT about the difference between *proving to man* and just *walking in obedience* and *working out your salvation*.

I will admit that was one catalyst to cause us to revisit covenant theology and baptism and to return to the Presbyterian church.

 

[jwithnell]

Paedobaptists believe that their baptized infants become part of the visible church and members of the temporal administration of the New Covenant.

Perhaps a little clarification is needed here. We baptize our babies because they are part of the church by virtue of their birth. Someone who is not part of the church has no right to participate in the the sacraments of the church.