Charles Swindoll

[New wine skin]

Originally posted by OS_X
Actually, Covenant Theology isn't a 'key' in grasping Calvinism.... I only have begun to fully accept Covenant Theology this year ( 2 months actually ).... I've been a fully convinced 5-pointer since December of 2000. You still have a buncha folks who are either 'modified' dispensationalists (like MacArthur) who are fully Calvinistic or some Progressive Dispensational folks (like I used to be) who are fully Calvinistic as well.

Sorry brother, have to disagree with you on this. Just because you didn´t understand covenant theology back then doesn´t mean its not a key to understanding Calvinism. You need a better argument than that. Covenant theology is key element to "understanding" soteriology within Calvinism. It acts as bridge between anthropology and soteriology. Covenant theology provides unity of dispensations and unites NT and OT by means of redemptive history. 5 pts Calvinism with any Dispensationalism is a theological aberrant of soteriology and is not reformed Calvinism. Covenant theology is also important in that it helps maintain a correct understanding of justification. Too often we run into the issue of antinomianism and the Lordship controversy if there is a lack of or misunderstanding of the covenant framework. Without a covenant framework faith has a tendency shift from being the means to salvation to being made the ground of salvation (sinners prayer sotierology). Covenant theology is so interrelated I don´t know how a Calvinist could deny it or say its not essential to understanding the components of Calvinism. I want to be sensitive not the peg calvinism as "exclusively" a 5 points "system" (as I am sure you would also). That would be reductionism and it does a dishonor to the theological system. Calvinism is an orthodox theological and biblical dynamic system for understanding and coming into proper context and relation with the Holy God of scripture. This includes the doctrine of covenant theology.

I am not saying you were not a 5 pt Calvinist, but I would say you lacked a full appreciation of calvinism in an efficacious sense back then and maybe still do because your so new to the doctrine, which is ok (we have to start somewhere). I don´t want you to think I am down talking you because we are all in a discovery phase of revelation together and at different places. Maybe you reject it because the term in the sense we use it was not adequately worked out until the seventeenth century??? (I get this all the time from people who are dispensationalist) To which I would reply just because Calvin himself didn´t have a working definition of "covenant theology" as we do today doesn´t mean he didn´t grasp the concept and it didn´t exist prior in the minds of men. Would you say that because Anselm was the first to write a treatise on Substitutionary atonement, the doctrine didn´t exist until the 11 century?? Of course not. Moving on, let me also qualify my position by saying you don´t need to recognize all 5 points of calvinism to be saved. The point I am making is that covenant theology is a critical element of Calvinism even if it is not recognized.

Please be intellectually honest in your response and if you still disagree and have time to respond please be more specific in why you disagree with me. Look forward to more discussion.

blessings

 

[SolaScriptura]

Originally posted by OS_X
That's incorrect. The majority of Free Churches are Calvinistic ( roughly 60% Calvinist, 40% Arminian). The bulk of folks at our Seminary (Trinity) are Calvinistic. The denom has been gradually becoming more Calvinistic over the past few years thanks to folks like D.A. Carson, Greg Strand (who I've met - very nice guy!) and Willem VanGeremen (hope I spelled his name right).

Now of that 60% Calvinistic bunch, about 30% are paedobaptist and 70% are credobaptist. My pastor's part of that 30% paedo crowd.

Are you a student at TEDS? Get to know Grant Osborne... (for those who don't know of him, he's TEDS' token Arminian/egalitarian)... I know his daughter and son-in-law... he is a remarkably gracious guy who loves Jesus very much. Spend time getting to know him.
My "native" denomination is EFCA... I find your percentages to be a little unscientific (to say the least). I agree that in recent years TEDS has put out primarily Calvinistic graduates, but I don't think that it is yet fair to say that most EFCA churches are calvinistic (as your stats imply). I think it would help the EFCA to drop that silly bit in their statement of faith which enshrines premillenialism and makes word-splitters out of all the post-trib folks in the denomination. I know of many guys who would fit in well with the EFCA minus premillenialism.