Celebration of Easter and Christmas?

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Christmas = time to get together w/friends & family, eat ham/turkey... in general, like Thanksgiving.

Easter = time to stock up on candy & chocolates the day after.

You can get $1.00 huge chocolate bunnies at Target the day after Ishtar. Great Stuff!!!

 

[Herald]

What about a Christmas tree in the home?

Unless we are elevating the observance of these days, and their practices, to the level of church discipline, there is a limit on what we can require of individual members. I may decide not to have a Christmas tree in my home, and I may teach that is a form of idolatry; but what is the scope of my authority with the saints? Do I have pastoral authority to order them? This does not preclude teaching against the observance of these days; it limits what a pastor or elder can require of his members.

 

[ww]

Why that day? Why not do that on any other Sunday? I don't see it as inherently wrong of course because those themes are not only commendable but encouraged however most churches who do so go further with Easter egg hunts, etc.

Why that day??? Because it makes the most sense. It's Easter. There's no requirement to do something special on that day, but I don't understand why you wouldn't. It's a holiday to place a special emphasis on the resurrection of Christ--I don't see why that is so bothering to people.

As to the egg hunts, I'm afraid I don't have a response. I've never seen anything like that done in my church or any other church. I'm not denying it happens, but it really has nothing to do with me since I'm not involved in it. I know of families in our church that do parties at their homes so that kids can "hunt eggs" but it's not tied to the church itself.

You say "It's Easter" but "Easter" is not commanded in Scripture for the Worship of the Church. I am probably more open to the theme of the Resurrection in Preaching, Hymns, etc, not as many issues there since that is the prerogative of the Pastor and not in violation of the RPW but I just don't see where the Church is to sanction Easter or Christmas for that matter during the Stated services of the Church. Does that mean folks can't get together outside of those times to enjoy the Holiday not at all. As far as Easter Egg Hunts, yes, been there done that, PCA church so maybe I'm jaded.

For the record I celebrate Christmas and when we have children more than likely Easter, grew up celebrating it so I'm only arguing based on the RPW, if you advocate the RPW then where do you see Scripture commanding Easter or Christmas in Worship? Unless you advocate the Lutheran view if it is not forbidden it's ok?

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Reformed and Presbyterian rejection of holy days is on a number of levels, which one can see in A Dispute Against the English Popish Ceremonies by Scottish Commissioner to the Westminster Assembly, George Gillespie. Pagan origin I don't think is an argument used against Easter; which came into the church by a certain private custom, for which Gillespie cites Socrates. Rather Gillespie focuses on the nature of superstiion, will worship and symbolizing with idolaters as well as what we now call the regulative principle of worship.
For various arguments see extracts from Gillespie about holy days here:
George Gillespie | Naphtali Press
For an overview of how holy days came into Presbyterianism see:
The Religious Observance of Christmas and ‘Holy Days’ in American Presbyterianism
Chris Coldwell | Naphtali Press

 

[Herald]

All of brother Matt's Wild Boar programs are great and worth the time to listen to in my opinion.

James, does your new church have a formal position on Christmas?

 

[ww]

Reformed and Presbyterian rejection of holy days is on a number of levels, which one can see in A Dispute Against the English Popish Ceremonies by Scottish Commissioner to the Westminster Assembly, George Gillespie. Pagan origin I don't think is an argument used against Easter; which came into the church by a certain private custom, for which Gillespie cites Socrates. Rather Gillespie focuses on the nature of superstiion, will worship and symbolizing with idolaters as well as what we now call the regulative principle of worship.
For various arguments see extracts from Gillespie about holy days here:
George Gillespie | Naphtali Press
For an overview of how holy days came into Presbyterianism see:
The Religious Observance of Christmas and ‘Holy Days’ in American Presbyterianism
Chris Coldwell | Naphtali Press

Thanks Chris, being lazy here by asking this question before reading but were there any Puritans or Westminster Divines or even Calvin for that matter who believed that it was in violation of the RPW but permissible to celebrate in homes or at other times in the Church outside of the Stated Services of the Church?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

All of brother Matt's Wild Boar programs are great and worth the time to listen to in my opinion.

James, does your new church have a formal position on Christmas?

The ARP does not have an "official" position on "Holy Days". Though the denominational calendar does "recognize" Easter and Christmas.

 

[Tripel]

...so I'm only arguing based on the RPW, if you advocate the RPW then where do you see Scripture commanding Easter or Christmas in Worship?

I like to think I advocate the RPW, but a lot of people have differing interpretations of that. Scripture does not command us to use a bulletin, a microphone, or an organ, but I think they are all within the guidelines of the RPW. My reasoning for that is that those things are not elements of worship, but just tools for engaging in the worship elements that are commanded.

I guess what I'd like to know from you is how you see Easter being a part of worship that you object to. Like I said, our church celebrates Easter, but "Easter" is not an element of worship in our church. We acknowledge that it is Easter Sunday, and we acknowledge that it is Good Friday at our Good Friday service, but we don't do any "Eastery" things in our service besides focusing on the resurrection.

 

[Herald]

All of brother Matt's Wild Boar programs are great and worth the time to listen to in my opinion.

James, does your new church have a formal position on Christmas?

The ARP does not have an "official" position on "Holy Days". Though the denominational calendar does "recognize" Easter and Christmas.

Ben, so it comes down to the personal conviction of each member?

 

[NaphtaliPress]

I'm not sure this comes up in exactly the manner we deal with it today. My paper deals with the bifurcation of religious and non religious observance at least later as it developed in this country in Presbyterianism.

Reformed and Presbyterian rejection of holy days is on a number of levels, which one can see in A Dispute Against the English Popish Ceremonies by Scottish Commissioner to the Westminster Assembly, George Gillespie. Pagan origin I don't think is an argument used against Easter; which came into the church by a certain private custom, for which Gillespie cites Socrates. Rather Gillespie focuses on the nature of superstiion, will worship and symbolizing with idolaters as well as what we now call the regulative principle of worship.
For various arguments see extracts from Gillespie about holy days here:
George Gillespie | Naphtali Press
For an overview of how holy days came into Presbyterianism see:
The Religious Observance of Christmas and ‘Holy Days’ in American Presbyterianism
Chris Coldwell | Naphtali Press

Thanks Chris, being lazy here by asking this question before reading but were there any Puritans or Westminster Divines or even Calvin for that matter who believed that it was in violation of the RPW but permissible to celebrate in homes or at other times in the Church outside of the Stated Services of the Church?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

James, does your new church have a formal position on Christmas?

The ARP does not have an "official" position on "Holy Days". Though the denominational calendar does "recognize" Easter and Christmas.

Ben, so it comes down to the personal conviction of each member?

...and Congregation. I am unaware of any Presbytery position.

 

[Herald]

The ARP does not have an "official" position on "Holy Days". Though the denominational calendar does "recognize" Easter and Christmas.

Ben, so it comes down to the personal conviction of each member?

...and Congregation. I am unaware of any Presbytery position.

Interesting. Do you know of entire congregations that have a position on Easter and Christmas? If they do, are they willing to pursue church discipline against members who balk? I'm not being factious here, I genuinely want to know. How far can a pastor and elders "push" these issues re: formal authority?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

That is a question above my pay-grade. I'll let Marrow Man answer that question.

 

[DonP]

...so I'm only arguing based on the RPW, if you advocate the RPW then where do you see Scripture commanding Easter or Christmas in Worship?

I like to think I advocate the RPW, but a lot of people have differing interpretations of that. Scripture does not command us to use a bulletin, a microphone, or an organ, but I think they are all within the guidelines of the RPW. My reasoning for that is that those things are not elements of worship, but just tools for engaging in the worship elements that are commanded.

I guess what I'd like to know from you is how you see Easter being a part of worship that you object to. Like I said, our church celebrates Easter, but "Easter" is not an element of worship in our church. We acknowledge that it is Easter Sunday, and we acknowledge that it is Good Friday at our Good Friday service, but we don't do any "Eastery" things in our service besides focusing on the resurrection.

Are you comparing the acknowledgment of a holy day and having it direct the subject or the preaching and worship singing to a microphone or bulletin??

I wont get into the organ here as there are many threads and articles all over on instruments in worship

 

[Tripel]

Are you comparing the acknowledgment of a holy day and having it direct the subject or the preaching and worship singing to a microphone or bulletin??

Not exactly. First of all, I don't consider Easter a "holy day", nor does my church. Second, I mentioned bulletin and other things just to say that I want us to be careful when using "commanded by Scripture" because that applies more to worship elements and not to everything that makes an appearance in a worship service (at least, that's my opinion).

I wont get into the organ here as there are many threads and articles all over on instruments in worship

I know, I know. I only mentioned that as an example of differing interpretations of not only Scripture, but also the RPW.

 

[ww]

...so I'm only arguing based on the RPW, if you advocate the RPW then where do you see Scripture commanding Easter or Christmas in Worship?

I like to think I advocate the RPW, but a lot of people have differing interpretations of that. Scripture does not command us to use a bulletin, a microphone, or an organ, but I think they are all within the guidelines of the RPW. My reasoning for that is that those things are not elements of worship, but just tools for engaging in the worship elements that are commanded.

I guess what I'd like to know from you is how you see Easter being a part of worship that you object to. Like I said, our church celebrates Easter, but "Easter" is not an element of worship in our church. We acknowledge that it is Easter Sunday, and we acknowledge that it is Good Friday at our Good Friday service, but we don't do any "Eastery" things in our service besides focusing on the resurrection.

Daniel,

Those things mentioned are circumstances of Worship I would agree. By your church's acknowledgement of any other day than the Lord's Day based on the definition of the RPW found in WCF 20:1 the case could be made it is out of accord with it. However as you stated there are different variations of the RPW these days and as a result it causes confusion among folks even in the same denomination who move or want to worship in another Church of the same denomination. But that's another topic. In any event after reading your bio that would be non-issue for you.

Even if we were to say that the Celebration of Easter in your church is confessional based on WCF 20:5 where religious oaths, vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions are permissible these were to be spontaneous in response to the spiritual needs of the Church and are not included as ordinary elements of worship.

In conclusion we will more than likely not be persuaded of each other's position based on the how we approach the RPW but I've enjoyed the dialogue.

 

[Scott1]

This is a topic that has been thoroughly debated on Puritan Board as recently as last holiday season.http://www.puritanboard.com/f103/not-celebrating-christmas-41057/

You may find a search of topics (upper right) helpful in evaluating this.

Particularly, Virginia Huguenot who was Puritan Board librarian references the article you site and interacts with that. You may find helpful carefully reading his thoughts and the board member interactions on the thread referenced above.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Right; but we cannot if original intent means anything. The thanksgiving days noted in WCF 20 have a very clearly defined scope, for which see the Westminster Directory for Worship; I cover this in the article noted already above.

Even if we were to say that the Celebration of Easter in your church is confessional based on WCF 20:5 where religious oaths, vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions are permissible these were to be spontaneous in response to the spiritual needs of the Church and are not included as ordinary elements of worship.

 

[DonP]

Daniel,

Those things mentioned are circumstances of Worship I would agree. By your church's acknowledgement of any other day than the Lord's Day based on the definition of the RPW found in WCF 20:1 the case could be made it is out of accord with it. However as you stated there are different variations of the RPW these days and as a result it causes confusion among folks even in the same denomination who move or want to worship in another Church of the same denomination. But that's another topic. In any event after reading your bio that would be non-issue for you.

Even if we were to say that the Celebration of Easter in your church is confessional based on WCF 20:5 where religious oaths, vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions are permissible these were to be spontaneous in response to the spiritual needs of the Church and are not included as ordinary elements of worship.

.

I disagree with the 1st paragraph. Like the 2nd

I would say there are not differing views of the RP. The RP is clear there are those who disagree with it and the church has failed to discipline them and tolerates them. This creates confusion

 

[Gesetveemet]

What is a Christian response to Christmas and Easter?

THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION
CHAPTER XXIV
Of Holy Days,
Fasts and the Choice of Foods​

THE FESTIVALS OF Christ AND THE SAINTS. Moreover, if in Christian liberty the churches religiously celebrate the memory of the Lord's nativity, circumcision, passion, resurrection, and of his ascension into heaven, and the sending of the Holy Spirit upon his disciples, we approve of it highly. but we do not approve of feasts instituted for men and for saints. Holy days have to do with the first Table of the Law and belong to God alone. Finally, holy days which have been instituted for the saints and which we have abolished, have much that is absurd and useless, and are not to be tolerated. In the meantime, we confess that the remembrance of saints, at a suitable time and place, is to be profitably commended to the people in sermons, and the holy examples of the saints set forth to be imitated by all.

 

[DonP]

That's why we like the Heidelberg and Belgic Confessions Better

 

[Honor]

what I don't understand is... why are are you arguing about Christmas and Easter when The Bible is silent about those (which I for the record am all for celebrating) but you don't get all up in arms (tons of threads about)about the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is COMMANDED to be celebrated (in much detail as how to celebrate it properly).

Ex.12:14 “This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast. 15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. 16 On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you. 17 And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever.

 

[DonP]

what I don't understand is... why are are you arguing about Christmas and Easter when The Bible is silent about those (which I for the record am all for celebrating) but you don't get all up in arms (tons of threads about)about the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is COMMANDED to be celebrated (in much detail as how to celebrate it properly).

Good point. I think it is because they recognize that all the OT holy days were tossed out since the reality has come. But they didn't think about the fact had christmas and easter been in the OT they would have been tossed out too.

So they feel free to celebrate them. And if they can do them at home, then gradually the church which seems to follow the world more than the scriptures, just brought the custom in as members said we want a tree in our church, we want to decorate, we want to get Christ back in christmas, we want, we want. And the ministers gave in.

And in some Arminian churches the pastors have even let the OT feast days and sabbaths back in.
Sad.

You do understand forever meant throughout your generations as the nation of Israel God was working in until He was done with Israel and disbanded it and exiled them?

 

[Honor]

You do understand forever meant throughout your generations as the nation of Israel God was working in until He was done with Israel and disbanded it and exiled them?

the Hebrew lexicon says: long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

a) ancient time, long time (of past)

b) (of future)

1) for ever, always

2) continuous existence, perpetual

3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity


so that's what I believe forever to mean

 

[DonP]

You do understand forever meant throughout your generations as the nation of Israel God was working in until He was done with Israel and disbanded it and exiled them?

the Hebrew lexicon says: long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

a) ancient time, long time (of past)

b) (of future)

1) for ever, always

2) continuous existence, perpetual

3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity


so that's what I believe forever to mean

So what?

The dictionary definition is not how we interpret scripture.

There is context also. Comparing scripture with scripture. etc.

The dictionary definition is not always how a word is used

And in this case, I think it meant long duration as the Lex says, and like the other qualifier in the sentence. Throughout their generations.

 

[Honor]

The dictionary definition is not always how a word is used

so if there is a word that I don't know in Scripture I can't look it up in the hebrew or greek lexicon to see what the word really means??? How then am I to know that your definition of the word is to be correct?
I'm sorry but when I read the Bible I believe that EVERY WORD is true

 

[DonP]

The dictionary definition is not always how a word is used

so if there is a word that I don't know in Scripture I can't look it up in the hebrew or greek lexicon to see what the word really means??? How then am I to know that your definition of the word is to be correct?
I'm sorry but when I read the Bible I believe that EVERY WORD is true

Every word is true. It is as the lex said. a. Long time. What is your problem?

What you mean is you want it to mean what you want it to mean and which one of the definitions you want to pick.

And no you don't have to believe I am right. This is why we study and search the scriptures and consult with a variety of people and pray to the Spirit to guide us into truth and convict us when we need to change.

Every word is true but it does not necessarily mean you can read a dictionary and interpret properly. No. Else we would not need ministers of the word who are professionally trained, gifted and ordained to teach us. We could buy a dictionary and be done.

The preacher is not just to remind us of the words so we can look them up. He is, or should be a gifted, educated, called and ordained minister of the word. To keep us away from mistakes like this

 

[NaphtaliPress]

The OT holy days are dead and buried being part of the ceremonial law; "our" holy days don't even have the aspect of having been once ordained by God! This is what one of the authors of the Westminster Confession of Faith had to say about this (about 22 years old when he wrote it).

Two other reasons the Apostle gives in this place against festival days; one (v. 17), What should we do with the shadow, when we have the body? Another (v. 20), Why should we be subject to human ordinances, since through Christ we are dead to them, and have nothing ado with them? Now, by the same reasons are all holidays to be condemned, as taking away Christian liberty; and so, that which the Apostle says does militate as well against them as against any other holidays. For whereas it might be thought that the Apostle does not condemn all holidays, because both he permits others to observe days (Rom. 14:5), and he himself also did observe one of the Jewish feasts (Acts 18:21), it is easily answered, that our holidays have no warrant from these places, except our opposites will say that they esteem their festival days holier than other days, and that they observe the Jewish festivities, neither of which they do acknowledge; and if they did, yet they must consider, that that which the Apostle either said or did here[about], is to be expounded and understood of bearing with the weak Jews, whom he permitted to esteem one day above another, and for whose cause he did, in his own practice, thus far apply himself to their infirmity at that time when they could not possibly be as yet fully and thoroughly instructed concerning Christian liberty, and the abrogation of the ceremonial law, because the gospel was as yet not fully propagated; and when the Mosaical rites were like a dead man not yet buried, as Augustine’s simile runs. So that all this can make nothing for holidays after the full promulgation of the gospel, and after that the Jewish ceremonies are not only dead, but also buried, and so deadly to be used by us. Hence it is, that the Apostle will not bear with the observation of days in Christian churches who have known God, as he speaks.
Part 2: Holy Days take away our Christian Liberty Proved Out of the Gospel (EPC 1.8, 37-45) | Naphtali Press

​

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I really wish the American churches would have adopted the Westminster Directory for Worship.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Not to rub salt in a wound, but the ARP held to it as late as the early 1970s when they tossed it.

I really wish the American churches would have adopted the Westminster Directory for Worship.