Can you believe this and be a Christian?

[C. Matthew McMahon]

What do you think -

A man says, "mythology" is God's way of speaking to those he has not given the Gospel to. Pagans, Buddhists, etc, if they sincerely pray to "god" (whoever that may be for them) will be heard by God and He will hear them and accept them. When they have dreams, visions, or come up with mythological stories about a divine person, then God accepts that and accepts them.

If someone were to believe something like this, would you say he/she was a Christian or not?

I read an article recently that documents citations about a well known person who said some of these things. I will quote and cite them after. But what would your initial reaction be to this kind of thinking?

[Edited on 2-26-2004 by webmaster]

 

[BobVigneault]

That sounds like a variation of "the noble savage" argument. I would say based on the progression of God's wrath described in Romans 1, that mythology, (or the suppression of truth) is a merciful pacifier for those who are parishing. If mercy is a relief of misery, then myth gives the lost something to keep them busy on their blind journey to judgment.

These are just my idlings, I haven't done a major study. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.":tumble:

[Edited on 2-26-2004 by maxdetail]

 

[A_Wild_Boar]

Does this person actually teach this? Would the term antichrist be appropriate?

[Edited on 2-26-2004 by A_Wild_Boar]

 

[Guest]

Christians often believe in some very inconsistent ideas and horrifying doctrines. The essence of the gospel and spiritual regeneration is the only touchstone in my opinion.

 

[pastorway]

I know who it is.........

and boy won't people be surprised to hear that he believes this?

It is another gospel!

:shocked2::sad:

 

[dswatts]

I agree with Pastor Way....a different gospel.

Would love to know who this is!!

Grace,
Dwayne

 

[raderag]

[quote:1808917e7c][i:1808917e7c]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:1808917e7c]
What do you think -

A man says, "mythology" is God's way of speaking to those he has not given the Gospel to. Pagans, Buddhists, etc, if they sincerely pray to "god" (whoever that may be for them) will be heard by God and He will hear them and accept them. When they have dreams, visions, or come up with mythological stories about a divine person, then God accepts that and accepts them.

If someone were to believe something like this, would you say he/she was a Christian or not?

I read an article recently that documents citations about a well known person who said some of these things. I will quote and cite them after. But what would your initial reaction be to this kind of thinking?

[Edited on 2-26-2004 by webmaster] [/quote:1808917e7c]

Yes it is wrong.

Who said it?

 

[brymaes]

If a person believes that, he is denying the Gospel. Certainly the [i:e143deaaa0]minimum[/i:e143deaaa0] requirements of belief for salvation includes the exclusivity of salvation through Christ alone! The one who propagates such heresy is certainly not saved.

BTW, I also think I know who it is...:flaming:

 

[Bladestunner316]

No

But I do believe that those who come up with these are just trying to explain the things of God through a sin filled heart.

emphasis "trying" but failing since only God can enlighten them.

blade

 

[BrianLanier]

This sounds like something that Walter Martin has said in one of his apologetics tapes that I listened to years ago. I think that it depends on who said it...i.e. a new christian or a teacher if we are to consider them to be Christian or not. Ultimately, I am not sure what to think.

Also sounds like something I have see documented about Billy Graham...can't remember though.

[Edited on 2-26-2004 by BrianLanier]

 

[smhbbag]

^my vote goes to billy as well, guess we'll see :flaming:

 

[Me Died Blue]

I know who it is also. The view is generally called Inclusivism, and of course is easily refuted by Romans 10:12-15 (ESV): "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!'" I had read the article by the well-known person who said these things awhile ago, and I couldn't have been more shocked to hear that he believed it. But I'll refrain from saying it, since I'm assuming Matt wants several people to be able to give their thoughts on the topic before the beans get spilled...

Personally, I think that although it seriously twists the Gospel in a horrific way, people can believe it and still be real Christians as long as they trust in Christ alone for their own salvation. After all, semi-Arminians can still be true Christians as well.

Chris

 

[A_Wild_Boar]

[quote:d432e2b460][i:d432e2b460]Originally posted by smhbbag[/i:d432e2b460]
^my vote goes to billy as well, guess we'll see :flaming: [/quote:d432e2b460]

Same here. Billy Graham did make a similar remark in the past.

 

[A_Wild_Boar]

[quote:a6bec25b47][i:a6bec25b47]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:a6bec25b47]
Personally, I think that although it seriously twists the Gospel in a horrific way, people can believe it and still be real Christians as long as they trust in Christ alone for their own salvation. After all, semi-Arminians can still be true Christians as well.

Chris [/quote:a6bec25b47]

Being a weak Christian without much study is one thing, but a pastor or sheperd of any flock that teaches this is no Christian, they are certainly a wolf.

 

[Scott Bushey]

I think it's Mel Gibson.........

 

[Me Died Blue]

[quote:853db3a86b][i:853db3a86b]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:853db3a86b]
I think it's Mel Gibson......... [/quote:853db3a86b]

 

[Me Died Blue]

[quote:b305a9a1f5][i:b305a9a1f5]Originally posted by A_Wild_Boar[/i:b305a9a1f5]
[quote:b305a9a1f5][i:b305a9a1f5]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:b305a9a1f5]
Personally, I think that although it seriously twists the Gospel in a horrific way, people can believe it and still be real Christians as long as they trust in Christ alone for their own salvation. After all, semi-Arminians can still be true Christians as well.

Chris [/quote:b305a9a1f5]

Being a weak Christian without much study is one thing, but a pastor or sheperd of any flock that teaches this is no Christian, they are certainly a wolf. [/quote:b305a9a1f5]

Are one's responsibilities greatly increased by being a pastor or shepherd? You bet. Is it thus a grave sin to preach that to one's pupils? Absolutely. But as Paul Manata pointed out, salvation is solely dependent upon one's [i:b305a9a1f5]own[/i:b305a9a1f5] personal acceptance of the Cross for themself. [i:b305a9a1f5]Sola fide.[/i:b305a9a1f5]

Chris

P. S. Especially considering who it is, I definitely have to believe that the person being referenced is a Christian himself, despite lapsing into this error.

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:3f8ee098f1][i:3f8ee098f1]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:3f8ee098f1]
What do you think -

A man says, "mythology" is God's way of speaking to those he has not given the Gospel to. Pagans, Buddhists, etc, if they sincerely pray to "god" (whoever that may be for them) will be heard by God and He will hear them and accept them. When they have dreams, visions, or come up with mythological stories about a divine person, then God accepts that and accepts them.

If someone were to believe something like this, would you say he/she was a Christian or not?

I read an article recently that documents citations about a well known person who said some of these things. I will quote and cite them after. But what would your initial reaction be to this kind of thinking?

[Edited on 2-26-2004 by webmaster] [/quote:3f8ee098f1]

This is an issue of the doctrine of Scripture. Therefore it is fundamental, even more fundamental than the Trinity, since the Trinity is discerned from the Scriptures. If we say, along with WCF 1 (and every other Protestant confession, including Lutheranism) that the Scriptures and special revelation are necessary to reveal the Redeemer, then we have to say that this doctrine is false, promotes a gospel that is not a gospel at all.

However, having said that, if the person who made the quote actually trusts in the finished work of Christ by grace alone through faith alone, then this person could be a Christian. He is just in error regarding Scripture, and will have to account for his false doctrine to God (a very fearful thing here).

 

[KayJay]

would not put it past billy graham....

THE SUSPENSE IS KILLING MEEEE!!!!uzzled:

 

[Bladestunner316]

Hi Kay Jay

 

[KayJay]

Hey Blade! :bigsmile:

 

[turmeric]

I mentioned this on another thread and got no response - tell me if you think the notion is heretical. I have heard and read of something called "redemptive correlatives" in mythology. The idea seems to be that there are elements to the myth that parallell (in a very distorted way) the Gospel story; when a missionary discovers these he can use them as a beginning much as Paul used the altar to the unknown god in Athens. Many peoples have, in addition to their pantheon, a "high god" who lives in the sky whom they don't know much about. They usually think he went away, or they say they have forgotten what they used to know about him. They probably suppressed it!

 

[Scott Bushey]

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Bladestunner316]

:spin:

 

[KayJay]

Hey Meg,

I think I've heard of the "redemptive correlatives" too...I think...maybe not tell me if I'm wrong!

I thought that was something different though than this discussion...the idea of "redemptive correlatives" remind me of how Paul uses language of the "mystery religions" in 1 Corinthians. Of course the mystery religions had no power to save - there were just ideas/language he could use. (HOWEVER - I DON'T think that means Paul was SEEKER-SENSITIVE )

If I believe in "redemptive correlatives" it doesn't necessarily mean that I believe people can be saved by the "pictures" of Christ's atonement. That's like saying someone could be saved by reading/watching "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe" without ever hearing the Gospel.

Do you agree that there is a distinction between a) believing there are redemptive correlatives that perhaps God uses when His elect bring His Gospel to a people - and b) believing that a people who trust in the abstract correlative are saved?

hope that made sense...

 

[Craig]

It is possible to be a Christian and believe this theory...is it a true teaching? I find it hard to believe


However...in college, one of the students in my dorm was from Africa...when I say Africa, I'm talking about "primitive" tribe type stuff. His people were evangelized and knew of the gospel because of a Presbyterian bringing them the gospel...but one of their former practices made me wonder if this "inclusivist" position may be plausible.

The tribe would lay their hands on a goat and drive it out of their area. They laid on it all their sins, and drove it out so as to remove their guilt...was this a remnant teaching from the Old Testament? These people may not have even been able to hear that their Messiah had come until 100 years ago, but at least one of their practices pointed to a substitution to take their place.

I don't know of their other practices, and I'm not saying these people were of the faith of Abraham, but it made me think...just like those in the Old Covenant, their faith was in One to come...they just didn't realize Him yet. Remember, those in the old covenant more than likely weren't able to describe God in Trinitarian terms, nor discuss the hypostatic union, etc. But their faith was placed in the revelation given to them by God.

 

[twogunfighter]

[quote:6508deb7d1]
However, having said that, if the person who made the quote actually trusts in the finished work of Christ by grace alone through faith alone, then this person could be a Christian. He is just in error regarding Scripture, and will have to account for his false doctrine to God (a very fearful thing here).
[/quote:6508deb7d1]

Fred, as usual, puts one in the bullseye.

 

[love2read]

Well webmaster,

You made me quite curious now.... Can you tell us who it is?!

:bigsmile:

 

[JonathonHunt]

Its a crazy theory really isn't it? To think that Almighty God would use crazy myths and fables about debauched 'deity' and absurd legends to save people?

It is an attack on the authority and sufficiency of scripture!

 

[dswatts]

waiting patiently for Webmaster to spill the beans! uzzled:

Grace,
Dwayne