TheDeepFryer
Puritan Board Freshman
It's honestly so hard to find a fair representation of what proponents of federal vision theology believe.
Can someone please give me a brief summary?
Can someone please give me a brief summary?
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Welcome DF to the PB. Please fix your signature so folks will know how to address you. The instructions and minimum required are under useful links at the bottom of the page.It's honestly so hard to find a fair representation of what proponents of federal vision theology believe.
Can someone please give me a brief summary?
It's honestly so hard to find a fair representation of what proponents of federal vision theology believe.
Can someone please give me a brief summary?
vision
I've seen a lot of criticism of the naparc reports so I'm doubtful of whether they give a fair representation.
I have seen criticism of all of them, even from reputable, non-FV sources. To be clear though, I have not read either the reports or the federal visionists, so this is an expression of skepticism rather than criticism. Some of the criticism is not public, so I probably shouldn't name names.All of them? Criticism from whom? Lane has been around through a lot of this. Maybe he can weigh in. @greenbaggins
I have seen criticism of all of them, even from reputable, non-FV sources. To be clear though, I have not read either the reports or the federal visionists, so this is an expression of skepticism rather than criticism. Some of the criticism is not public, so I probably shouldn't name names.
The FV as I see it is a high-church movement that values the doctrine of the church to such salvific power as the body of Christ to such an extent that it collapses the administration and the substance of the covenant of grace, so that all who are baptized (believers and their children) are considered temporally (but not necessarily eternally) elect. Baptism objectively and really confers to all recipients the substance of God's grace in Christ (perseverance notwithstanding). To remain in communion with the benefits of Christ, one must remain "faithful" to the Lord. Only the decretally elect will remain faithful to the Lord and be justified eschatologically. (I see this in many ways akin to modern Lutheranism, in which the Holy Spirit uniformly grants saving faith in water baptism, but that faith must be exercised all life long to remain justified and in communion with Christ.)
The FV follows the Mosaic Covenant and Norm Shepard's view of the Adamic covenant, that is, placed in the land and covenant by grace, but then you stay in by faithfulness. It is, essentially, "monocovenantal" and denies in effect the covenant of works/covenant of grace distinction.
Check out the book Reformed is Not Enough: Restoring the Objectivity of the Covenant by Douglas Wilson. It's been years since I read it, but Wilson claims that the FV accurately follows the Westminster Standards and Calvin. And Peter Leithart, The Baptized Body, would be a necessary book too. Early into my foray into Reformed Christianity c. 2006 I loved these guys, but I learned this perverted the law/gospel distinction and ran away from it.
Bingo!In by grace (actually, baptism), stay in by covenantal faithfulness.
Although some might say that Piper believes in a form of covenantal faithfulness as well. Question for you Jacob: how do good works figure in for the Orthodox?
It's honestly so hard to find a fair representation of what proponents of federal vision theology believe.
Can someone please give me a brief summary?
Them easterners......Do you mean Reformed Orthodox or Eastern Orthodox?
Them easterners......
So, works. Seems like Rome at least has hammered out the system more fully. Less nebulous. Thanks for the reply.It's Semi-Pelagian, but not exactly the same as Rome. Short answer: man is made in the image, but not the likeness of God. By being baptized into the Orthodox church and doing ascetic deeds, and participating (in the Platonic meaning of the term) in the life of the church (where grace is found), you become transformed into the likeness of God. You might get to heaven.
So, works. Seems like Rome at least has hammered out the system more fully. Less nebulous. Thanks for the reply.
Thanks for asking this question... I also am still struggling to understand the main gist of FV... I guess I will have to dig into some of these referred links when I find the time.Thanks for all these helpful responses guys. I think I'm getting my head around it now.. Still a bit confused, so by the grace of God I will come to a greater understanding in the future!
Thanks also for sharing the older posts that address this question.
James
MTS Apprentice, PCNSW,
Sydney, Australia
They are also enamored with NT Wright and largely Iet him do the lifting (save James Jordan's bizarre code...) despite the fact that he doesn't really exegete.Thanks for all these helpful responses guys. I think I'm getting my head around it now.. Still a bit confused, so by the grace of God I will come to a greater understanding in the future!
Thanks also for sharing the older posts that address this question.
James
MTS Apprentice, PCNSW,
Sydney, Australia