Can "family" be an idol?

[Hebrew Student]

kvanlaan,

I don't think he is resting his entire argument on this one particular comparison and I'm not going to jettison a brilliant talk for one oddity (because, let's face it, no one would be able to hold Piper in any esteem if they dumped him every time he slipped up to the extent of that Dr Baucham apparently did). Not that I'm saying we shouldn't question it if he's wrong, but I am hard pressed to find fault in what the man is saying overall. His message is, to me, a wonderful application of spiritual truths that is needed so badly today.

kvanlaan, his entire argument was from Genesis 2. Also, not only is that verse a problem, but you also have the rest of the book of Genesis which clearly show that marriage has been affected by the fall. Consider the fact that, right after the fall and first sin, you have Lamech's polygamy [Genesis 4:19], [possibly Noah's nakedness, depending on how you interpret the sin of Ham (Genesis 9:22)], you then have Abraham's polygamious relationship with Sarah's handmaid Hagar [Genesis 16:1-6], the story of Sodom and Gomorrah [Genesis 19], Rebekah's deception of Isaac [Genesis 27], Jacob's polygamy [Genesis 29:18ff], Judah and Tamar [38:13-26], and one could even argue that Joseph marrying and Egyptian woman was not so good [Genesis 41:45]. Do these things sound like things that are "good?" No, obviously not. The point of them being included here is to show that there is a real effect of sin upon marriage. Marriage, while it is, in and of itself, good, has been effected by our sin, and made to be just as "not good" as singleness of Adam [Genesis 2:18]. Hence, there is no way one can argue that there is some necessity for people to get married on the basis of Genesis 2:18. Until Christ comes back, we only have the two options of not good in singleness, or not good in marriage.

I also think it is important that the book of Genesis makes it painfully clear that, far from sanctifying us, marriage can often times bring out the worst in us, precisely because it has been affected by the fall.

I am sensing some animosity from you towards those of us that love our families and enjoy our "blessings" (Psalm 127: 3-8) and want to disciple our children and bring them up in the fear and admonition of the Lord. I hope this is not the case and you are genuine in asking questions.

Not at all. There is no animosity towards loving family, and enjoying those blessings. The issue is binding things to the contience of God's people that are not found in God's word, and elevating marriage so high that one can call marriage "your whole life," as Voddie Baucham did. For those who have families, the whole reason why we love our families is because of the fact that our whole life is service to *God,* and part of the service to which he has called us is to love our families. Marriage is essential to the culture and to the covenant community, but, as far as its essential nature to most individuals after the fall, I do not think the Bible teaches such a thing. I do, however, believe that it is essential for the covenant community as a whole to have a ministry of having and raising covenant children. Indeed, I would say it is commanded for every covenant community to have people who are about the task of having and raising covenant children.

The issue is whether it is commanded for almost every individual, whether or not it sanctifies, and whether or not we are to consider it "our life." Hence, the issue is not whether we should enjoy the good gifts God has given us, but, rather, whether Albert Mohler, Voddie Baucham, et al. are telling us things that are Biblical about marriage, or, instead, making marriage out to be something that the scriptures just do not teach us.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[calgal]

Calgal, you said,

To the LDS their family BECOMES God. Keeping the family "faithful through the generations" is one of the core LDS doctrines. At an LDS temple wedding (creepiest thing ever) the bride and groom are directed to look in the mirrors on either side of the sealing room to represent "what eternity looks like" aka your forever family. And more food for thought: how different really is this mindset of "multigenerational faithfulness" to Federal Vision and why?

It is one thing to teach your children faithfully and another to "play God" in a way and try to look 5 generations down the road. That is too close to soothsaying in my opinion.I




I am sensing some animosity from you towards those of us that love our families and enjoy our "blessings" (Psalm 127: 3-8) and want to disciple our children and bring them up in the fear and admonition of the Lord. I hope this is not the case and you are genuine in asking questions.

I think that your accusation that Dr. Voddie Baucham is somehow teaching LDS doctrine is unfounded and uncalled for. I am not wanting to argue with you about this, but I don't know how anybody who is reformed could argue that having a multigenerational vision for your family is wrong, in light of the fact it is clearly taught in Scripture. In case you haven't noticed the WCF also includes a larger and shorter catechism to assist parents and churches in a multigenerational path in discipling the children. If you will read the reformers, puritans, and pilgrims what you will find is that they are in agreement with Dr. B. I know for my family when we began to read from these 3 groups, that we felt like we had discovered an ancient christian civilization and then began to ask ourselves, does anyone still believe these great truths? As it turns out there are many among the Presbyterian and Reformed Baptists that still believe and teach these biblical truths, such as R.C. Sroul, Sr. and Junior, Doug Phillips (Reformed Baptist), Kevin Swanson (OPC), Joe Morecraft (RPCUS), John Otis (RPCUS), Bill Einwechter (Reformed Baptist), Bruce Shortt (SBC), Kenneth and Randall Talbot (RPCGA), Jeff Pollard (Ref. Baptist), Ken Gentry, Gary DeMar (PCA), Greg Bahnsen (OPC), R.J. Rushdoony (OPC), Terry L. Johnson (Ind. Presbyterian), Elisabeth Elliot, Jay Adams, just to name a few.

BTW, I am not sure about your trying to connect the FV with the idea of the multigenerational view of the family. If by chance the FV does have a biblical view of the family, then kudo's to the FV for finally getting something right.

Please note, after posting this and rereading it. I wanted to add that I am not trying to be abrasive and do not want to come across that way, just discussing from one sister to another. Thanks!

Why you took my OP as calling Voddie or anyone else LDS is a bit baffling. The LDS overemphasis on "families are together forever" not their assortment of interesting and heretical beliefs was the subject. The LDS DO emphasize a multigenerational view of the family. This is a core doctrine of theirs in fact. The problem comes when we humans try to plan out the future. As a nice Southern Baptist I knew said: "That is above my paygrade." God alone knows the future. We can build a foundation then have to trust in the Lord that He will build upon that foundation.

Micah 7:6-7 sums up my thoughts far better than I could express

Micah 7:6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.

Micah 7:7 Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

Geneva Study Bible notes state this: "The Prophet shows that the only remedy for the godly in desperate evils, is to flee to God for help."

 

[Happy2BHome]

Calgal said,

We can build a foundation then have to trust in the Lord that He will build upon that foundation.


This is the very point Voddie is making in his lectures.

 

[Idelette]

This is a really interesting thread......I've been following it because I have such mixed feelings on this subject. On the one hand, I agree that we should endeavor as believers to uphold the sanctity of marriage and see families as a gift from God rather than a burden as our culture and time eludes too. It is a good and godly thing to raise children in the fear of the Lord.....and encourage the younger generations to be family-oriented as well. However, at the same time, I often wonder if some covenant believers have (in response to our culture) swung the pendulum all the way to other extreme. I say this because I know quite a few reformed people, that in my opinion are very close to worshipping their families. Although, I deeply respect them and value them as believers this has often been a concern to me. And while their intentions are good, and they are striving to teach their children good things, sometimes I feel they prize their families far more than God Himself!

I think of that quote by Luther "all that your heart clings to and confides in....that is really your God". In an essence if we confide more in our spouses than in the Lord then there is a problem.....and if we cling more to our children than the Lord, then there is a problem. I think there is certainly a danger in idolizing our families just as anything else. So, I guess I've come to the conclusion that we ought to take delight in and be good stewards of everything that the Lord has entrusted to us (including our families), but at the same time we ought not cling so tightly to them. We ought to be willing to part with them, as anything else, because they are not ours to begin with. They are only entrusted to us for a time. Ultimately, they are the Lord's! And so whether we are single or married, whether we have children or not, in whatever position we find ourselves....we ought to live as unto the Lord, being careful not to make idols of anything He that has given to us!

-----Added 3/25/2009 at 01:08:23 EST-----

btw, I didn't look at the Voddie thread....I was just discussing the question whether "family" could be an idol!

 

[kvanlaan]

The problem comes when we humans try to plan out the future.

Nobody's trying to plan out the future; this is a board full of confessional Calvinists, for pity's sake! God is sovereign, so are we then to sit back and let the kids 'coast' into heaven? No. We are to raise them, prune them, dung about them, train them up in the way they should go, etc. etc. etc. I'm talking about being responsible and the gravity of raising children. That upbringing is best done in the bosom of the family, and thus I feel an image of the family that Voddie is teaching is one that can weather the wiles of the world and the Devil in taking our children from us. It happens every day. I know so many families in which the parents are now aged and sit alone in church. The children have fallen away, and in many of the cases I've seen, there was no incubating family, no strong ties amongst them. It was "do as you will, enjoy your time at the mall, here's some extra cash and (fast forward five years) how is it that you've gotten into drugs and your girlfriend is pregnant????"

That's simple: the family wasn't there. There was no net to catch the falling child, in fact, there were no barriers/safety features at all.

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward."

We aren't planning our family's future, He is. But we have to listen.

Read ANY Puritan (I can't remember if it was Increase or Cotton that wrote some VERY specific stuff on the family, but there were plenty others as well) and we will see what Puritan Calvinist Christians (who we think are very cool indeed) thought a family should look like. Now put that model (albeit based on Scriptural implications, not verbatim ordinances) next to what we think is a good idea today. We come up mighty short.

 

[Scott Shahan]

I made my family my idol and the Lord took my idol from me. Now Jesus has my undivided attention..

 

[calgal]

The problem comes when we humans try to plan out the future.

Nobody's trying to plan out the future; this is a board full of confessional Calvinists, for pity's sake! God is sovereign, so are we then to sit back and let the kids 'coast' into heaven? No. We are to raise them, prune them, dung about them, train them up in the way they should go, etc. etc. etc. I'm talking about being responsible and the gravity of raising children. That upbringing is best done in the bosom of the family, and thus I feel an image of the family that Voddie is teaching is one that can weather the wiles of the world and the Devil in taking our children from us. It happens every day. I know so many families in which the parents are now aged and sit alone in church. The children have fallen away, and in many of the cases I've seen, there was no incubating family, no strong ties amongst them. It was "do as you will, enjoy your time at the mall, here's some extra cash and (fast forward five years) how is it that you've gotten into drugs and your girlfriend is pregnant????"

That's simple: the family wasn't there. There was no net to catch the falling child, in fact, there were no barriers/safety features at all.

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward."

We aren't planning our family's future, He is. But we have to listen.

Read ANY Puritan (I can't remember if it was Increase or Cotton that wrote some VERY specific stuff on the family, but there were plenty others as well) and we will see what Puritan Calvinist Christians (who we think are very cool indeed) thought a family should look like. Now put that model (albeit based on Scriptural implications, not verbatim ordinances) next to what we think is a good idea today. We come up mighty short.

That is a very good point Kevin and I agree with you.

Now the danger I see and the one I hope I can explain is when well intentioned believers are cleaving too closely to ones family. That means no kids being allowed to work outside the family business, not being allowed to attend university (a note: if the family indeed taught the children well and there IS a foundation of strong personal faith the child is not going to fall away) and not being allowed to decide whether to stay around mom & dad or to move away for work or as God wills them to do. I have no problem when someone does not personally want higher education: it is not for everyone BUT when it becomes "forbidden" (and Voddie himself has stated he opposes his kids going to college) then there is a BIG red flag that goes up. Same goes for how a family operates. There are plenty of families (GM families around these parts) who had a sudden shift in the breadwinner. Does that negate the headship of dad? Not at all unless Dad has never been head of the family in the first place.

 

[kvanlaan]

Now the danger I see and the one I hope I can explain is when well intentioned believers are cleaving too closely to ones family. That means no kids being allowed to work outside the family business, not being allowed to attend university (a note: if the family indeed taught the children well and there IS a foundation of strong personal faith the child is not going to fall away) and not being allowed to decide whether to stay around mom & dad or to move away for work or as God wills them to do.

It depends on the situation, I think. If I have a son who is 21 and married/out of the house, he may do as he pleases - I've had 21 years to mold him and shape him as best I can, and he can make his own decisions, my opinion notwithstanding. But if I have a 17 year old who, though a believer, is impetuous/immature and still under my roof, although he may be qualified to attend university from an academic point of view, he's not going. If he is the same way at 20 and still at home, he's still not going. And should I believe, for whatever reason, that a boy needs to earn a living "by the sweat of his brow" and take up a trade, and not attend university, then that is how I will raise my son to think (not to forbid something at the last minute that he's been working towards for his whole life), and such is life. He'll never even know the difference in that case because it has never been an issue.

But that's why so much depends on the wisdom of our fathers. I have known families that have been dragged through the mud due to decisions of foolish fathers, that's why my children pray for me every day, that the Lord may grant me wisdom. But at the end of the day, it is my responsibility and my decision how I raise my child in the light of how I read my Bible and how I am fed in the pew. It may seem like a chauvenistic way to run a family, but it is a position of enormous, almost crushing, responsibility. As I mentioned earlier, we have for some reason or anther been given the reigns to God's masterwork on earth; that's huge.

I have no problem when someone does not personally want higher education: it is not for everyone BUT when it becomes "forbidden" (and Voddie himself has stated he opposes his kids going to college) then there is a BIG red flag that goes up.

So Voddie's line may produce a long line of godly plumbers/carpenters/electricians/mothers. But I think what you will find is that he is not arguing against higher education per se, but against the necessity of higher education. His own daughter is enrolled in a distance learning program. I think it was Voddie that was a jock at university when he was saved; he has seen the bottom of the barrel and knows what a cesspool universities can be (and that's outside the classroom!) so he is careful with the children he's been given, that's all. Really now, he himself has advanced degrees - I don't think he's preaching that higher education is an evil in and of itself.

 

[the particular baptist]

Suppose the state mandated that an i.d. be tattooed on the back of every child in the country if for nothing more than i.d.'s sake. I think most people, even unbelievers would object. Why then do we think its okay for the state to imprint and indoctrinate our kids minds with humanism and all the cultural filth of the day ? I think the latter is far more insidious.

Deut 6 does not give my conscience the liberty to give my kids minds to the state. If the Lord gave me the children then He holds me responsible and accountable for them. I take that very seriously. It has zero to do with idolizing my family and everything to do with being faithful to God.

 

[satz]

And should I believe, for whatever reason, that a boy needs to earn a living "by the sweat of his brow" and take up a trade, and not attend university, then that is how I will raise my son to think (not to forbid something at the last minute that he's been working towards for his whole life), and such is life. He'll never even know the difference in that case because it has never been an issue.

I don't think it is possible to deny that this would be 100% within a father's authority as given to him by God.

I am not so sure if fathers should be encouraged to exercise their authority in this manner, which to me, does at first glance come of as somewhat overbearing and arbitrary.

I do not think parents should be making decisions for their children that are going to affect them for the rest of their lives (and long after the parents have departed) based solely on the parent's preferences. To an extent (and I'll admit I have no bible proof for this) I think parents should allow children their liberty in these matters when it does not contradict God's word. So as much as possible, I think parents should allow children to chose their own way of making a living (it is the children go are going to do the work for the rest of their lives after all).

Now if a parent thinks that university is unsuitable because of the evil communications it will involve, that is a biblical reason to make a choice against university. If university is impossible without incurring massive debt, that too is a biblical reason to make a choice as a parent. To have a preference (and I believe that is all it is) for working by the sweat of his brow is, I think, not really a good reason to dictate the rest of a child's life to him. Still within the authority God has given? Yes. But I don't think it should be encouraged.

(I know you were just using it as an example!)

 

[Idelette]

I made my family my idol and the Lord took my idol from me. Now Jesus has my undivided attention..

I'm sorry Scott!

 

[Scott Shahan]

I made my family my idol and the Lord took my idol from me. Now Jesus has my undivided attention..

I'm sorry Scott!

I look at it as part of my sanctification process. The Lord will remove our idols from us. He is a jealous God, and demands to be #1. Jesus showed me that He needs to be my ultimate Love, and not other things/people. I was blinded to my idolatry until the Lord began to remove my idols. Sin breeds spiritual blindness.. I am grateful for His Chastisment, and for the much suffering that came with all the loses, for it made me depend on Jesus all the more. I am a changed man because of the afflictions.. Soli deo Gloria!

 

[Hebrew Student]

kvanlaan,

But if I have a 17 year old who, though a believer, is impetuous/immature and still under my roof, although he may be qualified to attend university from an academic point of view, he's not going. If he is the same way at 20 and still at home, he's still not going. And should I believe, for whatever reason, that a boy needs to earn a living "by the sweat of his brow" and take up a trade, and not attend university, then that is how I will raise my son to think (not to forbid something at the last minute that he's been working towards for his whole life), and such is life. He'll never even know the difference in that case because it has never been an issue.

This is another reason why I have criticized Voddie Baucham and others, and that is because of the fact that this will not cure him of his immaturity. If he is immature before he takes the hard labor job, what makes you think that the hard labor job and marriage is going to somehow make him more mature? I have met plenty of immature people in my lifetime, yes, even those who are married, and have hard labor jobs. In fact, even worse, most of them tend to get fired. Then they have no money, no job, and a wife and kids that they refuse to take care of. You see, unless his heart is changed from immature to mature, which can only happen by the work of the Holy Spirit in his life, he will just jump around from job to job and never be able to be responsible.

Marriage and hard labor cannot cure a child of immaturity. In fact, if he ends up with a wife and kids with no job, or jumping around from job to job, the situation will be even worse. The problem is the immaturity, not his lack of a hard labor job, or his lack of a spouse.

I believe a child should be able to do what God has called them to do. If he has called them to do scholarship, then they should be able to postpone marriage so that they can get their Phd. If God has called them to a simple hard labor job to marry and have kids, then they should be able to have a hard labor job to marry and raise children. The problem is that we need both of these people in the church.

For instance, I don't know if any of you heard, there was a controversy at Westminster Seminary recently over a now former professor by the name of Peter Enns. Now, I have known for quite some time that many people who call themselves evangelicals in the field of Old Testament studies really do not have an orthodox view of scripture. The reason for this is the field of Old Testament studies is extremely liberal. We handed over the Old Testament to the liberals along time ago, and they have been shredding it ever since. We really need good, Godly Christian men in this field, who have orthodox views of scripture, and are good at polemics. In fact, given the way the field is now, we have far too few. It is dishonoring to God's law to just tell people they must marry young, and therefore, cut down on the number of people that are going into this field thus throwing the Old Testament to the liberals for them to abuse.

On the other hand, it is also dishonoring to God to have everyone to into that field, and neglect that the church also needs men who work a hard labor job just to put food on the table and a roof over the heads of their family, but who raise them, and teaches them after Christ. Such a person is essential to any church community, as they will produce children who may be used of God to go into academic pursuits, may produce more men of God, or may have some other service to which God has called them.

The point is that we need people to serve God in both of these ways, and it is all going to depend on God's calling. However, no matter what your calling, there is no excuse for spiritual immaturity. If a person is not growing in Christ, then I would have serious concerns about that person spiritually. We need to be careful to recognize that there are certain things God calls unacceptable no matter what vocation God has called us to.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[AThornquist]

kvanlaan,

But if I have a 17 year old who, though a believer, is impetuous/immature and still under my roof, although he may be qualified to attend university from an academic point of view, he's not going. If he is the same way at 20 and still at home, he's still not going. And should I believe, for whatever reason, that a boy needs to earn a living "by the sweat of his brow" and take up a trade, and not attend university, then that is how I will raise my son to think (not to forbid something at the last minute that he's been working towards for his whole life), and such is life. He'll never even know the difference in that case because it has never been an issue.

This is another reason why I have criticized Voddie Baucham and others, and that is because of the fact that this will not cure him of his immaturity. If he is immature before he takes the hard labor job, what makes you think that the hard labor job and marriage is going to somehow make him more mature? I have met plenty of immature people in my lifetime, yes, even those who are married, and have hard labor jobs. In fact, even worse, most of them tend to get fired. Then they have no money, no job, and a wife and kids that they refuse to take care of. You see, unless his heart is changed from immature to mature, which can only happen by the work of the Holy Spirit in his life, he will just jump around from job to job and never be able to be responsible.

So wasting money at a university and placing him in a position to cause great spiritual harm would be better? I think I...hmm nope, I don't understand.

And saying that he won't mature while staying home to grow for a season is pure speculation. There are people who have done it. And if we have to wait until the Spirit suddenly moves in a persons life to make them mature, which includes responsibility and stability as you say, how is university an environment more conducive to this growth? Are we to throw our children to the wolves so that after a time of deep spiritual wounds they can finally return to God in tears, or are we to raise our children to manhood and then let them fight the wolves?

 

[Hebrew Student]

AThornquist,

I am saying that they should be ready before they go . For example, I studied for three years at an Lutheran Church Missouri Synod university, and am now about to get my masters at Trinity before I even go into the university setting. Also, I am not objecting to someone waiting until they are more mature, but rather, to someone saying that they must work a hard labor job and marry as their vocation just simply because they are immature. They have the responsibility to do what God has called them, and, if that means that they have to not go off to college for a while, then that is what it means.

Secondly, the problem in each instance is the immaturity. My point is that, in either case, the immaturity needs to be dealt with, and neither hard labor nor marriage will do it. God must deal with the person's heart. I would say the person who gets eaten up at university because of immaturity, and the person who dishonors his spouse and kids because of immaturity are in an equally bad situation, because the root problem of sin was never addressed in the first place, and neither marriage, hard labor, or the university are going to help. Only God can help what is truly the problem.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[AThornquist]

Hmm. I'm still about some of the statements in this thread then, but that's okay. I do agree that immaturity is an issue in both circumstances but there are also different kinds of immaturity (though I don't care enough to jump into that discussion!). A person may be ready for certain labors and a marriage while not ready to be immersed in the company of the wicked for one reason or another.
Regardless, we can agree on the fact that on one hand we need to follow the Lord's guidance, as you said, but we also need to raise our children to respect our parenthood and submissively follow our loving guidance. Kevin mentioned that he would raise his child in such a way that he or she will follow his guidance in the fear of the Lord. He is the head of his household and is ultimately responsible for the way he raises his children. Thus, I do not want to be the man who wrongly criticizes him for how he trains up his own.

 

[Hippo]

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

(Luke 14:26)

 

[Hebrew Student]

AThornquist,

He is the head of his household and is ultimately responsible for the way he raises his children. Thus, I do not want to be the man who wrongly criticizes him for how he trains up his own.

I agree, and I wasn't meaning to imply that I was trying to force Kevin to not do what Voddie Baucham is saying, and I am sorry if I came across that way. You are right, it is ultimately him who is going to have to make his own decision.

However, I am going to be a father one day. I am engaged, and my fiance has said that she would like to have children. These are going to be questions that I am going to be asking, and I think we all need to be going back to God's word, and asking the appropriate questions, and really wrestling with the text of scripture in order to find the answers.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[Scott Shahan]

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

(Luke 14:26)

 

[the particular baptist]

I think we all need to be going back to God's word, and asking the appropriate questions, and really wrestling with the text of scripture in order to find the answers.

There are sufficient biblical principles to convince me that handing over the minds of my children to pagan humanists to indoctrinate is wrong.

In the end, it is an area of Christian liberty and i cannot and will not judge anyone who chooses the school system for their children.

 

[Hebrew Student]

PactumServa72,

There are sufficient biblical principles to convince me that handing over the minds of my children to pagan humanists to indoctrinate is wrong.

Actually, let me quote from one of my earlier posts:

I am saying that they should be ready before they go . For example, I studied for three years at an Lutheran Church Missouri Synod university, and am now about to get my masters at Trinity before I even go into the university setting. Also, I am not objecting to someone waiting until they are more mature, but rather, to someone saying that they must work a hard labor job and marry as their vocation just simply because they are immature. They have the responsibility to do what God has called them, and, if that means that they have to not go off to college for a while, then that is what it means.

I agree that we should not be sending children off to pagan humanists to have them indoctrinated. However, let me ask you this, should we continue to allow the liberals to abuse the Old Testament, and have as the only professors available at our seminaries, people who will train our pastors to have contempt for the law of God? Of course not. We do need to "indoctrinate" our children with Christianity before they go off to study. They need to understand a Christian worldview as well as the worldview into which they are going. However, that does not mean that we never enter these fields of study simply because of the fact that they are antagonistic to a Christian worldview. We are seeing the results of just such thinking in the Old Testament departments of secular, liberal, and now even conservative institutions. I would think that those who love God's law would see this as a problem.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[kvanlaan]

To have a preference (and I believe that is all it is) for working by the sweat of his brow is, I think, not really a good reason to dictate the rest of a child's life to him. Still within the authority God has given? Yes. But I don't think it should be encouraged.

A preference? I don't think so. You don't base life decisions for your children on 'personal preference'.

We should talk after you have children of your own. It's mostly armchair academics until you have have little bodies with eternal souls dependent on you for their welfare and upbringing.

-----Added 3/25/2009 at 04:26:17 EST-----

This is another reason why I have criticized Voddie Baucham and others, and that is because of the fact that this will not cure him of his immaturity. If he is immature before he takes the hard labor job, what makes you think that the hard labor job and marriage is going to somehow make him more mature? I have met plenty of immature people in my lifetime, yes, even those who are married, and have hard labor jobs. In fact, even worse, most of them tend to get fired. Then they have no money, no job, and a wife and kids that they refuse to take care of. You see, unless his heart is changed from immature to mature, which can only happen by the work of the Holy Spirit in his life, he will just jump around from job to job and never be able to be responsible.

Marriage and hard labor cannot cure a child of immaturity. In fact, if he ends up with a wife and kids with no job, or jumping around from job to job, the situation will be even worse. The problem is the immaturity, not his lack of a hard labor job, or his lack of a spouse.

You're missing the point entirely here. I am not saying that it is about hard work curing immaturity (nor, I believe, is Dr Baucham). It is about a direction for one's life and what must be involved in the career choices you make. Plumbers need not run the gauntlet of university.

 

[LawrenceU]

I've just finished reading this thread. Kevin, you are right on the money. I can't add a thing . . . yet.

 

[Hebrew Student]

kvanlaan,

You're missing the point entirely here. I am not saying that it is about hard work curing immaturity (nor, I believe, is Dr Baucham). It is about a direction for one's life and what must be involved in the career choices you make. Plumbers need not run the gauntlet of university.

Ok, I must have misunderstood what you were saying. I know I have heard Albert Mohler talk about people's called to marriage simply because marriage is something of a sanctifying agent [for things like immaturity]. I guess I must have read that into what you were saying.

My apologies.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[calgal]

I think we all need to be going back to God's word, and asking the appropriate questions, and really wrestling with the text of scripture in order to find the answers.

There are sufficient biblical principles to convince me that handing over the minds of my children to pagan humanists to indoctrinate is wrong.

In the end, it is an area of Christian liberty and i cannot and will not judge anyone who chooses the school system for their children.

What about Christian schools?

 

[satz]

To have a preference (and I believe that is all it is) for working by the sweat of his brow is, I think, not really a good reason to dictate the rest of a child's life to him. Still within the authority God has given? Yes. But I don't think it should be encouraged.

A preference? I don't think so. You don't base life decisions for your children on 'personal preference'.

Kevin,

I was only responding to your particular sentence about training up a child not to go to university because you believed working by the sweat of your brow was better (I wasn't really sure if you actually held to it or was only using it as an example).

Since the bible never (to my knowledge) states that physical work is better, it still seems that for a parent to take such a position for that reason alone is a matter of that parent's personal preference. As I tried to explain in my post, there are many biblical reasons to decide why the university route is not appropriate for a child.

We should talk after you have children of your own. It's mostly armchair academics until you have have little bodies with eternal souls dependent on you for their welfare and upbringing.

I admit that not being a parent I will probably never be able to understand certain things.

Still, since you didn't explain why you held to that position (if indeed you did) you didn't really give me a chance...

I don't think it is a matter of armchair academics. If you say it is not a matter of personal preference, than you should be able to give at least a bible argument (not necessarily a command, but at least a principle) to back up your position.

Looking at your earlier statement:

"And should I believe, for whatever reason, that a boy needs to earn a living "by the sweat of his brow" and take up a trade, and not attend university, then that is how I will raise my son to think (not to forbid something at the last minute that he's been working towards for his whole life), and such is life. He'll never even know the difference in that case because it has never been an issue."

Could you explain how it is not personal preference to decide from the time your child is only young what means of earning a living he will take?

 

[calgal]

To have a preference (and I believe that is all it is) for working by the sweat of his brow is, I think, not really a good reason to dictate the rest of a child's life to him. Still within the authority God has given? Yes. But I don't think it should be encouraged.

A preference? I don't think so. You don't base life decisions for your children on 'personal preference'.

We should talk after you have children of your own. It's mostly armchair academics until you have have little bodies with eternal souls dependent on you for their welfare and upbringing.

-----Added 3/25/2009 at 04:26:17 EST-----

This is another reason why I have criticized Voddie Baucham and others, and that is because of the fact that this will not cure him of his immaturity. If he is immature before he takes the hard labor job, what makes you think that the hard labor job and marriage is going to somehow make him more mature? I have met plenty of immature people in my lifetime, yes, even those who are married, and have hard labor jobs. In fact, even worse, most of them tend to get fired. Then they have no money, no job, and a wife and kids that they refuse to take care of. You see, unless his heart is changed from immature to mature, which can only happen by the work of the Holy Spirit in his life, he will just jump around from job to job and never be able to be responsible.

Marriage and hard labor cannot cure a child of immaturity. In fact, if he ends up with a wife and kids with no job, or jumping around from job to job, the situation will be even worse. The problem is the immaturity, not his lack of a hard labor job, or his lack of a spouse.

You're missing the point entirely here. I am not saying that it is about hard work curing immaturity (nor, I believe, is Dr Baucham). It is about a direction for one's life and what must be involved in the career choices you make. Plumbers need not run the gauntlet of university.

As a married man and father, do you really think it matures a man to be a husband and father or working at a "hard labor job"? In fact, the immature child would be at the same or greater risk of "doing stupid stuff" at the jobsite where the guys are all going out drinking (or to the strip club) as they would be in a college. And the impact on the wife and kids would be far far worse than a single college kid being stupid.

 

[the particular baptist]

I think we all need to be going back to God's word, and asking the appropriate questions, and really wrestling with the text of scripture in order to find the answers.

There are sufficient biblical principles to convince me that handing over the minds of my children to pagan humanists to indoctrinate is wrong.

In the end, it is an area of Christian liberty and i cannot and will not judge anyone who chooses the school system for their children.

What about Christian schools?

I dont have a bias against Christian schools. Education is important (my 1st grader is capable of 3rd grade curriculum), but my first priority is their character and my wife and i are the best qualified for that job at the moment.

 

[kvanlaan]

As a married man and father, do you really think it matures a man to be a husband and father or working at a "hard labor job"? In fact, the immature child would be at the same or greater risk of "doing stupid stuff" at the jobsite where the guys are all going out drinking (or to the strip club) as they would be in a college. And the impact on the wife and kids would be far far worse than a single college kid being stupid.

But that's just my point, I don't think that it would mature a man to be working a hard labour job - that has nothing to do with it. See here:

I am not saying that it is about hard work curing immaturity (nor, I believe, is Dr Baucham). It is about a direction for one's life and what must be involved in the career choices you make. Plumbers need not run the gauntlet of university.

This is NOT saying that, 'well, he's too immature for college and the white collar world, he should become a plumber.' It is saying that we should 'flee from sin' and thus marinating my son in the Bacchanalian splendor of a local university by him living on campus is not good for him, be he wise or unwise. He could live at home, taking class during the day if he really wished to go.

But I think I would keep an eye on my son and look for what he's good at, see what interests him. I already know that he my eldest son does not want a desk job, he wants to work with his hands. So we will find him a trade.

Take for example an electrician. Up here, our Reformed churches are full of self-employed tradesmen. Were my son Judah to show an interest in becoming an electrician, I would look around the churches here for an electrician under whom he could do an apprecticeship, at whatever age he felt ready. He would learn job skills from a Christian man before he began working for one of the smaller companies around here (many are run by local reformed men) and then he's a licensed electrician. He could go out on his own or work in any company he chose. That's my plan of attack. My cousin did exactly this and makes over $50K a year. It's a fine, respectable job.

But I think what you are missing here is that a trade is not a job to take because he is immature, it is because he is more inclined to work with his hands. If I truly felt that university was not suitable (with regards to being a poor environment for a young Christian man), I would recommend either living at home and taking class during the day, or taking a distance learning course, I'm not going to quash his desire for knowledge and call it evil. At this point, it is how he acquires the knowledge that is my concern. We'll get to subject matter later, depending on what his interests are. For now, he's 14, and trade skills are good to have anyway, so he helps me around the house when I do projects. He will learn how to use an axe, a chainsaw, and do small repairs in the next couple of years. This is just handy to know in running his own family, it need not become a trade.

-----Added 3/25/2009 at 08:42:59 EST-----

I was only responding to your particular sentence about training up a child not to go to university because you believed working by the sweat of your brow was better (I wasn't really sure if you actually held to it or was only using it as an example).

Since the bible never (to my knowledge) states that physical work is better, it still seems that for a parent to take such a position for that reason alone is a matter of that parent's personal preference. As I tried to explain in my post, there are many biblical reasons to decide why the university route is not appropriate for a child.

Mark, I think that with regards to working by the sweat of their brow, I am only using that phrase as an example, though I know that many Amish/Mennonite types use God's words at the time of the Fall as reason to concentrate their job choices on farming and carpentry. I'm not sure that holds a lot of water, it's just what came to mind.

-----Added 3/25/2009 at 09:11:31 EST-----

Could you explain how it is not personal preference to decide from the time your child is only young what means of earning a living he will take?

First, I am not deciding how my child will earn a living, he will. I will counsel him strongly based on my personal experience and interpretation of scripture. If he wants a BA in business, I won't forbid it, but I will do my best to ensure that the means of his getting it keep him from a harmful environment. I am hoping he will learn from my mistakes, that's the main thrust of this comment. In the case of my eldest, I already know that he wants to work a trade, he's told us he is interested in working with his hands. My focus now is on showing him the wisdom of saving his earnings and not blowing them as many do. If he starts saving his money from part-time work now, and then moves into an apprenticeship when he's 18/done with highschool, he could be buying his own house by the time he's 20 without too much in the way of a mortgage.

 

[Mushroom]

Am I imagining things, or is it mostly folks without kids that are skeptical of what Kevin's saying? Now that's a big surprise!

Your doin' fine, Kev, I'm with you all the way. Guess now I've gotta set aside the time to watch Voddie's video.