Hebrew Student
Puritan Board Freshman
kvanlaan,
kvanlaan, his entire argument was from Genesis 2. Also, not only is that verse a problem, but you also have the rest of the book of Genesis which clearly show that marriage has been affected by the fall. Consider the fact that, right after the fall and first sin, you have Lamech's polygamy [Genesis 4:19], [possibly Noah's nakedness, depending on how you interpret the sin of Ham (Genesis 9:22)], you then have Abraham's polygamious relationship with Sarah's handmaid Hagar [Genesis 16:1-6], the story of Sodom and Gomorrah [Genesis 19], Rebekah's deception of Isaac [Genesis 27], Jacob's polygamy [Genesis 29:18ff], Judah and Tamar [38:13-26], and one could even argue that Joseph marrying and Egyptian woman was not so good [Genesis 41:45]. Do these things sound like things that are "good?" No, obviously not. The point of them being included here is to show that there is a real effect of sin upon marriage. Marriage, while it is, in and of itself, good, has been effected by our sin, and made to be just as "not good" as singleness of Adam [Genesis 2:18]. Hence, there is no way one can argue that there is some necessity for people to get married on the basis of Genesis 2:18. Until Christ comes back, we only have the two options of not good in singleness, or not good in marriage.
I also think it is important that the book of Genesis makes it painfully clear that, far from sanctifying us, marriage can often times bring out the worst in us, precisely because it has been affected by the fall.
Not at all. There is no animosity towards loving family, and enjoying those blessings. The issue is binding things to the contience of God's people that are not found in God's word, and elevating marriage so high that one can call marriage "your whole life," as Voddie Baucham did. For those who have families, the whole reason why we love our families is because of the fact that our whole life is service to *God,* and part of the service to which he has called us is to love our families. Marriage is essential to the culture and to the covenant community, but, as far as its essential nature to most individuals after the fall, I do not think the Bible teaches such a thing. I do, however, believe that it is essential for the covenant community as a whole to have a ministry of having and raising covenant children. Indeed, I would say it is commanded for every covenant community to have people who are about the task of having and raising covenant children.
The issue is whether it is commanded for almost every individual, whether or not it sanctifies, and whether or not we are to consider it "our life." Hence, the issue is not whether we should enjoy the good gifts God has given us, but, rather, whether Albert Mohler, Voddie Baucham, et al. are telling us things that are Biblical about marriage, or, instead, making marriage out to be something that the scriptures just do not teach us.
God Bless,
Adam
I don't think he is resting his entire argument on this one particular comparison and I'm not going to jettison a brilliant talk for one oddity (because, let's face it, no one would be able to hold Piper in any esteem if they dumped him every time he slipped up to the extent of that Dr Baucham apparently did). Not that I'm saying we shouldn't question it if he's wrong, but I am hard pressed to find fault in what the man is saying overall. His message is, to me, a wonderful application of spiritual truths that is needed so badly today.
kvanlaan, his entire argument was from Genesis 2. Also, not only is that verse a problem, but you also have the rest of the book of Genesis which clearly show that marriage has been affected by the fall. Consider the fact that, right after the fall and first sin, you have Lamech's polygamy [Genesis 4:19], [possibly Noah's nakedness, depending on how you interpret the sin of Ham (Genesis 9:22)], you then have Abraham's polygamious relationship with Sarah's handmaid Hagar [Genesis 16:1-6], the story of Sodom and Gomorrah [Genesis 19], Rebekah's deception of Isaac [Genesis 27], Jacob's polygamy [Genesis 29:18ff], Judah and Tamar [38:13-26], and one could even argue that Joseph marrying and Egyptian woman was not so good [Genesis 41:45]. Do these things sound like things that are "good?" No, obviously not. The point of them being included here is to show that there is a real effect of sin upon marriage. Marriage, while it is, in and of itself, good, has been effected by our sin, and made to be just as "not good" as singleness of Adam [Genesis 2:18]. Hence, there is no way one can argue that there is some necessity for people to get married on the basis of Genesis 2:18. Until Christ comes back, we only have the two options of not good in singleness, or not good in marriage.
I also think it is important that the book of Genesis makes it painfully clear that, far from sanctifying us, marriage can often times bring out the worst in us, precisely because it has been affected by the fall.
I am sensing some animosity from you towards those of us that love our families and enjoy our "blessings" (Psalm 127: 3-8) and want to disciple our children and bring them up in the fear and admonition of the Lord. I hope this is not the case and you are genuine in asking questions.
Not at all. There is no animosity towards loving family, and enjoying those blessings. The issue is binding things to the contience of God's people that are not found in God's word, and elevating marriage so high that one can call marriage "your whole life," as Voddie Baucham did. For those who have families, the whole reason why we love our families is because of the fact that our whole life is service to *God,* and part of the service to which he has called us is to love our families. Marriage is essential to the culture and to the covenant community, but, as far as its essential nature to most individuals after the fall, I do not think the Bible teaches such a thing. I do, however, believe that it is essential for the covenant community as a whole to have a ministry of having and raising covenant children. Indeed, I would say it is commanded for every covenant community to have people who are about the task of having and raising covenant children.
The issue is whether it is commanded for almost every individual, whether or not it sanctifies, and whether or not we are to consider it "our life." Hence, the issue is not whether we should enjoy the good gifts God has given us, but, rather, whether Albert Mohler, Voddie Baucham, et al. are telling us things that are Biblical about marriage, or, instead, making marriage out to be something that the scriptures just do not teach us.
God Bless,
Adam