Can a 5-point Arminian go to Heaven?

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Obviously, I am asking for a little theological speculation here. We do not know the deep counsels of God, and we cannot see into human hearts.

Nevertheless, we read the Scriptures carefully, and we make decisions based on what the Bible says. That is why we reject Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. But what about staunch 5-point Arminians?

Let me be even more specific: If a person believes that he can lose his salvation, then is he trusting in Christ alone for his salvation? If not, then can he still be a Christian?

For this poll, I'm not going to vote for a while. I want to hear the thoughts of others, and I want to find out where everyone else stands. This question has been a struggle for me, considering how many Arminian family members I have.

As a backdrop for this poll, please consider Matt's article on Arminianism here: http://www.apuritansmind.com/Arminianism/Arminianism.htm

I agree with Matt that full-blown historic Arminianism is a heresy.

I also agree that a person does not have to be a 5-point Calvinist to be regenerate. (Thank God!)

But where should the doctrinal line be drawn? If a person is a 5-point Arminian, and even rejects eternal-security / perseverance of the saints, then is that person trusting in Christ alone for salvation?

Can a 5-point Arminian be a Christian?

Personally, I don't care for the way the poll is worded because it leaves me to choose between to options, neither of which are necessarily so. If there was a "Maybe" button, I would vote that way.

Most Arminians (I say this as one who has a lot of Arminian family members and as one who has rubbed elbows with a lot), are more guilty of fuzzy thinking (or no thinking) than serious theological reflection. They will adamantly affirm salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone. They just have a very low view of grace. I don't think one can read the writings of Arminius, or John Wesley, or my grandfather for that matter (a staunch Arminian in the Weslyan tradition!) and not be convinced of the reality of their regeneration.

Dort may have gone too far in decrying the Remonstrants as heretics in 1619, but then there were other issues at stake, not the least of which was church/state relations.

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Believe that Christ ALONE saves you. It is that simple. A child can believe that.

in my opinion, Arminians (as defined above) deny it.

You probably have not talked to any then. As I said in a different post, most Arminians are more guilty of fuzzy theological thinking than denying grace.

 

[kevin.carroll]

I should have read the rest of the thread, as now I see where Jeff was going with his arguments!

Agreed, Arminianism in its purest form denies grace. And yet, most Arminans do not give much thought to the logical conclusions of their own positions. I doubt seriously that God holds this against them. It is one thing to attempt to establish ones own righteousness in a brazen rejection of grace. It is another entirely to be guilty of not thinking deeply enough about grace.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

I don't think Dort went too far in calling arminianism heresy. It is. But at teh same time we must understand the shallow intellectual condition of the church today. There are many Arminians, as Kevin pointed out, who would adamantly deny they believe in salvation by works or self-salvation. For the most part I would agree with them too, especially when you see how their lives are dominated by loving obedience to the best of their ability. The problem, and the hope, of most Arminians is inconsistent thinking. You must allow for growth in the grace AND knowledge of our Lord, especially with the severe lack of faithful teachers in the Church today.

 

[BobVigneault]

That's the key right there. To borrow Josh Hicks wonderful word - Arminians are not the most 'theologious' members of the body.

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by The Lamb
Did Christ ask Peter if he believed in the 5 points from dordt? Did He ask Peter anything pertaining to what He believed? NO> He asked if He loved Him.

No he did not ask him about the 5 pts. from dort, and rightly so for several reasons.
1) The synod of Dordt hadn't occured yet
2) NOBODY, let me repeat this ONE last time NOBODY on this thread is suggesting that one must assent to the 5 points of calvinism in order to be saved.
3) He did ask him the following:
"But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Originally posted by The Lamb
Plus, the whole of scripture does not even get into some sort of "doctrinal salvation" jeff. This is a bigger error than arminianism.

See above. Nobody has ever suggested a doctrinal salvation, unless you call the gospel a doctrine....then yes a person MUST believe the gospel before he is saved. You deny this, orthodoxy affirms this. Many scriptures have been given to you in the thread on "eternal justification" and you denyed them.

Originally posted by The Lamb
You also mentioned judging saving faith. Where are we commanded to do that?

You shall know them by their fruits. The fruits are the fruits of the spirit that Paul lists.

Psalm 5:9 - There is nothing reliable in what they say; Their inward part is destruction itself. Their throat is an open grave; They flatter with their tongue.

Matthew 7:15-20 - Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Matthew 12:36-37 - 36But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Mark 16:16 - 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 6:43-45 -"For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. 45A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart[g] brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

This verse PROVES that the FRUIT we are to judge is a persons profession, for what comes out of their mouth, comes from the heart.

Luke 19:22 - And he said to him, "Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant

John 7:24 - Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

1 Corinthians 10:14-15 - 14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say.

Galatians 1:8 - But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Here we are commanded not only to judge the gospel that MEN preach, but even if an ANGEL preaches, we are to judge what they say.

Hebrews 4:12 - 12For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We are to compare everything they say, not according to our opinions, but according to the Word of God.

1 John 4:1-3a - 1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.

1 John 4:6 - We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

2 John 9-10 - 9Whoever transgresses[d] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by kevin.carroll

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Believe that Christ ALONE saves you. It is that simple. A child can believe that.

in my opinion, Arminians (as defined above) deny it.

You probably have not talked to any then. As I said in a different post, most Arminians are more guilty of fuzzy theological thinking than denying grace.

In fact, I myself was a staunch Arminian (although i didn't read Arminius or Wesley) and most of my family, including my parents are still Arminian.

When presented with the five points of Calvinism, I immediately HATED the truth. While not being able to defend the Arminian position, after I looked at the 5 pts. of Arminianism, I knew that is what I believed my entire life (without knowing it).

 

[The Lamb]

Jeff, I have read the scriptures. And I believe them `100%, I do nto know what the eternal justification thread has to do with this. But moving forward.

You are still not addressing an important issue.

Those whom Christ physically encountered and saved did nto have access to the Holy Writ as we do today.

Did blind bart know of the 5 points?

You insist that noone is saying one must believe in the 5 points of cal to be saved, and rightly so, but you also say that is one believes any point of the remons, they are unregenerate? How can this be? Is this saying, :I may not know what the truth is, but I know what it is not?"

The encounter with Peter I am speaking of is after His resurrection in Johns account.

Do you love me 3 times Jeff... Nothing else was asked.

I believe Peter was regenerate long before then.

The context of fruits is not exactly what you say. Many profess to be His, but are not. This is what Christ is speaking about.

This is how we are justified before men. By our works. But even then one can do well, but still do them for the wrong reasons.

Can a 5-point Arminian be a Christian? THis was the original question. I say yes.


Joseph

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by The Lamb
Jeff, I have read the scriptures. And I believe them `100%, I do nto know what the eternal justification thread has to do with this. But moving forward.

You are still not addressing an important issue.

Those whom Christ physically encountered and saved did nto have access to the Holy Writ as we do today.

Did blind bart know of the 5 points?

You insist that noone is saying one must believe in the 5 points of cal to be saved, and rightly so, but you also say that is one believes any point of the remons, they are unregenerate? How can this be? Is this saying, :I may not know what the truth is, but I know what it is not?"

The encounter with Peter I am speaking of is after His resurrection in Johns account.

Do you love me 3 times Jeff... Nothing else was asked.

I believe Peter was regenerate long before then.

The context of fruits is not exactly what you say. Many profess to be His, but are not. This is what Christ is speaking about.

This is how we are justified before men. By our works. But even then one can do well, but still do them for the wrong reasons.

Can a 5-point Arminian be a Christian? THis was the original question. I say yes.
Joseph

Jesus didn't say anything about adding circumcision to salvation...does that mean we can have saving faith and still do that?

Originally posted by The Lamb
but you also say that is one believes any point of the remons, they are unregenerate?

Now you are mis-representing me and I don't appreciate it. Luther didn't believe in Limited Atonement, but he also (assumadly) didn't trust himself to save him.

I have tried to make this as simple as possible, one must believe that Christ ALONE saves sinners. If they add anything to this, not matter how small, they are under the obligation to keep the entire law for justification.

Isaiah 53:11
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

 

[Poimen]

Originally posted by kevin.carroll
I should have read the rest of the thread, as now I see where Jeff was going with his arguments!

Agreed, Arminianism in its purest form denies grace. And yet, most Arminans do not give much thought to the logical conclusions of their own positions. I doubt seriously that God holds this against them. It is one thing to attempt to establish ones own righteousness in a brazen rejection of grace. It is another entirely to be guilty of not thinking deeply enough about grace.

Well said. And isn't it true that the teachers are more responsible than their pupils?

James 3:1 "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."

In other words actually knowing what Calvinism and Arminianism teaches and still refusing to believe in Reformed soteriology will end up being more 'troublesome' for those who are ignorant and have been taught nothing else their whole lives.
Having said that there are many Arminians who believe that we are saved by grace AND works. The worst of them are really no different (in essence) than Rome.

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel

Originally posted by The Lamb
Jeff, I have read the scriptures. And I believe them `100%, I do nto know what the eternal justification thread has to do with this. But moving forward.

You are still not addressing an important issue.

Those whom Christ physically encountered and saved did nto have access to the Holy Writ as we do today.

Did blind bart know of the 5 points?

You insist that noone is saying one must believe in the 5 points of cal to be saved, and rightly so, but you also say that is one believes any point of the remons, they are unregenerate? How can this be? Is this saying, :I may not know what the truth is, but I know what it is not?"

The encounter with Peter I am speaking of is after His resurrection in Johns account.

Do you love me 3 times Jeff... Nothing else was asked.

I believe Peter was regenerate long before then.

The context of fruits is not exactly what you say. Many profess to be His, but are not. This is what Christ is speaking about.

This is how we are justified before men. By our works. But even then one can do well, but still do them for the wrong reasons.

Can a 5-point Arminian be a Christian? THis was the original question. I say yes.
Joseph

Jesus didn't say anything about adding circumcision to salvation...does that mean we can have saving faith and still do that?

Originally posted by The Lamb
but you also say that is one believes any point of the remons, they are unregenerate?

Now you are mis-representing me and I don't appreciate it. Luther didn't believe in Limited Atonement, but he also (assumadly) didn't trust himself to save him.

I have tried to make this as simple as possible, one must believe that Christ ALONE saves sinners. If they add anything to this, not matter how small, they are under the obligation to keep the entire law for justification.

Isaiah 53:11
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

I agree with you Jeff. i did not mean to misrepresent you. I just find absolutely nothign good coming from a thread like this. I disagree with YOUR assesment. But you are free to argue as you wish

I will again point you to Whitefield/ Wesley. Not once did Whitefield ever question Wesleys Love for Christ.

I much rather stay there. Perhaps I have not been chosen to have the spirit to decide if an arminian is saved. I am much more concerned with Glorifying God. And fail there miserably anway!!!!!!!!


Joseph

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by poimen

Originally posted by kevin.carroll
I should have read the rest of the thread, as now I see where Jeff was going with his arguments!

Agreed, Arminianism in its purest form denies grace. And yet, most Arminans do not give much thought to the logical conclusions of their own positions. I doubt seriously that God holds this against them. It is one thing to attempt to establish ones own righteousness in a brazen rejection of grace. It is another entirely to be guilty of not thinking deeply enough about grace.

Well said. And isn't it true that the teachers are more responsible than their pupils?

James 3:1 "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."

In other words actually knowing what Calvinism and Arminianism teaches and still refusing to believe in Reformed soteriology will end up being more 'troublesome' for those who are ignorant and have been taught nothing else their whole lives.
Having said that there are many Arminians who believe that we are saved by grace AND works. The worst of them are really no different (in essence) than Rome.

Yes, you make a good point. But I for one do not wish to try to argue that Wesley or even Arminius are in hell. I just got done reading a good deal of Arminius for a project I had to do. He sounds pretty Calvinistic in some spots!

 

[Augusta]

Here's a question.

Would God leave His elect in error?

Can an elect person who is given "the mind of Christ" not see the truth when it is shown him?

1 Cor 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?"[e] But we have the mind of Christ.

Not only is our election and regeneration the work of God but also our knowledge is the work of God. He is the one who upholds us and teaches us. He would not have us "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting." He equips us with all we need.

Ephesian 4:11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.


He teaches his elect by His Spirit. If the Truth is now in us our minds are renewed, we can no longer walk in the old way.

Ephesians 4:
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of[d] the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;

20 But you have not so learned Christ,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

I know many on this board who were led out of arminian churches by outside teaching. Not by anything they heard in said churches. My husband and I got to where we were just sickened by our church and could no longer stand to sit under the teaching and worship there. This was a church who demonstrably: raising hands, clapping, weeping, etc. proclaimed the name of Jesus and yet it was noxious to our ears and eyes. What changed us? What opened our eyes and ears? God did not leave us in that church. I went there my whole life almost. We were both baptized and married there. It was our church home. We would never have left unless compelled to by outside forces. And compelled we were.

I just can't see God leaving his elect who are precious to him in that kind of false teaching. He wants His elect to worship him in spirit and in truth. He is the one who grows us up in Him through trial and suffering. He sanctifies us. He would not leave us in darkness.

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by Augusta
Here's a question.

Would God leave His elect in error?

Can an elect person who is given "the mind of Christ" not see the truth when it is shown him?

1 Cor 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?"[e] But we have the mind of Christ.

Not only is our election and regeneration the work of God but also our knowledge is the work of God. He is the one who upholds us and teaches us. He would not have us "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting." He equips us with all we need.

Ephesian 4:11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.


He teaches his elect by His Spirit. If the Truth is now in us our minds are renewed, we can no longer walk in the old way.

Ephesians 4:
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of[d] the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;

20 But you have not so learned Christ,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

I know many on this board who were led out of arminian churches by outside teaching. Not by anything they heard in said churches. My husband and I got to where we were just sickened by our church and could no longer stand to sit under the teaching and worship there. This was a church who demonstrably: raising hands, clapping, weeping, etc. proclaimed the name of Jesus and yet it was noxious to our ears and eyes. What changed us? What opened our eyes and ears? God did not leave us in that church. I went there my whole life almost. We were both baptized and married there. It was our church home. We would never have left unless compelled to by outside forces. And compelled we were.

I just can't see God leaving his elect who are precious to him in that kind of false teaching. He wants His elect to worship him in spirit and in truth. He is the one who grows us up in Him through trial and suffering. He sanctifies us. He would not leave us in darkness.

I believe Luther held on to some of Rome. So this question is unanswerable.

The elect will know whom they believe. Christ, the SOn of the Living God!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Arch2k]

2 Thess 2:10b-12 - They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[Arch2k]

In regards to the gospel, Luther believed the exact opposite of Rome. Not all truth is the gospel.

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
In regards to the gospel, Luther believed the exact opposite of Rome. Not all truth is the gospel.

Luther had some stain of Baotismal Regeneration left in him.

As an aside, does Eschatollogy fall into what one believes could be wrong?

If I hold to a rapture, but believe in Sov grace, am I believing a flase Gospel? Because the end times is part of the Gospel

 

[Mrs.SolaFide]

Originally posted by The Lamb Because the end times is part of the Gospel

How?

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by MissSolaFide

Originally posted by The Lamb Because the end times is part of the Gospel

How?

How?

You do not consider end times as part of the Gospel? That God will gather His elect?

This is part of the good news

 

[Preach]

Traci,
I appreciate your question. It is quite challenging. Would God leave His elect in false teaching? Well, at least from one perspective, it seems that He absoulutely does (if we are talking about the Arminian system). It seems that the overwhelming majority of Christians in the United Staes are Arminian.

 

[Preach]

St. Augustine believed in baptismal regeneration. Moreover, he denied the doctrine of assurance. He thought that any person who could know of their assurance must be a prideful person (unlesss they received a special revelation from heaven). For the great Augustine, pride is built into assurance.
"In Christ",
Bobby

 

[Arch2k]

Paul didn't include eschatology in the gospel "proper":

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 "“ Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you , unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"¦

The gospel Paul speaks of is that "by which also you are saved." There is a difference between believing some false doctrines and rejecting Christ Alone for salvation. Study the gospel. Study saving faith. You can not trust in yourself to save you"¦if you do, you will get exactly what you believe in"¦."As a man believes in his heart, so is he."

Matt 7:22-23 - "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

All of these who stand before God are appealing to their own acts, something of which they have to boast of. David on the other hand appeals to something completely OUTSIDE of himself:

Psalm 71:16 "“ I will come with the mighty deeds of the Lord GOD; I will make mention of Your righteousness, Yours alone.

If God were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, and you appeal to ANYTHING you have done, INCLUDING anything you believe"¦.he will say DEPART FROM ME!! We must appeal to the Lamb of God, whose righteousness is perfect, and clothes our sinfulness so that we may endure the presence and perfect justice of the Father.

 

[Puritanhead]

"Maybe"

The Apostle Paul said he was saved when he "took heed to sound doctrine" among other propositions.

I've had people purport that they discern whose saved by perceiving their joy or just talking to them... but I don't have a magic device called an "electometer" nor I am I a discerner of hearts, so I am hardly emboldened to make such presumptions or pronouncements.

5-point Arminianism is bad theology, so I just say "perhaps" or "maybe." I will bluntly say that there are strains of Arminianism that seem to be so in bondage to a system of works-righteousness, legalism and a cult of will-worship-- that there salvation is indeed in question. Arminianism is essentially Romanism stripped of it's sacramental and liturgical excesses.

[Edited on 4-27-2005 by Puritanhead]

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Paul didn't include eschatology in the gospel "proper":

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 "“ Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you , unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"¦

The gospel Paul speaks of is that "by which also you are saved." There is a difference between believing some false doctrines and rejecting Christ Alone for salvation. Study the gospel. Study saving faith. You can not trust in yourself to save you"¦if you do, you will get exactly what you believe in"¦."As a man believes in his heart, so is he."

Matt 7:22-23 - "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

All of these who stand before God are appealing to their own acts, something of which they have to boast of. David on the other hand appeals to something completely OUTSIDE of himself:

Psalm 71:16 "“ I will come with the mighty deeds of the Lord GOD; I will make mention of Your righteousness, Yours alone.

If God were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, and you appeal to ANYTHING you have done, INCLUDING anything you believe"¦.he will say DEPART FROM ME!! We must appeal to the Lamb of God, whose righteousness is perfect, and clothes our sinfulness so that we may endure the presence and perfect justice of the Father.

Paul spoke very much on the end times Jeff. Very much

SO if one believes 1 cor 15 then they are saved. Nothing in their of arminian doctrine or calvinistic doctrine.

 

[turmeric]

You are making yourself a moving target, Lamb. This started out with a question whether you can be saved & believe in the Rapture, now it's whether you believe I Cor. 15! There is no such thing as a Christian who doesn't believe in Christ's return, unless said individual had a particularly bad catechist, and the Holy Spirit will fix that.

P.S. Of course I believe in the Rapture! Paul mentioned it in his letters to the Thessalonians, the Greek phrase translated is "caught up". I hope my salvation doesn't depend on knowing for sure just when this will occur!

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by turmeric
You are making yourself a moving target, Lamb. This started out with a question whether you can be saved & believe in the Rapture, now it's whether you believe I Cor. 15! There is no such thing as a Christian who doesn't believe in Christ's return, unless said individual had a particularly bad catechist, and the Holy Spirit will fix that.

P.S. Of course I believe in the Rapture! Paul mentioned it in his letters to the Thessalonians, the Greek phrase translated is "caught up". I hope my salvation doesn't depend on knowing for sure just when this will occur!

That is my point Meg. I am asserting that end times is part of the Gospel. Many reformers deny a rapture, so does that leave you believing a false Gospel?

Paul speaks very clearly on Christs return and So did Christ Himself.



Joseph

 

[The Lamb]

Here is something I posted in another thread fro Herman Hoeksema.

taken from the January 2, 1919 issue of the Banner:

"You know, a Calvinist (excuse the term; I am not any too fond of it myself. Never do I use it if I can help it. I don´t think I have used it a half dozen times from the pulpit, which is not very frequent in three years and a half), I say a Calvinist is after all a distinctive Christian. Not all Christians are Calvinists. Mark, I say: "˜not all Christians are Calvinists.´ They may be Christians all right. Sure! Dear children of God, with whom I love to shake hands. I don´t believe that there is a Calvinist that denies this. I don´t think that there is a Calvinist who maintains that the Calvinists are the only Christians. And those who love to waste paper (and that in this time when paper is so valuable!) by fighting against Calvinists who maintain that they are the only Christians on earth, are fighting a shadow, a product of their own imagination. No, but I claim that a Calvinist is a Christian of a distinctive type, with distinctive principles and views, in distinction, namely, from other Christians. Never let any method of reasoning lead you to the belief that all Christians are Calvinists, for then things will be getting so dark, that you lose all power to distinguish. The Methodist is a good sincere Christian, all right. Of course he is! A dear brother. But he is not a Calvinist. The same is true of the Anabaptist, the Lutheran, etc. All together they constitute the church of Jesus Christ on earth, as long as they confess that Jesus is the Christ. But within that large circle there are different shades and forms of faith, and the Calvinist also maintains his own distinctive world and life view in their midst. Now, what I mean to say is that to maintain your distinctive character as a Calvinistic Christian, you must not merely be able to discern clearly what distinguishes you from the rest, but you must have the courage of your conviction such as can be the fruit only of the faith in the Word of God. Only the conviction that our form of faith is the purest expression of Scripture (again, mark, I do not say: the only form or expression) can give us the courage to refuse amalgamation. And therefore, it is necessary, that we are conscious of the relation between our Reformed Faith and the Word of God."


May by Gods grace, anyone who believes that Heavan will consist of only those who profess our doctrnes be crushed and humbled at the feet of Our Gracious Savior.


Joseph

 

[Augusta]

There are many reformed churches that are Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, and even Anglican that would call themselves calvinists. Their various creeds and confessions, the book of common prayer, the WCF, the 29 articles of the Anglican church all uphold the doctrines of grace. Not that there aren't liberal versions of all these churches that don't pay much attention to their own creed and confessions anymore. I don't think calvinism is a distinct kind of christian. I believe as Spurgeon, a baptist, believes that a calvinist is shorthand for biblical christianity. There was even a methodist on the White Horse Inn that is the professor at some college I can't remember who was a calvinist.

[Edited on 4-27-2005 by Augusta]

 

[Arch2k]

Joseph,

You have been on the offensive this entire time - now it's my turn (and yes I will use the same arguments you present to me against your own position-but not because they are valid).

1) Prove from Jesus' encounters that Arminians are regenerate.
2) I want to see scripture (not quotes from others) that shows a person can believe in something other than Christ ALONE for salvation and still be regenerate.
3) Show me where a person doesn't have to believe in Eschetology.
4) What must a person assent to (if anything) to be justified in the sight of God?
5) Is there such a thing as a non-saving faith?
6) Are we to judge this?
7) If not, are we to allow heretics in the church, as long as they perform outwardly good deeds.
8) If someone denies that Christ comes in the flesh, would you let them into your house?

Your turn - convince ME

P.S. I am not advocating anything from this post, simply using fallacious reasoning to prove that the reasoning IS fallacious. I am not saying I believe anything necessarily from points 1-8.

 

[Ravens]

Here's my two cents, and it ain't much.

I think its a bit tenuous to argue what God would or wouldn't do, at least if we place it in a certain time frame. I suppose this is a subjective argument, but most people on this board probably remember the time of their conversion (if there was such a definite time), the actions of God in their life, and the progressive illumination of Scripture by the Spirit long before they came to an understanding of the doctrines of grace. Some Christians might come to Reformed theology in one year, some in six, some in fifteen, some maybe longer. I suppose its passe, but the thief on the cross was one of God's elect, and God waited till the last hour of his life to reveal even the person of Christ to him.

Secondly, I would agree that a lot, though not all, of Arminian thinking is simply fuzzy and contorted. Every Christian knows that they were justified by faith; and most Arminians even speak of "God turning me around, God getting ahold of me, chasing me down, opening my eyes, etc." even if they deny the full import of those statements in their systematic understanding. So I would suppose some of them, when they argue that a man must do something, are confused, and trying to say that man actually does believe, and must believe. Which we agree with. Its just the origin and cause of the belief that is debated. I also look at how I am similar to Arminians. Most Arminians believe they must "do something" to stay saved, but I myself, when struggling with besetting sins, or even in my routine Christian life, have times of healthy questioning, and recall that a true faith naturally births good works.

I would side with Sproul when he said they were saved by a felicitous inconsistency. I'm very cautious about drawing the circle so tight that we exclude every Christian from Chrysostom to the later Melanchthon to Lewis or Zacharias who isn't a full-fledged, card carrying Calvinist.

That being said, I obviously agree that Arminianism is tragic, God-dishonoring poison, or I wouldn't be a member of this board. I just question whether we can make such statements. But perhaps I'm entirely too subjective.