dlowrie290
Puritan Board Freshman
(Sorry if this isn't the correct forum for this. I'll be glad to move it if so.)
Greetings All,
I hope someone can give me some guidance on this. I am trying to work my way through John 6:22-70 and am currently on v29. I have a few commentaries that I'm using to guide me (I don't want to take any theological off-ramps LOL) primarily John Calvin's Commentary on John.
So here is the issue...
I read in v29, "Jesus answered them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'" ESV
Immediately I read this to say that believing in Jesus, whom God has sent, is the work of God.
I look at the Greek from my NA27/UBS4 text and it renders "This is the work of God" as "τοῦτο ἐστιν τὸ ἔργον τοῦ θεοῦ".
τοῦ θεοῦ is in the genitive case making it either descriptive or showing possession, either way I think the ESV got it right with "This is the work OF God". This leads me to conclude that for the believer, God has done a work so that the believer could believe (have faith) and would seem to be consistent with Eph 2:8-9. God works so that you are able to believe, you would believe, and continue believing.
Then I pop over to Calvin's commentary on the verse and read this...
"The work of God is this. They had spoken of works Christ reminds them of one work, that is, faith; by which he means that all that men undertake without faith is vain and useless, but that faith alone is sufficient, because this alone does God require from us, that we believe For there is here an implied contrast between faith and the works and efforts of men; as if he had said, Men toil to no purpose, when they endeavor to please God without faith, because, by running, as it were, out of the course, they do not advance towards the goal. This is a remarkable passage, showing that, though men torment themselves wretchedly throughout their whole life, still they lose their pains, if they have not faith in Christ as the rule of their life. Those who infer from this passage that faith is the gift of God are mistaken; for Christ does not now show what God produces in us, but what he wishes and requires from us.
But we may think it strange that God approves of nothing but faith alone; for the love of our neighbor ought not to be despised, and the other exercises of religion do not lose their place and honor. So then, though faith may hold the highest rank, still other works are not superfluous. The reply is easy; for faith does not exclude either the love of our neighbor or any other good work, because it contains them all within itself. Faith is called the only work of God, because by means of it we possess Christ, and thus become the sons of God, so that he governs us by his Spirit. So then, because Christ does not separate faith from its fruits, we need not wonder if he make it to be the first and the last. (140)
That you believe in him whom he hath sent. What is the import of the word believe, we have explained under the Third Chapter. It ought always to be remembered that, in order to have a full perception of the power of faith, we must understand what Christ is, in whom we believe, and why he was given to us by the Father. It is idle sophistry, under the pretext of this passage, to maintain that we are justified by works, if faith justifies, because it is likewise called a work First, it is plain enough that Christ does not speak with strict accuracy, when he calls faith a work, just as Paul makes a comparison between the law of faith and the law of works, (Rom 3:27.) Secondly, when we affirm that men are not justified by works, we mean works by the merit of which men may obtain favor with God. Now faith brings nothing to God, but, on the contrary, places man before God as empty and poor, that he may be filled with Christ and with his grace. It is, therefore, if we may be allowed the expression, a passive work, to which no reward can be paid, and it bestows on man no other righteousness than that which he receives from Christ."
Is Calvin saying that from this verse, in and of itself, you cannot derive that faith is the gift of God? If that is the case I might feel a little bit better, although I'm not sure that I would necessarily agree with him. It also looks like Calvin is saying that, (again, from this passage alone) it is merely the WILL of God "that (we) believe in Him whom He has sent", but I don't see how that works; not that it's not true, I just don't get it from this verse. To me the plain reading of the text is that God works belief into believers. Does He will that ALL men believe? In the sense that He wills that we don't lie, steal, or murder, I believe that He does will all men to believe and even commands it (just as with lying/stealing/murdering). I just don't get that from this text. I could be wrong though.
Calvin also seems to be defining faith as a "passive work", but that isn't what I've understood faith to be. The idea of a passive work sounds like something an Arminian would say to try and defend his synergism as not being a work. Am I off base here? Is the Reformed definition of faith to mean that it is something that is a passive work that we do apart from God, and being passive it therefore merits no favor with God so that the doctrine of Unconditional Election can stand? It seems that this is Calvin's assertion. Again, I could be mistaken.
I read John Gill and he says this about v29...
"The main and principal one, and which is well pleasing in his sight; and without which it is impossible to please him; and without which no work whatever is a good work; and this is of the operation of God, which he himself works in men; it is not of themselves, it is the pure gift of God:
I'm very confused.
Please help!!!
Thanks for any and all assistance with this.
Daniel
Greetings All,
I hope someone can give me some guidance on this. I am trying to work my way through John 6:22-70 and am currently on v29. I have a few commentaries that I'm using to guide me (I don't want to take any theological off-ramps LOL) primarily John Calvin's Commentary on John.
So here is the issue...
I read in v29, "Jesus answered them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'" ESV
Immediately I read this to say that believing in Jesus, whom God has sent, is the work of God.
I look at the Greek from my NA27/UBS4 text and it renders "This is the work of God" as "τοῦτο ἐστιν τὸ ἔργον τοῦ θεοῦ".
τοῦ θεοῦ is in the genitive case making it either descriptive or showing possession, either way I think the ESV got it right with "This is the work OF God". This leads me to conclude that for the believer, God has done a work so that the believer could believe (have faith) and would seem to be consistent with Eph 2:8-9. God works so that you are able to believe, you would believe, and continue believing.
Then I pop over to Calvin's commentary on the verse and read this...
"The work of God is this. They had spoken of works Christ reminds them of one work, that is, faith; by which he means that all that men undertake without faith is vain and useless, but that faith alone is sufficient, because this alone does God require from us, that we believe For there is here an implied contrast between faith and the works and efforts of men; as if he had said, Men toil to no purpose, when they endeavor to please God without faith, because, by running, as it were, out of the course, they do not advance towards the goal. This is a remarkable passage, showing that, though men torment themselves wretchedly throughout their whole life, still they lose their pains, if they have not faith in Christ as the rule of their life. Those who infer from this passage that faith is the gift of God are mistaken; for Christ does not now show what God produces in us, but what he wishes and requires from us.
But we may think it strange that God approves of nothing but faith alone; for the love of our neighbor ought not to be despised, and the other exercises of religion do not lose their place and honor. So then, though faith may hold the highest rank, still other works are not superfluous. The reply is easy; for faith does not exclude either the love of our neighbor or any other good work, because it contains them all within itself. Faith is called the only work of God, because by means of it we possess Christ, and thus become the sons of God, so that he governs us by his Spirit. So then, because Christ does not separate faith from its fruits, we need not wonder if he make it to be the first and the last. (140)
That you believe in him whom he hath sent. What is the import of the word believe, we have explained under the Third Chapter. It ought always to be remembered that, in order to have a full perception of the power of faith, we must understand what Christ is, in whom we believe, and why he was given to us by the Father. It is idle sophistry, under the pretext of this passage, to maintain that we are justified by works, if faith justifies, because it is likewise called a work First, it is plain enough that Christ does not speak with strict accuracy, when he calls faith a work, just as Paul makes a comparison between the law of faith and the law of works, (Rom 3:27.) Secondly, when we affirm that men are not justified by works, we mean works by the merit of which men may obtain favor with God. Now faith brings nothing to God, but, on the contrary, places man before God as empty and poor, that he may be filled with Christ and with his grace. It is, therefore, if we may be allowed the expression, a passive work, to which no reward can be paid, and it bestows on man no other righteousness than that which he receives from Christ."
Is Calvin saying that from this verse, in and of itself, you cannot derive that faith is the gift of God? If that is the case I might feel a little bit better, although I'm not sure that I would necessarily agree with him. It also looks like Calvin is saying that, (again, from this passage alone) it is merely the WILL of God "that (we) believe in Him whom He has sent", but I don't see how that works; not that it's not true, I just don't get it from this verse. To me the plain reading of the text is that God works belief into believers. Does He will that ALL men believe? In the sense that He wills that we don't lie, steal, or murder, I believe that He does will all men to believe and even commands it (just as with lying/stealing/murdering). I just don't get that from this text. I could be wrong though.
Calvin also seems to be defining faith as a "passive work", but that isn't what I've understood faith to be. The idea of a passive work sounds like something an Arminian would say to try and defend his synergism as not being a work. Am I off base here? Is the Reformed definition of faith to mean that it is something that is a passive work that we do apart from God, and being passive it therefore merits no favor with God so that the doctrine of Unconditional Election can stand? It seems that this is Calvin's assertion. Again, I could be mistaken.
I read John Gill and he says this about v29...
"The main and principal one, and which is well pleasing in his sight; and without which it is impossible to please him; and without which no work whatever is a good work; and this is of the operation of God, which he himself works in men; it is not of themselves, it is the pure gift of God:
I'm very confused.
Please help!!!
Thanks for any and all assistance with this.
Daniel