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Discussion in 'Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace' started by JM, May 18, 2009.
Getting kicked out of hearth and home isn't a picnic.
The Lord warned not to lose our first love. I think many are "talked out" of expressing there full love and witness for Christ because the do not do "witnessing" perfectly. For example, I know that I have been told that I an too confrontational when I feel I am simply explaining the truth about Rome or Election or why I feel Clark Pennock is a wolf..
Calvinists do not have a monopoly on vitriol. All one needs do is to listen to people such as Ergun Caner rant...
Yes, I think we can get too "passionate" about such things. However, if you can discuss subjects like the sovereignty of God, with complete emotional detachment, I believe there is something wrong with you. Paul never minced words with those who were teaching error: neither did Jesus say "Yea, sir, you have a right to your opinion..."
The fact is, when people hold certain beliefs, they are impugning God's character. We SHOULD get upset about this, and defend truth. This does not mean we call people names, but neither do we softball truth.
Again, this is way off topic, but in the White article, he states that the Williams departure was mutual - in fact, the Puritans were willing to give him a good sum of money (i.e. "severance package" from a corporate perspective) to get a ship back to England. Instead, Williams opted for Rhode Island. He states that even after Williams' departure, John Winthrop still continued to write him, seeking reconciliation, but Williams would have none of it.
Try to get the entire article and read it. Go to the Massachusetts historical archives, where he got his source documentation, and try to prove him wrong.
WE are to "contend for the FAITH"...and at times that means getting angry...but "sin (ing) not"...I can AND do "go-off" on so-called "christians", and will continue to be ....ME...and if people don't like it, then maybe they should explain what "be angry and sin not" means in there particular "world".
I have and do converse with MANY unbelievers; both "professing (a) Christ, and others TOTALLY denying the existence of ANY God what-so-ever...and I have dealt emotionally with BOTH...some need a "tongue lashing", most need compassion...
Ecclesiasties states that there is a time and a place for everything, EVEN killing...not that I aim to physically kill anyone. God will deal with that! "My word is as a burning fire; and a hammer that breaketh the rock to pieces". (not a perfect quote?)
It is a shame that many get STUPID with there Intelligence...(which is not their own), but to say it isn't appropriate, AT TIMES, to get angry against THE LIE, is to be ignorant of the Scriptures...
What of "contend for the faith..."??? and other such Words in the Holy Writ against those that would tear apart the Lord's church if they were allowed???
Does that mean INSTANTLY...BLAST...someone? NO! of course not...but as I stated previously, there IS a time and a place for being angry. I don't believe that anyone posting here would just "go-off" on someone straight-away...yet I don't believe anyone with a responsiblity over a congregation would do EVERYTHING they possibley could, including getting angry, to run off THE LIE...and I do hope that "you" would...otherwise, I have some anger to spout towards "you" right now.
Be real!!! Contend for the faith, firstly and in ernest, with all compassion and loving kindness toward the person in discussion with you, but NOT at the expense of those who are "weaker in the faith".
I appreciate this thread, because it reminds me, to keep all things in subjection to the Spirit of God, and to realize, that not ALL have faith...
But, there is a difference between those who know NOTHING of Christ, and those who PROFFER a FALSE Christ...
It CAN be frustrating, and that can lead to HARSH debate! But simpley remember, BE ANGRY and sin NOT!
Both Quotes very very true. And this is from someone coming from the background of someone who used to fight all day, tooth and nail against the DOG, even though all my boys that I fellowship with except for a few were reformed. But now by God's Grace and Him allowing me to pray and study the matter I def lean wayyyyyyy more towards the DOG, even though I'm not fully there yet, there's still some hard pills for me to swallow.
But some things that I have noticed is not all, but some Calvinist, would view those who aren't reformed, as people who have no idea what there talking about, and can't be right about possibly anything they say, and it seemed like the Calvinist thought intellectually he was on a much higher ladder then the Armeniest. Even now that I'm basically reformed, I still see Calvinist mock Armeniest, mock the way an Armeniest must pray and present The Gospel. Which I disagree with, because even when I was an Armeniest I didn't pray nor present The Gospel the way Calvinist depicted, so it came off as prideful, and kind of poking fun to me, kind of a way to make the Armeniest look dumb and stupid to the Calvinist community. That's why I think alot of Calvinist can think that way of the Armeniest. So if an Armeniest ran into a Calvinist that thought like that, because of what they've heard someone teach about and Armeniest, or watched in a video, then he would automatically place that depiction on him, which if an Armeniest doesn't hold to that, (Like I didn't) it can cause him to feel very disrespected, because the reformed can have a pre-conceived notion of him that's completely false, and mis-understood.
But I don't rule out the fact that bad theology has to be corrected, that is a MUST, but the way you do it, is also a BIG deal, it has to be done in Love. I've had alot of friends that were Calvinist, and when I didn't hold to the DOG, it was like I and a few of my other brothers who didn't hold to that were ex-communicated from them, and it hurt us so bad, even to the point where some cried, because these were brothers we've known and were in ministry with for years. But by the Grace of GOD, he used a brother I know named Rashad, who is very sound in his theology and doctrine, to answer all my questions and challenges to the DOG. He never forced it on me, he would ask me questions from time to time, and when I started really searching it out, praying and studying it myself, he was (And still is) Very patient with me to answer any and all my questions, in love and sincerity, and that was BIG help. Some other people I knew who were reformed (Exception for some) it seemed like they wanted nothing to do with me at all...like I was a castaway or something, and I see others who come at Armeniest, like there just completely stupid..and don't know anything about the bible at all. Trust me they can sense that, and it can actually turn them away from adhearing to the DOG, then turn them towards it, that's why alot of Arminiest label some who are reformed as prideful. Armeniest aren't off the hook though, I recently ran into one, and they seemed to be so prideful, and absolutely hated all Calvinist, which I thought was horrible, the response that they gave to the reformed dripped with pride..so the newely reformed arent the only ones, it's some Armeniest out there, that just view Calvinist as legalistic jerks who have a John Calvin and C.H Spurgeon shrine in the Corner of there room, which my friend is absolutely not true. It was the genuine Love and patience, of a brother of mine that GOD used as just one of many means, to actually open me up more to the DOG.
1. I hold that it cannot be a punishment to be banished from Massachusetts.
2. We who have been around Reformed circles for a while know that it is neither vitriol nor anger. We call it POLEMICS.
Well I changed my Picture because I realize that I have a lot in common with Ralph Cramden. "I GOTTA BIG MOUTH" The Author of My Faith
But God is working on that
I would agree that from my limited experience Many Calvinists seem to be meaner then a billy goat. Being new to reformed theology I have made my fair share of mistakes in saying terminologies that might sound "PENTECOSTAL" and have had some rebuke me severely and correct me without the least bit of tenderness and compassion. But then I also know some arminian brothers who are as sweet as honey until you cross the line and they will turn on you in a heartbeat. People are people no matter what doctrinal stance you hold. The Flesh of a Calvinist is just as evil as the Flesh of an Arminian.
I watched a video on a debate between calvinists and arminians. Two professors were from the Baptist Seminary in Louisville, KY and the two arminian's were from Asbury Theological Seminary. The men from Louisville were full of Grace and spoke lovingly to the Arminian brothers. One of the men from Asbury was very sarcastic and condesending.
I dropped out of a seminary this year because I could not take the doctrine any longer. Very liberal and unbiblical. I pissed a few people off because I spoke out in light of my new found stance on Calvinism. I kind of gave them both barrels and now I see I need to be more loving and tenderhearted. God is working.
I GOT A BIG MOUTH!
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OPPS my picture did not change
Void of the Spirit
Again, I was taught that Calvinists were those people who rejected the Holy Spirit and Worshiped the Bible instead of worshipping Jesus. They had a Christianity that fell short by Twelve inches, the distance between the heart and the head. My Pastor was ANTI-Calvinist and had not problem stating it from the pulpit. Though he never said the name we all knew who he was talking about when he preached against those who are into dead doctrine and who are void of the Spirit. He would say they are mean spirited, carnal, cold, callous, full of head knowledge. He would use the scripture "you search the scriptures to find life, and the speak of me but you will not come to me that you may have life" (paraphrased), you know the verse.
But my pastor had no problem accepting the "Pastor of the Year Award" from one of the Christian Education Institutions that mostly (and I say mostly not all the way) held to a calvinistic position.
BUT, In spite of the downfalls and Theological Train Wrecks that are so prominent within the Arminian Circles, there still are many Arminian Preachers who have preached with power the Cross of Christ. We have some Great Men of God in that Camp so I am not ready to cast them all aside as not knowing anything.
Let the TULIP Inquisition begin........
Last part of the quote is so true.. I just still know, and see alot of Calvinist who push them all off like they don't know absolutely anything, and like there dumb biblically, which causes alot I see to look down at them, like there inferior...which I don't think that's Chrislike at all, it's pride. There are some that still preach with power of the Cross of Christ, we act like we forgot..like if there not reformed they don't and can't...not true..
**Note, not talking about Calvanist in General, just talking about some I've seen.***
And I think that's what makes people who run into or see calvanist have a pre-conceived notion that there prideful and arrogent...which I would say is absolutely not true. But we can't blame them for seeing some that way, cause even we know some who can be like that, and there's no excuse for it at all. I've seen ppl say it's because of this or because of that, but there really is no justifying it; if it's wrong it's wrong, and even I have fallen short in that area, and been guilty of it. So I pray GOD Truly humbles me.. Seriously.
Arminians and Pentecostals??? They are the same...just as they are Pelagian...S-I-N-N-E-R-S...lost in their UNBELIEF...
What is it that they BELIEVE that saves them? What makes them SAVED?
If you accept them as "bretheren", then you are in thought process that "they are believers going to heaven"...ARE YOU SURE about that???
Is it better to accept a false Christ as your cousin in faith, or is it better that your "BROTHER" know the REAL Christ?
The heart is deceitful above all things...who can KNOW it? Stop whimping out because you need some one on this planet to love you...and appreciate you, as if you were worth it...
Proclaim the True Christ...'for many will come in MY Name saying..." and they will say it well. Where do you draw the line???
What's next? Islam is Christianity, just under a different name?? We all worship the same Christ but just in different ways and understandings??? Sure there will be some MINOR variations...BUT what is MINOR???
I'm getting extremely worried about what is construde as Christianity and what IS Christianity...
Unbelievers ARE NOT our BROTHERS!!!
Figure out what a believer is, then you can embrace them as your KINDRED...
TheFleshProfitethNothing; said "Arminians and Pentecostals??? They are the same...just as they are Pelagian...S-I-N-N-E-R-S...lost in their UNBELIEF..."
I would fear to pronounce all Arminians who live on the earth as categorically lost. Many who now love the doctrines and frequent PB knew and loved Jesus before they knew and loved Reformed teaching.
What is it that they BELIEVE that saves them? What makes them SAVED?
I prefer Who is it that they believe and Who makes them saved
Boxing Match of the Millennium
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The reformational doctrines weren't NEW...nor was the FAITH. Another myth taught by man is that the reformers were revisionaries...but they weren't.
That was Really funny!,Thanks so much for posting it!!
This post by you proves the title of the whole thread.
You are on a dangerous road if you believe all Arminians are going to hell. The Gospel is much simpler than that. Although I believe Calvinism is the purest form of the Christian Faith, I do not believe Arminians are going to hell. I believe Catholicism is mixed up too. However, I expect to see som Catholics in heaven!
That's great right there! Funny!
This kind of thinking is something that makes Calvinism so ugly to those who don't believe it. Wait, actually, you're making Calvinism look ugly even to other Calvinists. I am 100%, without a doubt, to the bone Calvinist, yet your attitude towards our brothers (albeit who hold to poor doctrine) is appalling. Do you not realize that there are Calvinists who are going to hell? There are many Arminians, Pentecostals, etc. who are our brothers and who will be in glory and many Calvinists who never knew Christ. If perfect doctrine were our standard and not the blood of Christ we would be in serious trouble considering the vast majority of Calvinists disagree on doctrinal matters!
I find it interesting that immature behavior is associated with being a "Calvinist". People are sinners. If the kind of behavior described is endemic to being Reformed and the author believes that, in the main, Arminianism breeds loving people then doesn't that indicate that Calvinism itself must do something to these people to make them act this way?
I guess I just don't understand the propensity for our own to ascribe our theology itself as breeding this kind of immaturity and hatred of neighbor. I've even heard Atheists argue that Christianity itself breeds this kind of behavior.
What is being described are not men who consistently believe they are no better than their neighbor and are commanded by a Sovereign God to love that neighbor. What is being described is the Flesh.
This is so true. And quite sad. Calvinism should produce humility.
Of all people, the Calvinist is truely able to say "There but for the grace of God, go I".
How is it that any Christian, especially the Calvinist, can utter anything like the above post by Duane?