Calvinists, Let’s Calm Down

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Skyler

Puritan Board Graduate
One of the things I promised myself when studying Calvinism(aside from not slipping into hyper-Calvinism, which I did anyway by accident) was that I would not engage anyone in debate or discussion on the topic until I could handle it with meekness and humility. The only person I have so engaged thus far is my dad, and that seemed to go over pretty well. But meekness and humility can be really hard when you know you're right. :)
 

Reformed Thomist

Puritan Board Sophomore
So wait... do you guys mean to say that Arminianism is something that you can't beat out of people?

I have a couple in my basement that, I think, are starting to turn...
 

Spinningplates2

Puritan Board Freshman
I have heard for twenty five years that Calvinist are too proud and too loud. I have and will tell people that Calvinist knocking Calvinist is a full time job for some people. We are no more or less loud, stuck up and proud then any other group. I think that it is a self perpetuating myth like the other one that says, "Calvinist don't like to witness because of what they think about Election."
 

Skyler

Puritan Board Graduate
I have heard for twenty five years that Calvinist are too proud and too loud. I have and will tell people that Calvinist knocking Calvinist is a full time job for some people. We are no more or less loud, stuck up and proud then any other group. I think that it is a self perpetuating myth like the other one that says, "Calvinist don't like to witness because of what they think about Election."
Well, I suppose you may be right. However, judging by our doctrines, we should be. We should be the most [truly] humble, meek group of Christians on the face of the earth--if we are consistent with our doctrines.
 

Whitefield

Puritan Board Junior
1 Peter 3:14-16 ESV

But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.
 

R Harris

Puritan Board Sophomore
Liberty's prez, Ergun Caner, is what Josh is referencing:

Q: DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT CALVINISTS ARE WORSE THAN MUSLIMS?

A: Yes, absolutely. For a small portion of these people, just daring to question the Bezian movement is heresy. They will blog and
e-mail incessantly. I call it a "Calvinist Jihad", because just like Muslims, they believe they are defending the honor of their view.
They can discuss nothing else. I have even had a few call for my head! Dr. Falwell and I have laughed about it, because they are so insistent, and they miss the point completely. There are plenty of schools to which the neo-Calvinists can go, but Liberty will be a lighthouse for missions and evangelism to the "whosoever wills". Period. The difference is, Muslims know when to quit - for these guys, it is the only topic about which they can talk.
OK, that ticks even me off!!! As much as I want to opine for tolerance and maturity, there is something about Ergun Caner that can reduce me to a snarling cage-stage Calvinist in about 3 seconds.:soapbox:
Well, given that Dr. Falwell addressed a group of potential new fall students at Liberty in April 2007 just two weeks before his death and pronounced Calvinism to be "heresy" (yes, I saw it on YouTube shortly thereafter), should Dr. Caner expect me to be happy and cheerful about that? Is it ok for him or Dr. Falwell to take cheap shots at Calvinists? I think there is a hypocritical double standard here . . .

We all have different experiences. I have found mine to be one of progressive rejection.

First, a believer. Rejected by former "friends" who wanted nothing more to do with me.

Second, a five point calvinist. Rejected by fellow Campus Crusaders, who sometimes looked at me like I should be committed to the psych ward (no, I did not communicate my new knowledge with shrill anger.)

Third, covenant theology. Rejected by many who thought the paedobaptism thing to be strange and really heretical - including the very person who spoke the Gospel to me. That one hurt pretty bad.

Fourth, amillenialist, then post-mil. Rejected by Dispensational pre-mils, who now thought I had joined a cult. Amillenialists upset that I had rocked their boat, thinking that amillenialism was the final frontier of eschatology.

Fifth, RPW. Rejected by fellow PCAers and OPCers who thought I had degenerated into "reformed legalism."

Sixth, national confessionalism/theoretical theonomist. Now rejected by just about everybody.

So, as I embarked on my journey of Scripture study, I progressively saw myself more and more lonely. It's kind of scary, actually. So, I go back and retrace my steps - have I missed something? Where have I gone wrong? And after the re-study, I am still here. This raises more questions for me for which I have no answers this side of the veil.

For me, I have not had so much of a problem of pride as I do puzzlement and frustration.
 

Poimen

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Fourth, amillenialist, then post-mil. Amillenialists upset that I had rocked their boat, thinking that amillenialism was the final frontier of eschatology.
After reading this I have rejected you. Now you have hit rock bottom.

-----Added 5/18/2009 at 07:47:01 EST-----

So wait... do you guys mean to say that Arminianism is something that you can't beat out of people?

I have a couple in my basement that, I think, are starting to turn...
:lol:
 

Quickened

Puritan Board Senior
I am one of these people that have let my zeal get the best of me at times. I pray that it doesnt happen.

Its hard because when i saw the truth behind the doctrines of grace it seemed "plain as day" to me and I wanted to talk to those (that I discussed bibical things with) about what i had just came across.

Some people just dont see it and I can admit that at times it is frustrating. Especially on the internet. Alot of times folk dont go into these discussions to actually learn or openly discuss scripture. They approach topics as if they need to sift the heresy out of people who disagree with them.

The internet is tough because we have no emotions or body language to go by. Just cold text sometimes warmed by a smiley here and there.

The PB is one of the few places not like that. I am thankful for that
 

awretchsavedbygrace

Puritan Board Sophomore
Anyone ever see Ergun Canor's sermon " why I was predestined never to be a hyper-calvinist". Horrible Sermon! He cant distingish the differences between hyper-calvinism and Calvinism.Dr. James White critiques the whole sermon on youtube.
 

Blue Tick

Puritan Board Graduate
There’s some truth to the matter that newly reforming Calvinists can come across “arrogant”. However, let’s balance this with the fact that new Calvinists are coming into the true gospel and their being freed from works righteousness. Their experiencing what a lot of cultists feel and that’s deception. They feel they’ve been deceived and are angry at the leaders who have taught them poorly. We’ve all heard of the ON FIRE BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN so these new Calvinists in one sense are on fire for the Lord. This raw zeal needs to be nurtured with sound Christian piety and practice.

I would counter that I’ve met plenty of “Evangellies” who are equally if not more arrogant in their works righteousness and super free-willism. Challenge them on Premillenianism, Pretribulationalism or the doctrine of free-will and you will most likely encounter the natural man displaying his hatred of God.
 
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lshepler412

Puritan Board Freshman
I think it is important to note that just because someone claims to be a calvinist or an arminian for that matter, it does not mean that they are actually a christian. I'm currently reading a book by Jonathan Edwards amply called, "Religious Affections". One of the main tenets is that the devil can produce in those who are not saved, essentially an external replica that is found in devout saints. I became a calvinist about a year ago, but it was not until I was what I believe to be a fairly well grounded Christian.

Just remember Calvinist is not necessarily synonymous with a redeemed, elect, sanctified saint of Jesus Christ.
That is a very good point. It reminds me of something I was reading by John Owen about those who are imposters in the faith..."they went out from us because they were not of us". Sorry I can't quite remember where the Scripture is but maybe I John. Anyway, the book by Owen is entitled Apostacy from the Gospel.
 

charliejunfan

Puritan Board Senior
New Calvinists go through the angry period because they are bitter against the teaching they were fed and told to believe. This is why I am/was angry...
 

reformedminister

Puritan Board Sophomore
I have found arrogance in about every group I have encountered. Baptists are proud to be Baptists, and the Pentecostals think they have one up on everyone. However, the most overwhelming stench I have ever come across came from the first Reformed Church I attended. Why? I just can't figure it out. TULIPs usually have a pleasant aroma. :lol:
 

apaleífo̱

Puritan Board Freshman
Ah, I miss the old days when we were all in our ships travelling to the New World and trying to make of ourselves an example to other Christians, rather than just grousing at them all the time. There is much to be said for the differences between hurtful fanaticism and constructive zeal. Perhaps much of the difference between modern Reformed Protestants and the old 16th and 17th-century Reformers has to do with the fact that many of us in America (with the unfortunate exceptions, of course) haven't suffered persecution to the extent that they did; also, the Faith was new, raw, and ground-breaking -- now man has had a chance to make it seem stale and pedantic. Also, in the good old days, everyone who was interested in theology was fiery and, often enough, rather rude. They would have been quite flabbergasted at the delicate sensibilities of our age.

Of course, arrogance is another thing entirely and should be cut down at all times as a thing hateful to the Lord. :judge:
 

Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
Ah, I miss the old days when we were all in our ships travelling to the New World and trying to make of ourselves an example to other Christians, rather than just grousing at them all the time. There is much to be said for the differences between hurtful fanaticism and constructive zeal. Perhaps much of the difference between modern Reformed Protestants and the old 16th and 17th-century Reformers has to do with the fact that many of us in America (with the unfortunate exceptions, of course) haven't suffered persecution to the extent that they did; also, the Faith was new, raw, and ground-breaking -- now man has had a chance to make it seem stale and pedantic. Also, in the good old days, everyone who was interested in theology was fiery and, often enough, rather rude. They would have been quite flabbergasted at the delicate sensibilities of our age.

Of course, arrogance is another thing entirely and should be cut down at all times as a thing hateful to the Lord. :judge:
Sorry, those "good ol' days' didn't exist.

The Quakers were persecuted and Roger Williams was driven out of his area by calvinists. "Christianity" overall is getting more and more tolerant these days as opposed to "the good ol' days"
 

R Harris

Puritan Board Sophomore
" . . . and Roger Williams was driven out of his area by calvinists . . ."
Do you mean Massachusetts or Rhode Island?

The story of Williams being "driven" out of the Massachusetts Bay Colony by those harsh, mean Puritans has been one of the biggest myths perpetrated in American history.

In the Christianity and Civilization Symposium, Volume II, The Failure of the American Baptist Culture, there is an article in the book written by a Harry Dexter White back in 1876, all based on the actual source documentation of what happened back in 1634 - 1638. It portrays a FAR different picture than what the history books of the last 50 years have presented about Williams, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island.

In the same manner, Calvinists often get caricatured by Dispensationalists/arminians in that they claim Calvinists are teaching that Calvin said far more than he actually did regarding TULIP (especially the L), but Paul Helm in Calvin and the Calvinists also dispelled those myths.

Sometimes the amount of ignorance and willful blindness that exists can be astounding.
 

Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
Calvinists need to remember that it is by grace that they have been enabled to receive these doctrines, and if it wasn't for the grace of God they would be Arminians because Arminianism is intellectual sin on the part of often true believers.
 

Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
" . . . and Roger Williams was driven out of his area by calvinists . . ."
Do you mean Massachusetts or Rhode Island?

The story of Williams being "driven" out of the Massachusetts Bay Colony by those harsh, mean Puritans has been one of the biggest myths perpetrated in American history.

In the Christianity and Civilization Symposium, Volume II, The Failure of the American Baptist Culture, there is an article in the book written by a Harry Dexter White back in 1876, all based on the actual source documentation of what happened back in 1634 - 1638. It portrays a FAR different picture than what the history books of the last 50 years have presented about Williams, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island.

In the same manner, Calvinists often get caricatured by Dispensationalists/arminians in that they claim Calvinists are teaching that Calvin said far more than he actually did regarding TULIP (especially the L), but Paul Helm in Calvin and the Calvinists also dispelled those myths.

Sometimes the amount of ignorance and willful blindness that exists can be astounding.

All the history books Ihave read that Roger Williams was expelled from the Mass. bay Colony in 1635.

What's your evidence to the contrary?

-----Added 5/19/2009 at 10:36:24 EST-----

Burrage, Why Was Roger Williams Banished?
 
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