just_grace
Puritan Board Freshman
Thanks Scott
calvinism/ arminianism quotes.....
- Thread starter Formerly At Enmity
- Start date
- Status
Thanks Scott
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
If you agree that God knows the elect ahead of time, then how can you logically believe that Jesus paid for the sins of the non-elect?
Originally posted by just_grace
BTW, I hold to TULIP 99.99999999%I still not convinced as of yet that the parable of the unfaithful servant is not referring to a born again person.
Just trying to get my head around this statement by John ' but also for the sins of the whole world'
Any thoughts about the statement and why he should say it?
Go easy with me
Ancora imparo...
No problem, my brother. I had to wrestle with this one myself.
Much of the argument over the word "world" (Greek: kosmos) has revolved not around 1 John 2:1-2, but around John 3:16. So, for starters, please take a look at this fairly brief article, which shows the many different meanings of "kosmos":
http://www.apuritansmind.com/Arminianism/AWPinkMeaningOfKosmos.htm
(Scott linked to the same article above.)
I believe the word "kosmos" in 1 John 2:1-2 is referring to all the elect everywhere, i.e. the "world of the elect", or at least the "world of believers". John is just saying that Jesus didn't only die for us (Christians in this local area), but for Christians everywhere in the whole world. And this usage is consistent with a proper grammatical usage of the word "world" elsewhere in Scripture.
Of course, I also recommend John Owen's excellent treatment of 1 John 2:1-2. He explains it in great depth. The link for that is also above, already posted by someone else.
Please let me know your thoughts after reading the brief article above regarding the many meanings of "world" in the Bible. Hopefully, that alone will help you see that 1 John 2:1-2 is not talking about "everyone everywhere" like you were thinking.
Your brother in Christ,
Joseph
just_grace
Puritan Board Freshman
Thanks, just read that, seems a very fine line indeed. My own experience of Grace was God riding forth in the chariot of the gospel etc...but I did not yield straight away but over the course of weeks I did eventually get down on my knees, confessed God and that I was a sinner and asked Jesus to come into my life.
What exactly does 'without the grace of God by Christ preventing us' mean? Preventing as stopping us? Or preparing us! The latter I think.
Ancora imparo...
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
Literally, "pre - vent" means "to go before". So "preventing grace" is the grace of God that goes before us, preparing our way to salvation. Praise Him!!!
While you are thinking about preventing grace (a.k.a. prevenient grace), you might want to read this:
http://www.biblelighthouse.com/sovereignty/prevenient.htm
David,
I just want to write you a short note of encouragement to REALLY study the doctrine of Limited Atonement. It seems that you don't want to get "too deep", but I assure you that it is not that bad.
The implications of universal atonement are destructive to the Christian faith. Once one really gets a solid grasp on Limited Atonement, one realizes that it is much more than answering the question "For whom did Christ die?" More specifically, Limited Atonement answers "What did Christ's death ACCOMPLISH?" Did it merely provide an opportunity for salvation as the Arminian thought? Does it merely render the reprobate inexcusable as the Amyraldians (4-pt Calvinists)? I firmly believe that Christ's death accomplishes salvation only for his elect, and the benefits of his work on earth are only for them. That was his purpose.
I have a friend who had similar thoughts as to yours, and in a gentle rebuke, I asked him to read John Owen on the subject before he began to expound his views as true. Please do the same, and I believe that you will be greatly edified!
This is meant to be some words of encouragement to you, because I have come from the "dark side" into the light, and want nothing more than to see you 100% convinced and solid. Please take my words as encouragement, and have a blessed Lord's day.
I just want to write you a short note of encouragement to REALLY study the doctrine of Limited Atonement. It seems that you don't want to get "too deep", but I assure you that it is not that bad.
The implications of universal atonement are destructive to the Christian faith. Once one really gets a solid grasp on Limited Atonement, one realizes that it is much more than answering the question "For whom did Christ die?" More specifically, Limited Atonement answers "What did Christ's death ACCOMPLISH?" Did it merely provide an opportunity for salvation as the Arminian thought? Does it merely render the reprobate inexcusable as the Amyraldians (4-pt Calvinists)? I firmly believe that Christ's death accomplishes salvation only for his elect, and the benefits of his work on earth are only for them. That was his purpose.
I have a friend who had similar thoughts as to yours, and in a gentle rebuke, I asked him to read John Owen on the subject before he began to expound his views as true. Please do the same, and I believe that you will be greatly edified!
This is meant to be some words of encouragement to you, because I have come from the "dark side" into the light, and want nothing more than to see you 100% convinced and solid. Please take my words as encouragement, and have a blessed Lord's day.
just_grace
Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
David,
I just want to write you a short note of encouragement to REALLY study the doctrine of Limited Atonement. It seems that you don't want to get "too deep", but I assure you that it is not that bad.
The implications of universal atonement are destructive to the Christian faith. Once one really gets a solid grasp on Limited Atonement, one realizes that it is much more than answering the question "For whom did Christ die?" More specifically, Limited Atonement answers "What did Christ's death ACCOMPLISH?" Did it merely provide an opportunity for salvation as the Arminian thought? Does it merely render the reprobate inexcusable as the Amyraldians (4-pt Calvinists)? I firmly believe that Christ's death accomplishes salvation only for his elect, and the benefits of his work on earth are only for them. That was his purpose.
I have a friend who had similar thoughts as to yours, and in a gentle rebuke, I asked him to read John Owen on the subject before he began to expound his views as true. Please do the same, and I believe that you will be greatly edified!
This is meant to be some words of encouragement to you, because I have come from the "dark side" into the light, and want nothing more than to see you 100% convinced and solid. Please take my words as encouragement, and have a blessed Lord's day.
Thanks, but I have already said that I do not hold to Universal Atonement, maybe I go deeper than what you think.
I appreciate your tolerance.
I am totally in agreement with what ever Paul and the rest of the Apostles taught. They worked very hard for us. ( for the sake of the Elect ) very interesting words from Paul.
They are the people I look to for my answers.
I believe that people go to the lake of fire... enough said, I also believe that no-one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them.
I believe in the Elect.
I hope to post more, just in from work and have not eaten all day, I am hungry.
Back in a bit.
I am just learning.
BrianBowman
Posting Priviledges Revoked
I think one way to summarize what is said above is this:
On PB we have many folks who are Theology Students at various levels of knowledge and depth. Many (if not most) of us came to our Reformed convictions after varying degrees of frustration with other forms of Christianity rooted in Pelagian/Arminian traditions. The more we examined the Scriptures, the clearer God's Sovereignty became for us. Also, many of us were perhaps involved in "decisional evangelism" using confrontational methods like door knocking and street witnessing where the goal was to see folks pray the "sinner's prayer" and then invite them to Bible Study/Church. Often these efforts were frustrating because we did not understand or acknowledge the role the Holy Spirit plays in regenerating someone *before* they can exercise repentance and faith. Thus the glories of the Reformed faith help us to relax in God's grace, knowing that He alone is the author of salvation and finisher of saving faith.
The bottom line is that Sovereign Grace Election is a pervasive theme in God's Word. However, we don't know who the Elect are; especially those who have not yet professed faith in Christ. In the post-resurrection era, we cannot make any assumptions about who God has elected unto salvation and who He nas not. Therefore, we obey Christ in evangelism, proclaiming the message of the Good News to all people and resting in the Holy Spirit to do the work of regeneration that changes hearts so the gifts of repentance and faith can be received and exercised in the Elect.
[Edited on 8-15-2005 by BrianBowman]
On PB we have many folks who are Theology Students at various levels of knowledge and depth. Many (if not most) of us came to our Reformed convictions after varying degrees of frustration with other forms of Christianity rooted in Pelagian/Arminian traditions. The more we examined the Scriptures, the clearer God's Sovereignty became for us. Also, many of us were perhaps involved in "decisional evangelism" using confrontational methods like door knocking and street witnessing where the goal was to see folks pray the "sinner's prayer" and then invite them to Bible Study/Church. Often these efforts were frustrating because we did not understand or acknowledge the role the Holy Spirit plays in regenerating someone *before* they can exercise repentance and faith. Thus the glories of the Reformed faith help us to relax in God's grace, knowing that He alone is the author of salvation and finisher of saving faith.
The bottom line is that Sovereign Grace Election is a pervasive theme in God's Word. However, we don't know who the Elect are; especially those who have not yet professed faith in Christ. In the post-resurrection era, we cannot make any assumptions about who God has elected unto salvation and who He nas not. Therefore, we obey Christ in evangelism, proclaiming the message of the Good News to all people and resting in the Holy Spirit to do the work of regeneration that changes hearts so the gifts of repentance and faith can be received and exercised in the Elect.
[Edited on 8-15-2005 by BrianBowman]
Athanasius
Puritan Board Freshman
For some rabid Dispensationalist~~Arminian theology:
http://www.faithalone.org/ - holds some interesting articles.
David:
I'd heartily recommend that you John Murray and Ned Stonehouse's paper "The Free Offer of the Gospel". A Limited Atonement does not say that we cannot freely offer the gospel to all, absolutely unencumbered. I think reading this may help with some of the problems you are experiencing:
http://public.csusm.edu/public/guests/rsclark/Free_Offer.html
http://www.faithalone.org/ - holds some interesting articles.
David:
I'd heartily recommend that you John Murray and Ned Stonehouse's paper "The Free Offer of the Gospel". A Limited Atonement does not say that we cannot freely offer the gospel to all, absolutely unencumbered. I think reading this may help with some of the problems you are experiencing:
http://public.csusm.edu/public/guests/rsclark/Free_Offer.html
- Status
Similar threads
