? bout Jesus on the cross...

[3John2]

When Jesus cried out "My God , My God why have you forsaken me..." quoting Psalm 22 was He just simply QUOTING that Psalm or was He "forsaken" by God? Now I don't think He was "forsaken" by God. This is my second question regarding this as I'm having a discussion on this with someone & they adhere to the "Jesus died spiritually" heresy. I qouted 3 scriptures to refute that & they simply asked me "THen when Jesus cried out "my God..." what do you call THAT? If He was separated by God wouldn't that be spiritual "death"? If not what would you call that?".
Anyways I don't adhere to that garbage but what DID happen when Jesus cried out? I suggested in my ignorance & what I used to believe that perhaps He knew He was about to die (physically) & simply wanted to died quoting the Word. I suggested perhaps Psalm 69 could have been another Psalm to quote from. Anyways how would I respond to that statement?

 

[non dignus]

This is a theory I heard from a friend.

He was leading those listening in the 22nd Psalm. It would be similar in our experience to someone beginning, "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want...." and then the rest of the group chiming in to recite the whole psalm.

 

[turmeric]

But He was forsaken - for our sakes. He never spiritually died, but he was under the wrath of the Father that we deserved, otherwise we would spend eternity paying for our sin.

 

[3John2]

OK so this is where it get's "sticky" or perhaps I'm just too ignorant. Define forsaken? The bottom line for me is He DID NOT DIE spiritually so what do you call what He went through? I thought He just bore our sins on Him but not sure HOW I guess. I mean was the pHYSICAL suffering sufficient? In other words Him dying PHYSICALLY sufficient for our redemption?

 

[turmeric]

Here;s my understanding, but hopefully one of our more theologically inclined members will answer; His dying physically satisfied the curse "In the day that you eat it you shall surely die" as well as the curses that fell for not keeping the covenant (Do this & live.) Yet, He bore the wrath that would have damned us forever if He had not died. I think what the Word/Faith people are saying is the Christ became a sinner like a damned soul in hell when He died. He could never have done this and saved us. He is infinite, divine, and holy. He never became anything else. As John Piper says, our sin was on Him, but never in Him.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

It is an extremely difficult thing to conceive of God the Son being forsaken of God the Father. But that is precisely what the Scriptures teach was happening on the cross.

Many if not all of us have experienced the light of God's countenance to be withdrawn from us for our sins (Ps. 42 and many others; WCF 18.4). On the cross Jesus bore the punishment of those sins. Of necessity, God the Father, who cannot stand the sight of inquity (Habakkuk 1:13), and God the Son were separated by the gulf caused by our sins. But praise God, the story does not end there. Keep reading Psalm 22 to the end.

The words of David in Psalm 22 are truly the words of Christ. Jesus was not merely quoting the Word of God for comfort as you or I might in a difficult situation. It was His Word. It was a prophetic utterance by David realized in Christ. It has application to all of us; hence, we are blessed to sing those words in the Psalter and be comforted knowing that whatever trials we have gone through pale in comparison to Christ's sufferings on the cross.

But Psalm 22 and others like it speak of the internal anguish that comprised part of Christ's sufferings. More so than the Gospel accounts even, this Psalm speaks of the heart-pain that Jesus underwent in his cruel death. Isaiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all record his sufferings from an external point of view; David gives expression to his sufferings from an internal point of view. It is the Word of Christ Himself expressing His own agony at being forsaken.

These thoughts by others more eloquent than myself may be helpful:

Matthew Henry:

1. This may be applied to David, or any other child of God, in the want of the tokens of his favour, pressed with the burden of his displeasure, roaring under it, as one overwhelmed with grief and terror, crying earnestly for relief, and, in this case, apprehending himself forsaken of God, unhelped, unheard, yet calling him, again and again, "My God," and continuing to cry day and night to him and earnestly desiring his gracious returns. Note, (1.) Spiritual desertions are the saints' sorest afflictions; when their evidences are clouded, divine consolations suspended, their communion with God interrupted, and the terrors of God set in array against them, how sad are their spirits, and how sapless all their comforts! (2.) Even their complaint of these burdens is a good sign of spiritual life and spiritual senses exercised. To cry out, "My God, why am I sick? Why am I poor?" would give cause to suspect discontent and worldliness. But, Why has though forsaken me? is the language of a heart binding up its happiness in God's favour. (3.) When we are lamenting God's withdrawings, yet still we must call him our God, and continue to call upon him as ours. When we want the faith of assurance we must live by a faith of adherence. "However it be, yet God is good, and he is mine; though he slay me, yet I trust in him; though he do not answer me immediately, I will continue praying and waiting; though he be silent, I will not be silent."

2. But is must be applied to Christ: for, in the first words of this complaint, he poured out his soul before God when he was upon the cross (Matt 27:46); probably he proceeded to the following words, and, some think, repeated the whole psalm, if not aloud (because they cavilled at the first words), yet to himself. Note, (1.) Christ, in his sufferings, cried earnestly to his Father for his favour and presence with him. He cried in the daytime, upon the cross, and in the night-season, when he was in agony in the garden. He offered up strong crying and tears to him that was able to save him, and with some fear too, Heb 5:7. (2.) Yet God forsook him, was far from helping him, and did not hear him, and it was this that he complained of more than all his sufferings. God delivered him into the hands of his enemies; it was by his determinate counsel that he was crucified and slain, and he did not give in sensible comforts. But, Christ having made himself sin for us, in conformity thereunto the Father laid him under the present impressions of his wrath and displeasure against sin. It pleased the Lord to bruise him and put him to grief, Isa 53:10. But even then he kept fast hold of his relation to his Father as his God, by whom he was now employed, whom he was now serving, and with whom he should shortly be glorified.

Matthew Poole:

Ps 22:1. My God; whom, notwithstanding thy forsaking me, I heartily love, and in whom I trust; who art my Friend and Father, though now thou frownest upon me. My God; the repetition notes the depth of his distress, which made him cry so earnestly, and the strugglings of his faith with his fears and sorrows. Why hast thou forsaken me, i.e. left me in the hands of malicious men, withdrawn the light of thy countenance, and the supports and comforts of thy Spirit from me, and filled me with the terrors of thy wrath, so that I am ready to sink under my burden? This was in part verified in David, but much more fully in Christ, who applies these words to himself, Matt 27:46. From the words of my roaring, i.e. from regarding, or pitying, or answering my strong prayers, and lamentable outcries, forced from me by my intolerable distresses and miseries.

Charles Spurgeon:

Morning, April 15

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"—Ps 22:1

We here behold the Saviour in the depth of his sorrows. No other place so well shows the griefs of Christ as Calvary, and no other moment at Calvary is so full of agony as that in which his cry rends the air—"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" At this moment physical weakness was united with acute mental torture from the shame and ignominy through which he had to pass; and to make his grief culminate with emphasis, he suffered spiritual agony surpassing all expression, resulting from the departure of his Father's presence. This was the black midnight of his horror; then it was that he descended the abyss of suffering. No man can enter into the full meaning of these words. Some of us think at times that we could cry, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" There are seasons when the brightness of our Father's smile is eclipsed by clouds and darkness; but let us remember that God never does really forsake us. It is only a seeming forsaking with us, but in Christ's case it was a real forsaking. We grieve at a little withdrawal of our Father's love; but the real turning away of God's face from his Son, who shall calculate how deep the agony which it caused him?

In our case, our cry is often dictated by unbelief: in his case, it was the utterance of a dreadful fact, for God had really turned away from him for a season. O thou poor, distressed soul, who once lived in the sunshine of God's face, but art now in darkness, remember that he has not really forsaken thee. God in the clouds is as much our God as when he shines forth in all the lustre of his grace; but since even the thought that he has forsaken us gives us agony, what must the woe of the Saviour have been when he exclaimed, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Ashbel Green:

2. Christ was the sacrifice, as well as the priest. "He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. [Heb 9:26] Even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us. [1 Cor 5:7] Without shedding of blood there is no remission." [Heb 9:22] It was, you will observe, the human nature of Christ alone, which suffered in making this sacrifice. The Deity cannot suffer; and the divine nature in Christ therefore suffered nothing. But it is important to remark, that both parts of his human nature—his body and his soul, which were ultimately separated from each other—suffered, and were made a sacrifice, in this great transaction. His body was subjected to great pain and torture. But if this alone had constituted his suffering, he would have borne it, as others have borne it, without a complaint. Indeed, we do not read that he ever uttered a single complaint, in regard to all his bodily pains, dreadful as they certainly were. The sufferings of his soul, were those that made him complain. "My soul," he said, "is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." [Matt 26:38] Those who, in describing or contemplating the sufferings of Christ, dwell wholly, or chiefly, on what related to his body, disregard the statement of facts as given in the Bible. A felt sense of the desert of sin; the assaults of the powers of darkness on his holy soul; the dereliction of his heavenly Father, and the inflictions of divine wrath—these produced his agony—these his prayer and his complaint—these his exclamation, "My God! my God! why hast thou forsaken me?" [Ps 22:1; Matt 27:46; Mark 15:34] Thus Christ, in his human nature—in his body and his soul—was made, as it were, a burnt sacrifice for sin.

Robert McWatty Russell:

Thus in detail do the Psalms portray the mission and work of Christ. The New Testament refers to thirty-eight Psalms at least in which Christ is found. In these every truth concerning His person and offices and life are clearly revealed. Every name by which He is known is found or implied here. He is termed Prophet, Priest, and King of His people. His divinity is affirmed in the passages already quoted, and to these we might add explicit references to His gentle and gracious ways; to His poverty and persecution; to His triumphant entrance into Jerusalem; His trial and His violent death; to His resurrection, ascension, and outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon men. In the language of Dr. Joseph Kyle, "Thirteen Psalms cluster around the Cross. The betrayer and traitor are described in Ps 41 and Ps 56. The terror of those who made arrest of Jesus is described in Ps 27:2. His desertion by friends is recorded in Ps 69 and Ps 142. The alliance of Herod and Pontius Pilate is foreshadowed in Ps 2. The testimony of false witnesses is referred to in Ps 109:1-5. The silence of Christ before His accusers is mentioned in Ps 38. The piercing of hands and feet; the parting of His garments; the casting of lots on His vesture; the cruel curiosity of the multitude; the mockery of the priests and others who were hostile, are all described in Ps 22. His cry of anguish, 'My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?' [Ps 22:1] is from the same Psalm; while His last words, 'Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit,' is from Ps 31:5. Of the five Scriptures which are especially mentioned as having been fulfilled on the occasion of His death, three are from the Psalter. The parting of His garments is from Ps 22; that concerning the vinegar and gall from Ps 69, and the sparing of Jesus from the crushing blow that brake the legs of the thieves is the fulfillment of Ps 34, 'A bone of Him shall not be broken.'"
...
Ps 22 is also subjectively Messianic, in that no other person than that of Christ can be the center of its experience. It portrays Christ in the darkness of His desolation, when the hosts of evil shut out the light of God, and wrung from His heart the bitter cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" [Ps 22:1] It portrays the scorn and mockery of spectators, the weakness and agony of His tortured frame, the cruel execution that involved piercing of hands and feet. It rounds out into a song of missionary triumph, when through a proclaimed Lord of life "all the ends of the earth shall remember, and turn unto Jehovah." [Ps 22:27] None but Jesus can be the central figure of this Psalm, and of Him only did the Spirit indite its words.

Henry Scudder:

But know this to your comfort, when God most withdraws himself and forsakes you, it is but in part, in appearance only, and but for a time. He may, for the cause before mentioned, turn away his face, and forbear to show his loving countenance; but he will not take his loving-kindness utterly from you, nor suffer his faithfulness to fail, Ps 89:32-34. What God said to his afflicted church, that he saith to every afflicted member thereof: For a small moment have I forsaken thee: but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath have I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer, Isa 54:7-8. Hence it is that in your greatest extremities, your faith and hope shall secretly, though you feel not their work, preserve you from utter despair. As it was with David, and with our blessed Saviour, Ps 22:1, who, although these words of theirs to God, Why hast thou forsaken me, argue fear, and want of sense of God's love; yet these words, My God, my God, do argue a secret alliance and hope, Matt 27:46.

Zacharias Ursinus:

But since the divine nature was united to the human, how is it possible that it was so oppressed and weakened as to break forth in such exclamations of anguish; and especially so when there were martyrs who were far more bold and courageous? The cause of this arises from the difference which there was in the punishment which Christ endured and that of martyrs. St. Lawrence, lying on the gridiron, did not experience the dreadful wrath of God, either against his own, or against the sins of the human race, the entire punishment of which was inflicted upon the Son of God, as Isaiah saith, he was stricken, and smitten of God for our sins: We say, then, that St. Lawrence did not feel the anger of an offended God piercing and wounding him; but felt that God was reconciled, and at peace with him; neither did he experience the horrors of death and hell as Christ did, but he had great consolation, because he suffered on account of confessing the gospel, and was assured that his sins were remitted by and for the sake of the Son of God, upon whom they were laid, according to what is said, "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world." (John 1:29.) Hence it is easy to be accounted for, why St. Lawrence seemed to have more courage and presence of mind in his martyrdom, than Christ in his passion; and hence it is also that the human nature of Christ, although united to the Godhead, was made to sweat drops of blood in the garden, and to give vent to the mournful lamentation, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" [Ps 22:1; Matt 27:46; Mark 15:34] Not that there was any separation between the natures in Christ; but because the humanity was for a time forsaken by the Divinity, the Word being at rest, or quiet, (as Irenaeus saith) and not bringing aid and deliverance to the afflicted humanity until a passion altogether sufficient might be endured and finished.
...
Objection 2. There must be a proportion between the satisfaction and the crime. But there is no proper proportion, between the sufferings of one man, and the sins of an infinite number of men. How, therefore, can the ransom which Christ alone paid, correspond with the sins of a vast number of men? Answer. It can, for these two causes: First, on account of the dignity of his person; and secondly, on account of the greatness of the punishment which he endured; for he suffered that which we were bound to suffer to all eternity. His passion, therefore, is equivalent to everlasting punishment, yea it exceeds it; because, that God should suffer, is more than that all creatures should perish. This was the greatest miracle, that the Son of God should cry out, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me." [Ps 22:1; Matt 27:46; Mark 15:34]

Reply 1. God cannot suffer and die. Christ suffered and died. Therefore, he is not God. Answer. We reply to the major proposition—God, that is, the person which is only God, cannot suffer, or is impassible, according to that in respect to which he is God. But Christ is not only God, but also man. Or we may concede the whole argument, if it be rightly understood; for Christ is not God, in respect to that in which he suffered and died, that is, in respect to his human nature.
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Objection. But if there was no such separation between the natures of Christ, why did he exclaim, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" [Ps 22:1; Matt 27:46; Mark 15:34] Answer. This cry was extorted from the suffering Son of God, not on account of any separation of the two natures, but on account of the delay of help and assistance: for the two natures in Christ ought not to be disjoined, because it is written, God hath purchased the church with his own blood." (Acts 20:28.) And it was necessary that he, who would die for our sins, should be the Son of God, that there might thus be a sufficient ransom. So it is also clearly manifest, that the union of the natures in Christ is no ubiquity: for his soul, being separated from his body, was not in the sepulchre with his body, and consequently not everywhere; because that which is everywhere can never be separated. And yet the union of the natures remained complete even in death, and in the grave.