Book-table at church (for selling books): right or wrong?

[ColdSilverMoon]

o.k....but let's talk a bit further about exploiting the Lord's Day. If we are to keep the day in worship, need, and mercy...how do we excuse paying for materials (even if it's not for profit).
Would it be o.k. for someone to by a car as long as no profit was being made on the Lord's Day?

Well, I personally have no problem buying a car in a private transaction (ie, from a friend or relative) on the Lord's Day, but I know others on this board would disagree.

That issue aside, I think the real point of discussion is the intent of the book table. If the intent is to provide edifying material in a convenient fashion, I fail to see a problem with it, and think you could conceivably lump it under the necessity or worship categories. In my case it's a need. The books are all approved by the pastoral staff, and include some excellent Reformed works. The table is only available on Sunday. So the only real opportunity to look at their selections and obtain them is on Sunday after church. Others may disagree, but my conscience has never been the least bit bothered by this...

Now that i know your position on buying a car on the Lord's Day i understand where you are coming from.
We will simply not agree on this issue.

If a devotional were a need then people couldn't survive without it...so i think you define the word "need" very loosely.

Then how you define "need?" If you define it as something necessary to survival, then really your standard is higher than Christ's. So you're right, we won't agree on this issue...

 

[larryjf]

Then how you define "need?" If you define it as something necessary to survival, then really your standard is higher than Christ's. So you're right, we won't agree on this issue...

How's that?

 

[Ex Nihilo]

So, we have the argument from the reverence due the place and event of public worship. And we have the argument from the fourth commandment. Which is stronger? Are both applicable here?

Maybe, but the fourth commandment seems much stronger here -- fewer exceptions, and those are pretty clearly spelled out. The requirement of reverence at the place of worship is kind of mushy and subjective.

Yes, the concept of reverence can be subjective. I am glad that the issue of the Fourth Commandment has come up. Because it hadn't occurred to me when I began the thread.

The Fourth Commandment is not a burden, so there must be many ways one can acquire literature without having to do this on the Lord's Day.

I'm not positive what I think about this, so I am glad to be able to read everyone's responses in this thread. But yes, two points:

(1) As already stated, I am not positive the Fourth Amendment prohibits buying and selling on the Lord's Day, but if it does, I can't agree with trying to argue that this is an exception. With man-made laws, we argue plausible but unlikely exceptions all the time. But I can't agree with treating God's law the same way.

(2) Yes, there must be many ways one could acquire literature without a Sunday book table. I don't get the argument that the book table couldn't be held on another day of the week. It would not likely be a tremendous burden to ask church members to come at some other time (perhaps on Wednesday) to buy books.

(3) Whether it's "okay" to sell books (even on a nonprofit basis) on Sunday or not, it seems that it would be a better policy not to charge. If the church charges for the books, the at-cost price does not help the less affluent all that much. If the point is really edification, the church would give the books away for free, perhaps with a gentle reminder to tithe. What a wonderful ministry if those who are able to pay can help cover the cost of books for others! Are we really afraid that theological book-lovers are going to break the budget through their mooching? I strongly suspect that the church would actually get more money by giving the books away for free and encouraging those who are able to give their regular offerings. Maybe some do not see a real difference if "payment" is still being encouraged; I do.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

Then how you define "need?" If you define it as something necessary to survival, then really your standard is higher than Christ's. So you're right, we won't agree on this issue...

How's that?

Luke 6:1-11. Here's verse 9 (NKJV):

Then Jesus said to them: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?

Healing on the Sabbath is an unnecessary good work - unnecessary in the sense that it could be done on the following day. Making available good, edifying books on the Lord's Day is also an unnecessary good work. Seems perfectly permissible, to me.

 

[larryjf]

Then how you define "need?" If you define it as something necessary to survival, then really your standard is higher than Christ's. So you're right, we won't agree on this issue...

How's that?

Luke 6:1-11. Here's verse 9 (NKJV):

Then Jesus said to them: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?

Healing on the Sabbath is an unnecessary good work - unnecessary in the sense that it could be done on the following day. Making available good, edifying books on the Lord's Day is also an unnecessary good work. Seems perfectly permissible, to me.

Of course it's lawful to save life...i would never disagree to that. Whether that salvation comes through healing the body (which is why i said that a doctor's visit would be permissible), or healing the soul.

To equate a the miraculous healings of Jesus to devotionals on a back table is obscene.

Did Jesus charge on this Sabbath? Did He accept money enough to cover His expenses (not-for-profit)?

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

How's that?

Luke 6:1-11. Here's verse 9 (NKJV):

Then Jesus said to them: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?

Healing on the Sabbath is an unnecessary good work - unnecessary in the sense that it could be done on the following day. Making available good, edifying books on the Lord's Day is also an unnecessary good work. Seems perfectly permissible, to me.

Of course it's lawful to save life...i would never disagree to that. Whether that salvation comes through healing the body (which is why i said that a doctor's visit would be permissible), or healing the soul.

To equate a the miraculous healings of Jesus to devotionals on a back table is obscene.

Did Jesus charge on this Sabbath? Did He accept money enough to cover His expenses (not-for-profit)?

The point is that Jesus performed good acts on the Sabbath and I would consider providing edifying books a good act as well. Wouldn't you consider an edifying book an agent for healing the soul?

And while Jesus didn't "charge" for healing of course, He did accept general donations to sustain His ministry.

 

[MMasztal]

Me thinks ye strain at gnats.

 

[Herald]

I'm content to allow this to be a matter of Christian liberty. If a church decides that no money will exchange hands for anything, even a coffee fund, so be it. If a church provides resources at or below cost, so be it. I haven't been convinced by the arguments against, so to me it's a matter of liberty.

 

[Jon Peters]

Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).

In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.

If you define commerce as exchanging goods for money, then i don't see how that wouldn't be commerce.

Bringing cream for coffee is sharing your resources....buying a devotion is commerce.

I'm curious about the commerce issue. Does your definition of commerce include the purchase of an item on credit? For instance, what if I take the book on Sunday and tell the person I will pay them tomorrow and they agree? Commerce? If you would consider that commerce then how is it not commerce to use electricity on the Lord's day? Are you not accruing expenses (in exchange for services rendered) to be paid at a later date? I wouldn't think that in the typical household (no electrical medical devices) electricity is a necessity in that people existed for thousands of years without it.

 

[Confessor]

I'm curious about the commerce issue. Does your definition of commerce include the purchase of an item on credit? For instance, what if I take the book on Sunday and tell the person I will pay them tomorrow and they agree? Commerce?

This is an interesting point. I would have to say that making such a deal would in fact be commerce, and consequently it would be forbidden on the Sabbath.

Of course, I'm digging the whole "optional non-profit payment to cover the expenses" side...

If you would consider that commerce then how is it not commerce to use electricity on the Lord's day? Are you not accruing expenses (in exchange for services rendered) to be paid at a later date? I wouldn't think that in the typical household (no electrical medical devices) electricity is a necessity in that people existed for thousands of years without it.

I disagree here. To say that electricity was not needed in a non-electronic age is not to say that electricity is unnecessary in all ages.

 

[Scott Shahan]

Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).

In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.

If you define commerce as exchanging goods for money, then i don't see how that wouldn't be commerce.

Bringing cream for coffee is sharing your resources....buying a devotion is commerce.

This is getting in to semantics. If you strictly define commerce as exchanging money for goods, then I would argue that a book table is an acceptable form of commerce. But I think any reasonable person can distinguish between providing a service (ie, good Christian books for no profit) and setting up a business enterprise that exploits the Lord's Day and His people.

I used to go bethlehem baptist church in minneapolis and Piper has Desiring God bookstore open for business in the church on sundays.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I have known Books to spiritually heal people. Especially when they exegete the Word of God. I am not against buying a good book for someone on Sunday as I am not against buying a Drs. Prescription on Sunday.

 

[Kevin]

Could we not even go so far as to say that some books that are picked up on a Sunday book table "preach the Gospel"?

If the book in question met this criteria, could anyone still object?

 

[larryjf]

The point is that Jesus performed good acts on the Sabbath and I would consider providing edifying books a good act as well. Wouldn't you consider an edifying book an agent for healing the soul?

And while Jesus didn't "charge" for healing of course, He did accept general donations to sustain His ministry.

The point of the passage is that if we neglect doing good works on the Sabbath we are, in fact, sinning.

Taking money in return for something is not what the Lord is teaching here.

-----Added 12/15/2008 at 08:56:15 EST-----

I'm curious about the commerce issue. Does your definition of commerce include the purchase of an item on credit? For instance, what if I take the book on Sunday and tell the person I will pay them tomorrow and they agree? Commerce? If you would consider that commerce then how is it not commerce to use electricity on the Lord's day? Are you not accruing expenses (in exchange for services rendered) to be paid at a later date? I wouldn't think that in the typical household (no electrical medical devices) electricity is a necessity in that people existed for thousands of years without it.

A book will not keep you alive, electricity will...it's a need, which is allowable on the Lord's Day.
You can't say that it's not a need because in the past people didn't have it. People ate different kinds of food to, but that doesn't mean that our food isn't a need.
We can't just make a fire in the middle of our living room to keep warm or to cook. Our society has evolved to the point where electricity is a necessity for most.

 

[Quickened]

In my opinion these books are to edify and educate the believer on their journey with God. Nothing wrong with that. My church is the only physical place that i can drive to and buy solid reformed material.

I am also very grateful that i have this oppurtunity to do so. Some believers arent so lucky and have to rely on internet only transactions. Its nice to meet with believers and discuss the works in front of us as we wait for service to start. Makes for good fellowship and conversation.

 

[larryjf]

Could we not even go so far as to say that some books that are picked up on a Sunday book table "preach the Gospel"?

If the book in question met this criteria, could anyone still object?

Hopefully the Gospel was preached while they were in the church service. I pray that we haven't gotten to the point where we must charge people on Sunday's to have the Gospel preached to them.

 

[Tim]

I am not sure I buy this whole "it's okay to engage in commerce on the Lord's Day because you are buying and selling that which is spiritually beneficial" argument. If you agree that commerce in general violates the Fourth Commandment, then you would have to find a reason why a book table would be permissible in this case. (I am just addressing the Fourth Commandment here; not the reverence of the house of worship issue).

Let us remember that the Westminster Confession recognizes two activities that are always permissible on the Sabbath: necessity and mercy (Matt. 12:1-13). One who favors a book table will have to show that either:

1) a book table is necessary; or
2) a book table is merciful.

I will assume that necessity will not be argued here.

If the purpose of the book table is to provide something merciful, how is this consistent with charging money (even at cost)? This would be akin to me charging you money when I help you pull your sheep out of a pit (as in Matt. 12: 11-13). This is not mercy. Mercy cannot be paid for.

Is this passage relevant here?

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

 

[JonathanHunt]

We have a free book table, period. If folks want particular books or ask for help on a topic, I quote them a price and procure them the books 'seperately'. Sometimes folks feel 'guilty' taking literature as 'the church' has paid for it. When they approach me about it I just tell them to drop a few extra pounds in the offering box if that is how they feel.

It is certainly not something that I will get bent out of shape about, but I feel it is best to avoid giving offence over such a trivial matter, so we do not 'sell' any items on the Lord's Day.

 

[Scott1]

Westminster Larger Catechism
Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord’s day to be sanctified?

A. The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day,[624] not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful;[625] and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy[626]) in the public and private exercises of God’s worship:[627] and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.[628]

Our Standards may cut us some slack here.

As a summary of the doctrine of Scripture, we are to rest from our employment and entertaining self, which includes our thoughts, words and deeds about them. Conversely, we ought not require others to do the same except that, generously, God has given us exceptions for necessity and mercy, and implicitly piety (cf GI Williamson defines this as things necessary for the public worship of God- we sometimes take this for granted without acknowledging it).

So, the focus is on employment and recreation which makes church book distribution a little more possible- not every method, and because it is "lawfull" doesn't mean it is "expedient" or that it will not cause others to stumble, which brings other biblical precepts into consideration.

 

[Quickened]

I am not sure I buy this whole "it's okay to engage in commerce on the Lord's Day because you are buying and selling that which is spiritually beneficial" argument. If you agree that commerce in general violates the Fourth Commandment, then you would have to find a reason why a book table would be permissible in this case. (I am just addressing the Fourth Commandment here; not the reverence of the house of worship issue).

Let us remember that the Westminster Confession recognizes two activities that are always permissible on the Sabbath: necessity and mercy (Matt. 12:1-13). One who favors a book table will have to show that either:

1) a book table is necessary; or
2) a book table is merciful.

I will assume that necessity will not be argued here.


If the purpose of the book table is to provide something merciful, how is this consistent with charging money (even at cost)? This would be akin to me charging you money when I help you pull your sheep out of a pit (as in Matt. 12: 11-13). This is not mercy. Mercy cannot be paid for.

Is this passage relevant here?

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

I dont know. I dont consider this a typical type of commerce. If someone was to go out on the sabbath and buy a video game I would see that as unnecessary. That could be done on any other day of the week.

In some instances buying materials at church is only an activity that can occur on a sunday.

On the Lord's day do you read only the bible? If i read books other than the bible I have a hard time seeing how dropping some bills in the box for said materials is a sabbath violation.

Secondly we cant expect church materials (like books) to be free. Especially for smaller congregations. With the cost of materials and shipping it wouldnt be beneficial to the church. Assuming that church is actively going through materials it would be a loss every month.

If they provide this service then i see no problem paying for it. As a bonus i am saving money on shipping.

The passage in acts really doesnt apply here (in my opinion). What was simon after here? The power. His intentions were off from the beginning. Who knows what he would have done had he actually had this ability but if we remember he was already wowing the people with his magic to the point where they said "this man is the power of God which is called great".

He was rebuked for trying to obtain this gift with money. I dont think books fall into this category.

 

[Tim]

The passage in acts really doesnt apply here (in my opinion). What was simon after here? The power. His intentions were off from the beginning. Who knows what he would have done had he actually had this ability but if we remember he was already wowing the people with his magic to the point where they said "this man is the power of God which is called great".

He was rebuked for trying to obtain this gift with money. I dont think books fall into this category.

Yeah, you're probably right - it's too much out of context. I was trying to make the point that if books are considered a sort of edifying ministry, and someone is paying for this ministry...

I dont know. I dont consider this a typical type of commerce. If someone was to go out on the sabbath and buy a video game I would see that as unnecessary. That could be done on any other day of the week.

So, let's try to get at what is the difference. In one, you are paying money for spiritually edifying material. In the other, you are paying money for recreation material.

If we are to pursue this argument that you and others have suggested (and I think it is useful to do so here), then we have to decide why it is okay to engage in commerce of Christian material and not other types of material, on the Lord's Day.

In some instances buying materials at church is only an activity that can occur on a sunday.

Debatable.

 

[Reformed Baptist]

We have literature on our welcome table. It's just for free.

 

[Kevin]

Is it "commerce" for a paid minister to preach on Sunday?

 

[Scott1]

It might be helpful to define works of "piety," an "exception" to the fourth commandment prohibition against doing any work.

GI Williamson, The Westminster Confession of Faith for Study Classes p.222

Similarly, Christ proved from Scripture that certain speific types of work are legitimate on the Sabbath. These works are works of piety (that is work that must be done in order that God be worshipped, such as the work of a pastor in preaching the gospel on the Lord's Day), works of necessity (that is, work that cannot be delayed without harm to life or property, such as rescuing an ox that falls in the ditch, or helping put out a fire), and works of mercy (such as an act of kindness to a person who is sick or in distress)...

Jesus did not eliminate the Sabbath, but placed it where it belonged, that is, subordinate to his own lordship.

 

[Tim]

It might be helpful to define works of "piety," an "exception" to the fourth commandment prohibition against doing any work.

GI Williamson, The Westminster Confession of Faith for Study Classes p.222

Similarly, Christ proved from Scripture that certain speific types of work are legitimate on the Sabbath. These works are works of piety (that is work that must be done in order that God be worshipped, such as the work of a pastor in preaching the gospel on the Lord's Day), works of necessity (that is, work that cannot be delayed without hard to life or property, such as rescuing an ox that falls in the ditch, or helping put out a fire), and works of mercy (such as an act of kindness to a person who is sick or in distress)...

Jesus did not eliminate the Sabbath, but placed it where it belonged, that is, subordinate to his own lordship.

Thanks for this, Scott. Now we have three categories that might potentially allow the selling of books at church on the Lord's Day. I don't think we have yet defined works of piety on this thread as well as Williamson has done in the quote. So, it is a good addition to the discussion.

However, I am having trouble seeing how selling books is considered "work that must be done in order that God be worshipped". Book-buying certainly seems to me to be in a different category from preaching, reading of scripture, etc.

I'm not sure where to go from here. I think the next thing that we would have to figure out is what exactly about selling a Christian book makes it different. And would it be okay to sell a book on Christian homeschooling or a biography?

 

[Nate]

I've been firmly in the "no selling books on the Lord's Day - even not for profit" camp while reading this thread. Then I realized that my denomination has a practice of giving money to the "General Fund" at/during church. The General Fund covers building/pastor/evangelism costs - I guess we are in effect paying the bills on Sunday. Maybe a little

 

[larryjf]

I've been firmly in the "no selling books on the Lord's Day - even not for profit" camp while reading this thread. Then I realized that my denomination has a practice of giving money to the "General Fund" at/during church. The General Fund covers building/pastor/evangelism costs - I guess we are in effect paying the bills on Sunday. Maybe a little

If the money is given by means of the tithe then it shouldn't be an issue. Tithing is supposed to be done on the Lord's Day.

 

[Tim]

I've been firmly in the "no selling books on the Lord's Day - even not for profit" camp while reading this thread. Then I realized that my denomination has a practice of giving money to the "General Fund" at/during church. The General Fund covers building/pastor/evangelism costs - I guess we are in effect paying the bills on Sunday. Maybe a little

That's totally fine.

 

[fredtgreco]

I've been firmly in the "no selling books on the Lord's Day - even not for profit" camp while reading this thread. Then I realized that my denomination has a practice of giving money to the "General Fund" at/during church. The General Fund covers building/pastor/evangelism costs - I guess we are in effect paying the bills on Sunday. Maybe a little

If the money is given by means of the tithe then it shouldn't be an issue. Tithing is supposed to be done on the Lord's Day.

Actually, unless you admit an offering as an element of worship, I don't see any evidence that is the case.

 

[Tim]

I've been firmly in the "no selling books on the Lord's Day - even not for profit" camp while reading this thread. Then I realized that my denomination has a practice of giving money to the "General Fund" at/during church. The General Fund covers building/pastor/evangelism costs - I guess we are in effect paying the bills on Sunday. Maybe a little

If the money is given by means of the tithe then it shouldn't be an issue. Tithing is supposed to be done on the Lord's Day.

Actually, unless you admit an offering as an element of worship, I don't see any evidence that is the case.

Yes, I forgot that this was a debated issue. Is this passage relevant here?

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.