Book-table at church (for selling books): right or wrong?

[Tim]

Every once in a while, I attend a church that has a table set up to display books for sale. I am speaking of when this occurs on the Lord's Day.

I can't help thinking of this verse:

Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves...(KJV)

What about selling CD's of sermons (to be fair, usually at cost)? What about having a communal meal and everyone chips in for the price of the food (again just for the cost)?

 

[larryjf]

Buying and selling on the Lord's Day is sacrilege, desecrating the day that is to be sanctified.
When it's done within the walls of the church it's even more odious.

 

[Kevin]

Providing religious material to believers on the Lord's Day is not "buying & selling", in my opinion.

What is prohibited is commerce, not donating, or refunding the cost of books, food, or any other expense.

The money changers were engages in a commercial enterprise of selling coins & animals for offerings & sacrifices.

If you entered a church that only accepted a proprietary form of currency as an offering & you could only buy it from them at a userous exchange rate, then you would have a situation that was similar to that condemned by Christ.

Simply accepting the cost of a few devotional, or educational books is not even similar.

 

[BobVigneault]

Kevin,
the money changers and salesfolks WERE providing 'religious' material to be used in worship.

How can you say, "Simply accepting the cost of a few devotional, or educational books is not even similar " without any argument from scripture or the confessions?

Back up and try again brother.

 

[Scott1]

What about selling CD's of sermons (to be fair, usually at cost)?

Great question on how we can be fully faithful to the Fourth Commandment and not fall into presumptuous sin.

On first thought, it seems okay to leave the worship service and pick up a sermon on cassette or CD on a donation-only basis (that is, take one for free or contribute $2 to defray cost of reproduction). Commerce is not really based on a donation only basis (including "free") and it would seem this is a work of piety, allowed as an exception to keeping the sabbath. Not to extend this too far logically, but it might be the only way someone sick at home, or a "shut in" can hear the worship service sermon.

Maybe the highest possible road, not possibly causing anyone to stumble, is to only give them out free (which is what my church does), understanding that it must come from the church's ministry budget alone. Nothing is really free. But I don't think it would be a per se sabbath violation to distribute not-for-profit biblical materials Lord's Day.

 

[Kevin]

My point was that it is a difference in kind.

The money changers were engaged in commerce. This how they made their living. It was a job. They sold animals at a profit. They exchanged money for temple coins at a huge profit.

Unless I misunderstood Tim's question this is not a Mega-church/shopping mall operating a for profit bookstore on Sunday.

Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).

In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.

 

[BobVigneault]

Thanks for qualifying what you meant by similar Kevin. Well said.

 

[JTDyck]

I agree with Kevin. There is a way to do this discreetly without big signs and cash registers.

We don't currently have a book table, but when we did we would place a small envelope into each book with the title and the amount written on it. This amount was our cost or less. Anyone who wanted a book would place the money in the envelope and put it in a box. They were free to do this at their own discretion. It was done entirely on the honour system. If someone wanted to take the book home on the Lord's Day and put the money in the box on Wednesday night or some other time, no problem.

This also gives it more of a ministry aspect. We did not have anyone designated to monitor the table to make sure the books are accounted for. If someone needs the book and is unable to pay, so be it. It is a ministry.

 

[Kevin]

Notice what is listed just under the Sunday Service info on the page of this church,

Moncton Wesleyan

Yes they do. A Tim Hortons in the church.

 

[Herald]

I have to lean in Kevin's direction. Many churches provide some free resources. A person who wants a CD of a sermon is asked to pay for the cost of the CD. I see no sacrilege in having them drop off payment for the CD on the Lord's Day. If their conscience is bothered they can make payment during the midweek service or mail it in.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

My point was that it is a difference in kind.

The money changers were engaged in commerce. This how they made their living. It was a job. They sold animals at a profit. They exchanged money for temple coins at a huge profit.

Unless I misunderstood Tim's question this is not a Mega-church/shopping mall operating a for profit bookstore on Sunday.

Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).

In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.

I agree with Kevin. Engaging in commerce for personal (or even church) profit is wrong, but supplying edifying material with the monetary exchange only covering the cost of the material itself seems perfectly acceptable to me. Our church has a book table, and it is the best Reformed book store in New York, in my opinion, and only operates on Sundays after church. What a loss it would be if they shut it down....

 

[Tim]

Do you think "profit vs. non-profit" has any bearing here?

One time, I attended John MacArthur preaching at a church in Victoria, BC, Canada, on a Sunday night. After the service, there were "miles" of tables selling every one of his commentaries and topical books. Perhaps this is "non-profit".

But what if you have the local Christian book distributor, who has a "presence" at the church. Perhaps it is that one of the owner/operators attends that church and is permitted to set up the book table. It seems likely that this is "for profit", because someone makes a living through this business.



-----Added 12/15/2008 at 10:22:33 EST-----

Notice what is listed just under the Sundy Service info on the page of this church,

Moncton Wesleyan

Yes they do. A Tim Hortons in the church.

Oh, that is so Eastern Canadian.

 

[FenderPriest]

Just a note on Jesus' cleansing of the temple text that is cited here. I'm not sure I would apply it to book/media tables in church. Jesus cleansed the temple twice (the first time in John 2, and the second time - as quoted - Matt. 21/Mark 11/Luke 19). What seems to be the issue here is people's obedience to Law regarding temple worship and profiting off the worship of God. In these cases (especially John 2), it seems to me that they were doing both of these in that the outer courts of the temple were for non-Jews to worship - not buying and selling, and profiting off God's worship. I'm not sure I would apply these texts to book/audio tables because it would imply a temple worship grid upon the purpose and use of a building. Do we have a physical inner court, second court, and outer court? It's my impression from Hebrews 9 and 10 that these physical things have been done away with. Thus, a book table is no longer in the "courts of the temple" because there is no physical place for such a location in a church building/rented space because it's A) been done away with since Jesus is the true temple now, and B) there is no distinction of rights in accessing God within God's people, thus no need for tiers of worship rights represented in the three courts system.

Further, as has been noted, good church practice is to have the books/media only "bought" at cost value (or at the church's loss in some cases). Thus, the church is not profiting off of the worship of God, but it may be seen rather to be a service to the people of God in helping them worship God through a growth in understanding and application of the grace of the Gospel provided in the material.

These are my thoughts on the issue. I may be completely wrong in some places - so please feel free to correct me.

Yours,
~Jacob

 

[larryjf]

Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).

In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.

If you define commerce as exchanging goods for money, then i don't see how that wouldn't be commerce.

Bringing cream for coffee is sharing your resources....buying a devotion is commerce.

 

[Tim]

What seems to be the issue here is people's obedience to Law regarding temple worship and profiting off the worship of God. In these cases (especially John 2), it seems to me that they were doing both of these in that the outer courts of the temple were for non-Jews to worship - not buying and selling, and profiting off God's worship.

Thanks for bringing into this discussion the other account of this cleansing:

Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Wasn't it that the vendors were making a profit from selling animals to be sacrificed? So, I agree, it doesn't seem to be exactly the same as a book table.

The other way to come at this would be to decide whether engaging in commerce violates the Fourth Commandment. Because commerce is work.

 

[larryjf]

I also don't see how paying someone for something on the Lord's Day fits into: necessity, mercy, or worship ... unless you are paying for a needed doctor's visit or something.

Nothing that can be purchased on the back table can be a need, it wouldn't be mercy as devotionals don't really show mercy to anyone, and it wouldn't be worship as we don't need devotionals to worship...although a devotion can help in our worship.
If someone wants to help others in worship by putting out devotionals, they should do so freely....i can't see any other source of helping our worship being paid for. Could you imagine if we were asked to give a contribution for the copyrighted praise songs that we sang during service? What about a voluntary cover-charge to get into the church building?...after all, there's a cost to having the building as well.

 

[BJClark]

Tim;

Every once in a while, I attend a church that has a table set up to display books for sale. I am speaking of when this occurs on the Lord's Day.

I'm curious are the tables ONLY set up on the Lords Day or are they there everyday where people could go any time to purchase the books? And does that make a difference?

That is what our church does, the table is there ALL the time..so that people can come in any day and make a purchase, not just the Lords Day.

 

[Kevin]

For the record,

I have book's & Bibles available every Sunday in 2 churches.

ESV & NKJ paperback complete bibles, Banner of Truth booklets, Seeing & Savoring Jesus Christ (Piper), Spurgeon, SC, French Bibles, and other French litt. etc.

I do not charge for any of them. In fact I make it clear at every opportunity that the is NO COST. This morning I just paid off a $1000+ credit card bill for books & bibles to give away. This year I will end up giving out over 500 Bibles & christian books to people at no cost.

So far, I have recieved gifts from people that exceed the cost of the books that I have given out. In other words, I can not give bibles away fast enough to keep up with the money that God has provided to fund this ministry.

PTL

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).

In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.

If you define commerce as exchanging goods for money, then i don't see how that wouldn't be commerce.

Bringing cream for coffee is sharing your resources....buying a devotion is commerce.

This is getting in to semantics. If you strictly define commerce as exchanging money for goods, then I would argue that a book table is an acceptable form of commerce. But I think any reasonable person can distinguish between providing a service (ie, good Christian books for no profit) and setting up a business enterprise that exploits the Lord's Day and His people.

 

[Tim]

Tim;

Every once in a while, I attend a church that has a table set up to display books for sale. I am speaking of when this occurs on the Lord's Day.

I'm curious are the tables ONLY set up on the Lords Day or are they there everyday where people could go any time to purchase the books? And does that make a difference?

That is what our church does, the table is there ALL the time..so that people can come in any day and make a purchase, not just the Lords Day.

I am not really referring to any specific church, as I have seen this many places. I think that usually the book table is there because it is convenient. It's likely that there would be opportunity to purchase books at some other location (i.e., the store, or someone's home-office) in the neighborhood during the week.

 

[larryjf]

Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).

In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.

If you define commerce as exchanging goods for money, then i don't see how that wouldn't be commerce.

Bringing cream for coffee is sharing your resources....buying a devotion is commerce.

This is getting in to semantics. If you strictly define commerce as exchanging money for goods, then I would argue that a book table is an acceptable form of commerce. But I think any reasonable person can distinguish between providing a service (ie, good Christian books for no profit) and setting up a business enterprise that exploits the Lord's Day and His people.

o.k....but let's talk a bit further about exploiting the Lord's Day. If we are to keep the day in worship, need, and mercy...how do we excuse paying for materials (even if it's not for profit).
Would it be o.k. for someone to by a car as long as no profit was being made on the Lord's Day?

 

[FenderPriest]

What seems to be the issue here is people's obedience to Law regarding temple worship and profiting off the worship of God. In these cases (especially John 2), it seems to me that they were doing both of these in that the outer courts of the temple were for non-Jews to worship - not buying and selling, and profiting off God's worship.

Thanks for bringing into this discussion the other account of this cleansing:

Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Wasn't it that the vendors were making a profit from selling animals to be sacrificed? So, I agree, it doesn't seem to be exactly the same as a book table.

D.A. Carson makes the helpful note that the other issue was that since it was in the temple courts, it was excluding the Gentiles from worshipping. Jesus isn't down with excluding worshipers of his Father.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

If you define commerce as exchanging goods for money, then i don't see how that wouldn't be commerce.

Bringing cream for coffee is sharing your resources....buying a devotion is commerce.

This is getting in to semantics. If you strictly define commerce as exchanging money for goods, then I would argue that a book table is an acceptable form of commerce. But I think any reasonable person can distinguish between providing a service (ie, good Christian books for no profit) and setting up a business enterprise that exploits the Lord's Day and His people.

o.k....but let's talk a bit further about exploiting the Lord's Day. If we are to keep the day in worship, need, and mercy...how do we excuse paying for materials (even if it's not for profit).
Would it be o.k. for someone to by a car as long as no profit was being made on the Lord's Day?

Well, I personally have no problem buying a car in a private transaction (ie, from a friend or relative) on the Lord's Day, but I know others on this board would disagree.

That issue aside, I think the real point of discussion is the intent of the book table. If the intent is to provide edifying material in a convenient fashion, I fail to see a problem with it, and think you could conceivably lump it under the necessity or worship categories. In my case it's a need. The books are all approved by the pastoral staff, and include some excellent Reformed works. The table is only available on Sunday. So the only real opportunity to look at their selections and obtain them is on Sunday after church. Others may disagree, but my conscience has never been the least bit bothered by this...

 

[Ex Nihilo]

This is getting in to semantics. If you strictly define commerce as exchanging money for goods, then I would argue that a book table is an acceptable form of commerce. But I think any reasonable person can distinguish between providing a service (ie, good Christian books for no profit) and setting up a business enterprise that exploits the Lord's Day and His people.

o.k....but let's talk a bit further about exploiting the Lord's Day. If we are to keep the day in worship, need, and mercy...how do we excuse paying for materials (even if it's not for profit).
Would it be o.k. for someone to by a car as long as no profit was being made on the Lord's Day?

Well, I personally have no problem buying a car in a private transaction (ie, from a friend or relative) on the Lord's Day, but I know others on this board would disagree.

That issue aside, I think the real point of discussion is the intent of the book table. If the intent is to provide edifying material in a convenient fashion, I fail to see a problem with it, and think you could conceivably lump it under the necessity or worship categories. In my case it's a need. The books are all approved by the pastoral staff, and include some excellent Reformed works. The table is only available on Sunday. So the only real opportunity to look at their selections and obtain them is on Sunday after church. Others may disagree, but my conscience has never been the least bit bothered by this...

If it were going to be adjudicated by a human being, and there were no right answer, you could. But the Fourth Commandment is not the Bankruptcy Code. . .

 

[larryjf]

This is getting in to semantics. If you strictly define commerce as exchanging money for goods, then I would argue that a book table is an acceptable form of commerce. But I think any reasonable person can distinguish between providing a service (ie, good Christian books for no profit) and setting up a business enterprise that exploits the Lord's Day and His people.

o.k....but let's talk a bit further about exploiting the Lord's Day. If we are to keep the day in worship, need, and mercy...how do we excuse paying for materials (even if it's not for profit).
Would it be o.k. for someone to by a car as long as no profit was being made on the Lord's Day?

Well, I personally have no problem buying a car in a private transaction (ie, from a friend or relative) on the Lord's Day, but I know others on this board would disagree.

That issue aside, I think the real point of discussion is the intent of the book table. If the intent is to provide edifying material in a convenient fashion, I fail to see a problem with it, and think you could conceivably lump it under the necessity or worship categories. In my case it's a need. The books are all approved by the pastoral staff, and include some excellent Reformed works. The table is only available on Sunday. So the only real opportunity to look at their selections and obtain them is on Sunday after church. Others may disagree, but my conscience has never been the least bit bothered by this...

Now that i know your position on buying a car on the Lord's Day i understand where you are coming from.
We will simply not agree on this issue.

If a devotional were a need then people couldn't survive without it...so i think you define the word "need" very loosely.

 

[Scott1]

Our church has a book table, and it is the best Reformed book store in New York, in my opinion, and only operates on Sundays after church. What a loss it would be if they shut it down....
__________________
Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

I bought a copy of a book about Calvinism versus Arminianism at that book table after an evening service.

At that time, I remember appreciating having a place to go and fellowship with (busy New York) church members and to buy some key biblical materials at a non-profit price after the service. It was a natural outgrowth of what I had heard at the service and was hearing generally about reformed theology. My recollection is I purchased two items, didn't have change and they gave me the books for what I had (less than the sticker).

Since my understanding is that sabbath ends at sundown (another topic) and the exchange was after sundown, it would not have been a sabbath violation to me anyway.

All this to say, if I had purchased, say The Purpose Driven Life at full retail rather than Williamson at a non-profit discount, it might have violated my conscience. But I'm trying to distinguish in my own mind why.

 

[Tim]

So, we have the argument from the reverence due the place and event of public worship. And we have the argument from the fourth commandment. Which is stronger? Are both applicable here?

 

[Ex Nihilo]

So, we have the argument from the reverence due the place and event of public worship. And we have the argument from the fourth commandment. Which is stronger? Are both applicable here?

Maybe, but the fourth commandment seems much stronger here -- fewer exceptions, and those are pretty clearly spelled out. The requirement of reverence at the place of worship is kind of mushy and subjective.

 

[Spinningplates2]

From time to time a Sunday night service may have a guest speaker or person who ministers with music, once I bought a CD of hymns and another time I bought a book. Both times I wanted to help their ministry. Did I sin while trying to support their work?

 

[Tim]

So, we have the argument from the reverence due the place and event of public worship. And we have the argument from the fourth commandment. Which is stronger? Are both applicable here?

Maybe, but the fourth commandment seems much stronger here -- fewer exceptions, and those are pretty clearly spelled out. The requirement of reverence at the place of worship is kind of mushy and subjective.

Yes, the concept of reverence can be subjective. I am glad that the issue of the Fourth Commandment has come up. Because it hadn't occurred to me when I began the thread.

The Fourth Commandment is not a burden, so there must be many ways one can acquire literature without having to do this on the Lord's Day.

-----Added 12/15/2008 at 12:17:06 EST-----

From time to time a Sunday night service may have a guest speaker or person who ministers with music, once I bought a CD of hymns and another time I bought a book. Both times I wanted to help their ministry. Did I sin while trying to support their work?

Allan, I don't think anyone would want to say whether or not you have sinned. We are all in this together, and many of us have purchased material at a church at one time or another.

But if this thread is able to help us all consider how we can best glorify the Lord in activities and endeavors that occur during or after public worship, then we have all progressed in our sanctification. May we all be able to find ways to honor God through supporting the ministries from which we have received blessings.