SolaGratia
Puritan Board Junior
Has anyone read Anthony J. Carter book, On Being Black and Reformed: A New Perspective on the African-American Christian Experience?
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Carter and Anyabwile's books are very good. At the Miami Pastor's Conference they were both very adamant that Reformed African-Americans and Latinos begin getting their work published.
Latin America and Northern Europe did not became Christian per see, because of books being published or because of the sword. It became Christian when Southern Europeans served in a Christ-like manner towards the indigenous people of those regions.
For this reason, in Latin Amercia and Southern Europe you cannot just write books like in American and England and expect for the people to change. The people need to see for themselves what your mouth and pen is boasting all about.
I would have to disagree about the community not growing.With the U.S. of A, I will leave that to Christ and prayer.
With the Reformed Churches in the U.S., however, we need to demonstrate that true Christiantity is about doctrine, but in order to serve, in order to love our neighbor (wheter believer or unbeliever) as ourselves because of Christ, who love and gave himself. We don't give ourselves. That is the real fruit of the doctrine of Justification.
I think that is why the Reformed Community is not growing. There is not much fruit to spread its seed.
In this regard, I think Catholic Hispanic immigrants are doing a better job serving neighbor, therefore Christ, as cooks, maids, construction workers, etc. than American born Protestants. What In American is refer to as "dirty jobs," to a Catholic Immigrant is a means of providng for family and neighbor, and again, therefore Christ. And the immigratnt has no legal papers, no education, cannot speak english, and probaly for that reason has more faith.
As a historical example,
Latin America and Northern Europe did not became Christian per see, because of books being published or because of the sword. It became Christian when Southern Europeans served in a Christ-like manner towards the indigenous people of those regions.
For this reason, in Latin Amercia and Southern Europe you cannot just write books, like in American and England, and expect for the people to change and become Reformed. The people need to see for themselves what your mouth and pen is boasting all about.
Writing a book nowadays has more to do with showing off intellectaully and making money, than with serving the Church of Christ because of Christ. Yes, we need the Sproul's, the Beeke's to write and teach, but we also need reformed folks to start servng our neighbors. therefore Christ. I will say that Reformed Protestant Churches need more of the Christ-like serving in action to better reflect our worshipped and pratice. This balance is missing.
With the U.S. of A, I will leave that to Christ and prayer.
With the Reformed Churches in the U.S., however, we need to demonstrate that true Christiantity is about doctrine, but in order to serve, in order to love our neighbor (wheter believer or unbeliever) as ourselves because of Christ, who love and gave himself. We don't give ourselves. That is the real fruit of the doctrine of Justification.
I think that is why the Reformed Community is not growing. There is not much fruit to spread its seeds.
In this regard, I think Catholic Hispanic immigrants are doing a better job serving neighbor, therefore Christ, as cooks, maids, construction workers, etc. than American born Protestants. What In American is refer to as "dirty jobs," to a Catholic Immigrant is a means of providng for family and neighbor, and again, therefore Christ. And the poor immigrant has no legal papers, no education, cannot speak english, and probaly for that reason has more faith.
The Reformed Community is not growing compare to other religions. Any growth that the Reformed Church has had, has been mainly indirectly from the Reformed Community as a whole. For example, many reformed folks have become Christians because of Arminianism. Personally, I' am one.
My intention is not to open a can of worms. My intention is to analyze the state of the Church and better serve it. Here I am viewing the Church in Amercia in how it finds itself within the Black and Hispanic community in order to filled in what is lacking for its overall health.
If you disagreed, no problem, but why. Perhaps you can help me.
As a historical example,
Latin America and Northern Europe did not became Christian per see, because of books being published or because of the sword. It became Christian when Southern Europeans served in a Christ-like manner towards the indigenous people of those regions.
For this reason, in Latin Amercia and Southern Europe you cannot just write books, like in American and England, and expect for the people to change and become Reformed. The people need to see for themselves what your mouth and pen is boasting all about.
Writing a book nowadays has more to do with showing off intellectaully and making money, than with serving the Church of Christ because of Christ. Yes, we need the Sproul's, the Beeke's to write and teach, but we also need reformed folks to start servng our neighbors. therefore Christ. I will say that Reformed Protestant Churches need more of the Christ-like serving in action to better reflect our worshipped and pratice. This balance is missing.
With the U.S. of A, I will leave that to Christ and prayer.
With the Reformed Churches in the U.S., however, we need to demonstrate that true Christiantity is about doctrine, but in order to serve, in order to love our neighbor (wheter believer or unbeliever) as ourselves because of Christ, who love and gave himself. We don't give ourselves. That is the real fruit of the doctrine of Justification.
I think that is why the Reformed Community is not growing. There is not much fruit to spread its seeds.
In this regard, I think Catholic Hispanic immigrants are doing a better job serving neighbor, therefore Christ, as cooks, maids, construction workers, etc. than American born Protestants. What In American is refer to as "dirty jobs," to a Catholic Immigrant is a means of providng for family and neighbor, and again, therefore Christ. And the poor immigrant has no legal papers, no education, cannot speak english, and probaly for that reason has more faith.
The Reformed Community is not growing compare to other religions. Any growth that the Reformed Church has had, has been mainly indirectly from the Reformed Community as a whole. For example, many reformed folks have become Christians because of Arminianism. Personally, I' am one.
My intention is not to open a can of worms. My intention is to analyze the state of the Church and better serve it. Here I am viewing the Church in Amercia in how it finds itself within the Black and Hispanic community in order to filled in what is lacking for its overall health.
If you disagreed, no problem, but why. Perhaps you can help me.
Hello Gil. Let me help. I am not an American, and I haven't been to the US. I do agree that Reformed balance between doctrine and actual practice is missing many times. But I disagree with some of your observations.
From time to time, I do visit the denominational websites of NAPARC churches when doing research on vital doctrinal and ethical topics (including racial issues). So I get a lot of information about what is happening in the North American Reformed community. I am aware of what Reformed churches have done and have been doing in reaching out to minorities, and preach the gospel to them. This I think is the fruit of a prayerful reflection on the mistakes of Reformed churches in the past (especially the 19th century). The American Reformed churches are increasingly becoming multi-racial. There are Blacks, Asians (especially Koreans), and Hispanics in groups like the PCA, OPC and the URCs. (See the PCA-MTA website, for instance, for the racial make-up of the largest conservative Reformed denomination in America.) In fact, there are Reformed congregations which are predominantly non-White (e.g. KAPC). Last year, I was reading an edition of the OPC's New Horizons, and found an article discussing the planting of an OPC congregation in a Hispanic area. I think it was Puerto Rico, an American territory. There was a good combination of Blacks, White, and Mulattoes in the congregation. This is a proof that the Reformed faith has grown considerably.
Last year, a Filipino was ordained as a minister in the URCs. He is now in the Philippines working as a missionary, and pastors the congregation I attend. The minister who officiated the ordination service is an Indian. One of the URC pastors who attended the ordination was Black. And all of them are in a federation which is predominantly White. Dr. Scott Clark noted in his blog recently that another URC minister was ordained to serve in a Spanish-speaking congregation. So I disagree with your statement that the Reformed community is not growing compared to other religions. It has grown, and is continually growing as it is increasingly embracing people from every nation and tongue (Rev. 5:9). That may not bee easily seen in the numbers (as compared to, say, the SBC or AoG). But the fact that people of different races (including Blacks and Hispanics) are worshipping together as one in these churches says a lot about what Reformed churches by God's grace have accomplished.
The American federation assisting the small group of Filipino Reformed churches (which is presently organizing as a federation, and of which I am thinking of becoming a member) is the RCUS. They are in a sister relationship with your federation. This coming Sunday, the pastor who will lead our worship service is Rev. Gil Baloy, a Californian RCUS minister. Joel Beeke is coming to the Philippines to lecture on Reformed Theology this coming May. My pastor also told me that Mike Horton is going to hold a conference on Reformed Theology also next year. These I think are small but significant ways in which Reformed people are living out what they profess. About two months ago, a PB member and PCA layman, Scott Truax, traveled to my country not only to visit the family of his Filipino wife, but also to give lecture on Reformed Theology. I know you are viewing the Church in America. But these men are American. They are serving Christ, and loving their neighbors even if that means leaving their country temporarily. And they are just a small number of American Reformed believers who do this. There are American Reformed missionaries practically in every continent (except Antartica) of the world in obedience to the Great Commission. Also, there are various Reformed churches/denominations in different parts of Asia (like Indonesia, Malaysia and Burma) which would not have been possible apart from the missionary efforts of American Reformed missionaries. The Japan Presbytery of the RPCNA is an example. The Reformed Faith thus has really grown.
Lastly, I was born and raised in a culture that is not very different from that of Latin America. My surname is Medina (my mother's maiden name is Villanueva) which says a lot about the common history Filipinos share with Hispanics. My country is predominantly Roman Catholic, and millions are living in poverty. In the last two or three decades, there has been an increasing interest in Reformed Theology in my homeland. And the reason for the interest is the dissemination of Reformed and Puritan literature! The increase of Reformed Baptist churches and the reformation of spritually declining Reformed Paedo-Baptist ones is due to the reading of books and essays written by people like Calvin, Owen, Spurgeon, and Warfield. With the use of the internet, more and more people have been exposed to the Reformed faith. So I don't think that the writing of more books nowadays has simply become a showing off of intellectual prowess and a means of making money. Many non-native English speaking people and churches in the globe have been blessed by the publications of Banner of Truth and P&R Publishing (whether old or recent). I and the Reformed churches in this side of the globe (including those who reside in other East Asian and Southeast Asian countries) are a living example of that. If this could happen to Roman Catholic Philippines, it can happen to Roman Catholic Latin American countries (and to Roman Catholic Southern Europe) as well! Translation of these works (to Spanish and Portuguese) is the pressing need of the day. Some have done so. See monergismo.com
Disclaimer: Since I am not an American, I do not claim to be someone who knows what it really means to be a member of an American Reformed church. I don't and can't ultimately speak for Blacks and Hispanics in America. Reformed churches everywhere (not just in North America) still have a lot to do in dealing with racial issues, but I praise God that the ethnic and racial make-up of many of them has changed dramatically over the years especially in the major American and Canadian cities. This is consistent with the Reformed view of the Church. I simply wanted to give my on two of your assertions, namely, that the Reformed Faith is not growing vis-a-vis other religions, and that the writing of books nowadays has become more of a means for making money and showing off intellectually. Both are untrue. I disagree with you on this, but I agree with you that Reformed people in many ways are inconsistent in what they believe on the one hand, and what they actually do in practice (e.g. belief in the sovereign power of God in converting sinners, and actual evangelism).
As a historical example,
Latin America and Northern Europe did not became Christian per see, because of books being published or because of the sword. It became Christian when Southern Europeans served in a Christ-like manner towards the indigenous people of those regions.
For this reason, in Latin Amercia and Southern Europe you cannot just write books, like in American and England, and expect for the people to change and become Reformed. The people need to see for themselves what your mouth and pen is boasting all about.
Writing a book nowadays has more to do with showing off intellectaully and making money, than with serving the Church of Christ because of Christ. Yes, we need the Sproul's, the Beeke's to write and teach, but we also need reformed folks to start servng our neighbors. therefore Christ. I will say that Reformed Protestant Churches need more of the Christ-like serving in action to better reflect our worshipped and pratice. This balance is missing.
With the U.S. of A, I will leave that to Christ and prayer.
With the Reformed Churches in the U.S., however, we need to demonstrate that true Christiantity is about doctrine, but in order to serve, in order to love our neighbor (wheter believer or unbeliever) as ourselves because of Christ, who love and gave himself. We don't give ourselves. That is the real fruit of the doctrine of Justification.
I think that is why the Reformed Community is not growing. There is not much fruit to spread its seeds.
In this regard, I think Catholic Hispanic immigrants are doing a better job serving neighbor, therefore Christ, as cooks, maids, construction workers, etc. than American born Protestants. What In American is refer to as "dirty jobs," to a Catholic Immigrant is a means of providng for family and neighbor, and again, therefore Christ. And the poor immigrant has no legal papers, no education, cannot speak english, and probaly for that reason has more faith.
The Reformed Community is not growing compare to other religions. Any growth that the Reformed Church has had, has been mainly indirectly from the Reformed Community as a whole. For example, many reformed folks have become Christians because of Arminianism. Personally, I' am one.
My intention is not to open a can of worms. My intention is to analyze the state of the Church and better serve it. Here I am viewing the Church in Amercia in how it finds itself within the Black and Hispanic community in order to filled in what is lacking for its overall health.
If you disagreed, no problem, but why. Perhaps you can help me.
Hello Gil. Let me help. I am not an American, and I haven't been to the US. I do agree that Reformed balance between doctrine and actual practice is missing many times. But I disagree with some of your observations.
From time to time, I do visit the denominational websites of NAPARC churches when doing research on vital doctrinal and ethical topics (including racial issues). So I get a lot of information about what is happening in the North American Reformed community. I am aware of what Reformed churches have done and have been doing in reaching out to minorities, and preach the gospel to them. This I think is the fruit of a prayerful reflection on the mistakes of Reformed churches in the past (especially the 19th century). The American Reformed churches are increasingly becoming multi-racial. There are Blacks, Asians (especially Koreans), and Hispanics in groups like the PCA, OPC and the URCs. (See the PCA-MTA website, for instance, for the racial make-up of the largest conservative Reformed denomination in America.) In fact, there are Reformed congregations which are predominantly non-White (e.g. KAPC). Last year, I was reading an edition of the OPC's New Horizons, and found an article discussing the planting of an OPC congregation in a Hispanic area. I think it was Puerto Rico, an American territory. There was a good combination of Blacks, White, and Mulattoes in the congregation. This is a proof that the Reformed faith has grown considerably.
Last year, a Filipino was ordained as a minister in the URCs. He is now in the Philippines working as a missionary, and pastors the congregation I attend. The minister who officiated the ordination service is an Indian. One of the URC pastors who attended the ordination was Black. And all of them are in a federation which is predominantly White. Dr. Scott Clark noted in his blog recently that another URC minister was ordained to serve in a Spanish-speaking congregation. So I disagree with your statement that the Reformed community is not growing compared to other religions. It has grown, and is continually growing as it is increasingly embracing people from every nation and tongue (Rev. 5:9). That may not bee easily seen in the numbers (as compared to, say, the SBC or AoG). But the fact that people of different races (including Blacks and Hispanics) are worshipping together as one in these churches says a lot about what Reformed churches by God's grace have accomplished.
The American federation assisting the small group of Filipino Reformed churches (which is presently organizing as a federation, and of which I am thinking of becoming a member) is the RCUS. They are in a sister relationship with your federation. This coming Sunday, the pastor who will lead our worship service is Rev. Gil Baloy, a Californian RCUS minister. Joel Beeke is coming to the Philippines to lecture on Reformed Theology this coming May. My pastor also told me that Mike Horton is going to hold a conference on Reformed Theology also next year. These I think are small but significant ways in which Reformed people are living out what they profess. About two months ago, a PB member and PCA layman, Scott Truax, traveled to my country not only to visit the family of his Filipino wife, but also to give lecture on Reformed Theology. I know you are viewing the Church in America. But these men are American. They are serving Christ, and loving their neighbors even if that means leaving their country temporarily. And they are just a small number of American Reformed believers who do this. There are American Reformed missionaries practically in every continent (except Antartica) of the world in obedience to the Great Commission. Also, there are various Reformed churches/denominations in different parts of Asia (like Indonesia, Malaysia and Burma) which would not have been possible apart from the missionary efforts of American Reformed missionaries. The Japan Presbytery of the RPCNA is an example. The Reformed Faith thus has really grown.
Lastly, I was born and raised in a culture that is not very different from that of Latin America. My surname is Medina (my mother's maiden name is Villanueva) which says a lot about the common history Filipinos share with Hispanics. My country is predominantly Roman Catholic, and millions are living in poverty. In the last two or three decades, there has been an increasing interest in Reformed Theology in my homeland. And the reason for the interest is the dissemination of Reformed and Puritan literature! The increase of Reformed Baptist churches and the reformation of spritually declining Reformed Paedo-Baptist ones is due to the reading of books and essays written by people like Calvin, Owen, Spurgeon, and Warfield. With the use of the internet, more and more people have been exposed to the Reformed faith. So I don't think that the writing of more books nowadays has simply become a showing off of intellectual prowess and a means of making money. Many non-native English speaking people and churches in the globe have been blessed by the publications of Banner of Truth and P&R Publishing (whether old or recent). I and the Reformed churches in this side of the globe (including those who reside in other East Asian and Southeast Asian countries) are a living example of that. If this could happen to Roman Catholic Philippines, it can happen to Roman Catholic Latin American countries (and to Roman Catholic Southern Europe) as well! Translation of these works (to Spanish and Portuguese) is the pressing need of the day. Some have done so. See monergismo.com
Disclaimer: Since I am not an American, I do not claim to be someone who knows what it really means to be a member of an American Reformed church. I don't and can't ultimately speak for Blacks and Hispanics in America. Reformed churches everywhere (not just in North America) still have a lot to do in dealing with racial issues, but I praise God that the ethnic and racial make-up of many of them has changed dramatically over the years especially in the major American and Canadian cities. This is consistent with the Reformed view of the Church. I simply wanted to give my on two of your assertions, namely, that the Reformed Faith is not growing vis-a-vis other religions, and that the writing of books nowadays has become more of a means for making money and showing off intellectually. Both are untrue. I disagree with you on this, but I agree with you that Reformed people in many ways are inconsistent in what they believe on the one hand, and what they actually do in practice (e.g. belief in the sovereign power of God in converting sinners, and actual evangelism).
First, the original post was first about Anglo-American Protestants not having a spirit for giving themselves as servants, in a Christ like manner, according to Paul as found in Phil. 2. This is the case given by Anthony J. Carter in his book (see above).
This had nothing to do with a lack of "Reformed balance" in general, but with Anglo-American Reformed Protestants lack of servitude as when you said "I do agree that Reformed balance between doctrine and actual practice is missing many times."
Secondly, I said that the Reformed Church has grown in America, but it has grown "indirectly" overall, rather than directly as a result of Reformed Protestants being active in trying to win over people to the Reformed Faith. Didn't you yourself become Reformed as an Arminian "indirectly" when you read and listen to Reformed/Calvinistic sermons and when you "discovered Reformed Theology ironically while studying in a Roman Catholic university" according to your own biography.
I am very familar with what the RCUS is doing in the Philippians. And I prayed that the Lord continues to work there. Just imagine what would happen if the Filipino people would embrace the True Christian Faith and no longer be under the false superstitious brought upon by the papist.
However, I am sorry to tell you, but the reality is that it is going to take more than Reformed Books, Michael Horton and Joel Beeke conferences to convert the Filipino people to the Reformed faith. BTW, Joel Beeke has been to Brazil and Mexcio already to promote his books.
More Important
Did you know that the Filipino Reformed Church does not have to used the Westminster Confessional Standards nor the Three Forms of Unity in English or translated into Tagalog to be a Reformed Church. The Filipino Reformed Church does not have to learn English to be Reformed. The Filipino Reformed Church does not have to be or act "American" to be Reformed. Why? Because the Filipino Reformed Church can make up their owned Confessional Standards in Tagalog that will better suit the overall Filipino culture and people, as long it agrees with the teachings of the Bible, just like the WCS and the TFU do.
As a matter of fact, this is exactly what John Calvin told the English Reformers to do in England.
When this take place in your country, in Brazil, in Mexico, in France, wherever, then and only then, will this be because the Reformed Faith has triumph, like when Martin Luther turn Jesus into a "German" for the salvation of his people in his German Bible.
For the John Calvin 500 birthday celebration in Geneva, Switzerland this year, I will rather see all the reformed guest speakers outside the building sharing the Reformed faith to the people of Switzerland, than to have them inside a building talking and listening about John Calvin. Actually, that John Calvin 500 celebration conference makes my point.
For the John Calvin 500 birthday celebration in Geneva, Switzerland this year, I will rather see all the reformed guest speakers outside the building sharing the Reformed faith to the people of Switzerland, than to have them inside a building talking and listening about John Calvin.
Not to get too far off topic but I find it ironic that the whole reason Calvin had himself buried in an unmarked grave was to prevent the kind of "hero worship" and "man honoring" that is going on this year.
Albert,
The Filipino people do not need Owen, Spurgeon, Calvin etc. The filipino people need first the Preaching of the Gospel. That is also the point that Owen, Spurgeon, Calvin, would hade made. Now, if this is being done "indirectly" by these book, I have no problem; but do understand that this is not the norm of evangelizing. Don't forget that making disciples of Christ is the command.
This is a little off topic, but Tim Challies gave the following a very good review:
Amazon.com: The Decline of African American Theology: From Biblical Faith to Cultural Captivity: Thabiti M. Anyabwile, Mark A. Noll: Books