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Discussion in 'Family Forum' started by Bondman, Jan 9, 2007.
The fifth commandment trumps the fourth? Dad and God can share?
Colleen, we can all play "what if's". This is not about that. This is about: A. Honoring your father and mother B. Proclaiming the gospel to the lost. Mac's extended family may see it as a day to party, but what if Mac views it as A and B? I can handle your disagreeing on it from a sabbatarian point of view. I just think "what if's" don't help the discussion.
Chris, let me ask it this way. If your father lived with you, next door, whatever, would you consider sitting with him on a sunday afternoon? Would you talk to members of your own family on the Lords day?
I honestly can not imagine what the sabbath is like in someones house who thinks visiting and talking with you immediate family (!) is a violation of the Lords day.
Apples and oranges.
Kevin - I'm sorry but you can't eat an apple and an orange on the sabbath. That would be mixing fruit and I'm sure there is a prohibition against that somewhere!
IF my father lived with me or next door, whatever, yes I would consider sitting with him on a Sunday afternoon. Yes I would talk to members of my own family.
Would I celebrate a birthday (my own, my dads, my daughters, etc.)? No.
Bondman and I are very very good friends and cousins I might add. We were only kidding with one another. Sorry about the confusion.
How fine can we split the hair on this thread? How about if my father was having a birthday party but I chose not to celebrate the party? All I want to do is talk to my father so I ignore the party. My goodness! We can come up with a list of do's and don'ts for the Sabbath and be like the Pharisees. I don't think the matter is as black and white as some of my friends here on the PB are making it out to be.
Joe - good! I'm sorry if I raised an alarm. My apologies.
Why not just sit there then and let him "celebrate"?
Is "celebrating" an action? Or a state of mind (an emotion)?
I don't know what everyone else does at b-day parties but the ones we have are nothing like work. It would be just sitting down to a good meal with a few extra people and a better bottle of vino .
If pinning the tale on the donkey is too much like work, take a page (literally) from Joey Pipa's book and make it into a bible game. You know kinda like "pin the tale on Balaam's ass".
Bill and Chris...though from two angles...you both hit the point.
Bill, that is my point...we could play "what ifs" all day long. This thread, though a real situation, is a what if with all the "buts" included. Honestly, what witnessing is a person truely going to do at a birthday party? Is he really going to sit there and give his dad the gospel or rather to the point, is his dad and extended family really going to sit there and listen. More than likely they will be busy laughing and having a Party as that is the intent of getting together...not merely spending time in discussion.
Chris, I think you nailed it.
"Witnessing" is often times used as an excuse to compromise where a person really has no intent of witnessing (and no, I'm not presuming this is what the OP is thinking...generally speaking here). I've seen one person refuse his F and SM to stay at their house because of a "sin" he sees in their life. Yet the same person will stay at his IL's house, though committing the same "sin". The excuse is "well, we're witnessing to them".
Please invite me to your next birthday party!
OK, I think I have it.
I can vist my dad on Sunday.
I can eat lunch with him.
I can talk with him.
I can eat dessert with him.
BUT if there is a candel on the cake I am violating the Lords day?
Wonder if it depends on the family. Some of my family likes to push the envelope if they know there are certain things you won't do on the Sabbath.
Colleen - with all due respect, how do you know what the party is going to be like? It may be a quiet affair with family just kibitzing. That is what my last birthday was like. Nice dinner and visiting with family and friends. In fact, oft times you may see people at family gatherings that you normally do not. This is a perfect time to talk to them. But here we go again. Your characterization of a birthday party is a "what if." My more pedestrian birthday party is a "what if" also. No one knows until you get there.
God is central on all days, but our attention is by necessity distracted due to obligations pertaining to life. His people are graced with a day set apart from all others, so that we can rest from worldly distractions and spend one day out of seven with all attention on the public and private worship of God (which we as disciples embrace – or should). Birthday celebrations, no matter how they are conducted are centering focus on a carnal event which like the other six days restrains us from devoting our private and public attention to the worship of God.
This one day out of seven frees us so we can do what we desire to do all week, but cannot because of worldly obligations and distractions. If we could only be so free to focus all attention on God the other 6 days of the week, but we can’t. we must wait until glory for such to come, but until then we are graced with a taste of glory one day a week which is set apart for God and God alone.
Kevin - UNLESS the candle is there to present the cake as a burnt offering.
I do think it depends upon the nature of the birthday observance as much as anything. But I also think most of us know our relatives enough to know what kind of event it will be and whether we should go or not. I do, and I generally do not go, particularly when the celebration is moved to the Lord's day because everyone's busy schedule duing the week prevented the observance on the person's actual birthday!
Chris - okay....THAT explanation I can handle because it comes down strictly on your sabbatarian view. I disagree with you but I can appreciate your comments. We'll just agree to separate on this issue and pray the Lord gives us a better understanding in the event we are in error.
Keeping a commandment on the Lords day can Not be a violation of the fourth commandment. I think we all agree on this.
The dispute (it seems to me) centres on is this; does the fact that your fathers b-day falls on the Lords day mean you must not engage in activities that would otherwise be lawfull on the Sabbath. (i.e. eating, talking, visiting)
Is this a fair statement?
The Sabbath is the one day when ALL our attention must be directed toward God.
Bill, good points...that is why I added that it may depend on the family. I honestly don't know what an event like this entails for his family. If it were my extended family, they would make a big heydo that totally detracts the Lord from the day altogether. If it is just our immediate family, we have a pan of brownies after supper, the end. Hubby's family is somewhere in the middle.
To answer your first question, I would rather not. I see a difference between playing xxxx on Sunday morning (or going fishing on Sunday morning or entering your dog in a show that is on Sunday) and visiting my father on Sunday afternoon. Again I am outside my league. You all just carry on. I'll check in later.
I may have to join the Baptists.
No. The 4th is part of the first table and is part of the greatest commandment. The 5th is part of the second table and, while like the first, is not called the greatest so it must be below it in importance.
Both tables are perptual moral commandments. Rather, Rule 5 of WLC 99.[FONT="] [/FONT]What rules are to be observed for the right understanding of the ten commandments?
(5) That, what God forbids, is at no time to be done; (w) what he commands, is always our duty, (x) yet every particular duty is not to be done at all times. (y)
I cant picture God being pleased with people gathering together to honour a man (believer or non- believer) on the day that God sanctified unto Himself.
God is a jealous God.
How so? Of course neither fellowship nor speech are in and of themselves sinful activities in which to engage on the Lord's Day. But the key issue is what type of fellowship and speech goes on, what what is done and discussed during that time. If one is to draw any consistent line whatsoever anywhere in-between something like a football game and, say, a discussion on life, marriage or the Word over dinner with one's children, one must define certain types of fellowship and discussion as biblical on the Lord's Day, and other types as unbiblical.
I would not even call any and all birthday celebrations necessarily sinful in and of themselves on the Lord's Day. It could possibly done in the total context of a loose family worship type of setting, with a decided focus toward thanking God for His gifts of life, family, children, parents and fellowship. But as Christopher noted well above, a typical birthday party held by an unbeliever will be a far cry from that, and in many ways the type of discussion and activity present would most likely be non-differentiable in principle from that at a sports game.
Furthermore, of course Matthew himself could try to individually make his own contributions to the fellowship and discussion consist of a healthy, God-centered focus on life and family, but the vast majority of most people's focus and the discussion which would continually abide would not be God-centered in that way, and as such he would most likely be surrounded by unbiblical practice and discussion on the Lord's Day. It would likely be somewhat similar (again, non-differentiable in principle) to going to an unbelieving nephew's college football game on the Lord's Day, hoping oneself to only discuss and focus on God-centered things with the rest of the people, despite what they came there to do. In such a case, do you think such things would really become the sole focus of the outing? Hardly.
Apples and oranges? Not really.
My dad asks me to go to NFL games with him often. It would honour him if I were to go. When I deny his request, I am sure he is somewhat sad when he hangs up the phone. I have a choice to either honour man or God. I can make up tons of excuses why it would be ok to go, but it is not. No more excuses.