Biblical Argument For Spending Valuable Time Reading Fiction?

[JTB.SDG]

The godliest people I know don't read fiction or watch tv show or movies, or bother with sports: their conversation is full of Christ.

So not only reading fiction, but watching movies or sports is not permitted for believers? Or at least, less than ideal?

How about gardening? Is it more holy to read Thomas Boston or share the gospel to your non-Christian co-worker? How about carpentry? That probably doesn't pass the litmis test either, right? Is it more holy to preach than it is to be a gardener, as Adam was? Or a herdsman, as Abraham was? Or engage your time in carpentry? Better be careful, friend. I fear you are off in your understanding of what holiness is.

If you are open to taking any recommendations, one book I would urge you to read is Sensing Jesus, by Zach Eswine.

 

[JTB.SDG]

Gotta eat, brother!

I don't think that comment was meant for you Pergy.

 

[Clark-Tillian]

If your argument is that poetry had a subversive and destabilising effect on the Bolshevik regimes then you go a long to proving my point, don't you? It has power. Power to topple governments, indeed. So if it has this power then we should at least recognise in this discussion that poetry, novels, plays are not neutral or indifferent things. They can have very real consequences. They produce effects in those who read, hear, witness them. If they can shake up a society they can certainly affect our souls, our thinking, our emotions.

So the question becomes how is that power harnessed? You mention Milton. Paradise Lost is a wonderful epic poem. It is also deeply subversive when it comes to its treatment of God and satan. That is not a Christian poem. I would go almost as far as to say it is anti-Christian. It portrays satan as the hero rebelling against a tyrannical God. Can't really get more anti-Christian than that. But it is beuatiful poetry. Samson Agonistes is, if I recollect correctly it's been a long time since I read, a more Christian poem. But people don't talk so much about that one, do they?

I never asserted it didn't have "power", I agree with your point on that--now that you've made that point clear. Previously you warned of its "danger" without a qualifier, or a justification for the assertion.

I'm also not making the argument that literature is "neutral", as I don't think anything cultural is; I don't think anyone on the thread has attempted to argue that either. So we agree on that, as well.

You brought up using literature for its potential pedagogical benefit. Excellent point. Paradise Lost is speculative-imaginary literature because Holy Writ gives us precious little data on the revolt/fall of Satan, as opposed to say substitutionary-vicarious atonement, or the Fall of man.

We do, however, have sufficient data to conclude that Satan is evil, so we can easily employ Paradise Lost to place the truth in bold relief, in a comparative lit. manner. We could use The Screwtape Letters in a clear comp. lit. way against Paradise Lost. Knowing it is erroneous in its demonology also allows one to speak intelligently on the matter, and use it as a contact point with certain unbelievers, although very few unbelievers read anything of that length these days. It is powerful linguistically, as well.

Christians in the States are, in the main, viewed as ignorant, nose-picking morons. But if I'm talking to an educated pagan, and I break out Paradise Lost, Screwtape, and Holy Writ, and then proceed to detail Milton's use of erroneous demonology, I've at least represented the faith as having a capable, sound mind.

Milton could write an awfully fine English sentence, so we can use it to demonstrate the beauty of the English language--although my Latin aficionado brother claims it's for people too lazy to learn Latin! Such an epic won't fair well in a multiple choice test (I hate those), but it is excellent fodder for teaching analytical essay writing.

I'm admittedly high-brow, even snobbish, in my literary tastes. And although I appreciate Tolkien and Lewis, I dislike fantasy-lit, and allegory I find rather boring. I do not need an allegory--I'll just go to Proverbs, thank you very much.

Where we disagree is that I think the power of literature is a a force for good in right hands. Fine literature--not trash.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

The godliest people I know don't read fiction or watch tv show or movies, or bother with sports: their conversation is full of Christ.

So not only reading fiction, but watching movies or sports is not permitted for believers? Or at least, less than ideal?

Perhaps these comments might help to bring some unity here. For the record my country produced the Lord of the Ring's Movie, and leads the world in Rugby (almost )

It does seem to me that there are two key scriptural principles to guide us here: Phil 4:8 "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." Thus when we discuss movies or TV this is the fundamental principle to consider. Correct? If it does not pass the Phil 4:8 test a pastor can recommend his congregation not watch the movie or TV show. Jon, I think if you had guided others in this point it would bring more clarity to the discussion. Yes, I watch movies. I watch TV. But I must say in light of Phil 4:8, there are not that many that pass this test.

Eph 5:15-16 "Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, making the best use of the time, because the days are evil." I think those 2 verses are self explanatory.

I recently posted a note about my enjoyment of Vitringa's book "The Spiritual Life" I said it goes nicely with Teellinck's book "The Path of True Godliness". I said that both books are fine examples of the spirituality of the Nadere Reformatie. What impressed me about both these books is how 'strict' they were about ensuring all our activities enhance a godly spiritual and godly life. In short, do we have Christian liberty? Yes indeed! But let us use it wisely, redeeming the time, and ensure it enhances our spiritual maturity, and that of others.

 

[Clark-Tillian]

We stayed for a year of missionary furlough about 3 miles from Ferguson, Missouri, at the same time as the Michael Brown riots.

Good grief. Not a very relaxing time, I imagine. Hopefully, some profitable witnessing opportunities came your way.

 

[Pergamum]

Good grief. Not a very relaxing time, I imagine. Hopefully, some profitable witnessing opportunities came your way.

We got involved in a Ferguson church sometimes and my kids played baseball and floor hockey there with the local teams. A ray of light and a good influence in a dark place. The church community was nice and healthy and tried to do their best for a decaying community. We bought Christmas presents at the Toys R Us, right before it was looted and closed down. Got called an "Old White Cracka" while jogging, too. It is safer in my jungle tribe than in some parts of Saint Louis. It was what it was; I am not willing to sugar-coat it for the sake of political correctness.

 

[alexandermsmith]

So not only reading fiction, but watching movies or sports is not permitted for believers? Or at least, less than ideal?

How about gardening? Is it more holy to read Thomas Boston or share the gospel to your non-Christian co-worker? How about carpentry? That probably doesn't pass the litmis test either, right? Is it more holy to preach than it is to be a gardener, as Adam was? Or a herdsman, as Abraham was? Or engage your time in carpentry? Better be careful, friend. I fear you are off in your understanding of what holiness is.

If you are open to taking any recommendations, one book I would urge you to read is Sensing Jesus, by Zach Eswine.

What has carpentry to do with watching movies? We're just lumping any and all activities together now are we?

And Zach Eswine? Who has been published on the Gospel Coalition? LOL

 

[JTB.SDG]

What has carpentry to do with watching movies? We're just lumping any and all activities together now are we?

And Zach Eswine? Who has been published on the Gospel Coalition? LOL

Your arrogant spirit saddens me brother.

 

[Pergamum]

Your arrogant spirit saddens me brother.

I would assume our brother is just very careful. Maybe not arrogant. I have a friend on the mission field who I would describe as "overly scrupulous" and his conscience hurts him over many mundane and minor issues. It is its own punishment in a way because one's life is bound up in unnecessary strictness, but he is not arrogant. Just a bit tiresome over 2ndary issues. He just wants to honor the Lord. I think Alexandersmith may mellow in time. Hopefully he doesn't think he is more holy than us due to his greater strictness.

I do think it is legit to question all of our recreational activities. How much of what we are doing is vanity and useless for eternity? How hard must I work for God?

Perhaps to my dishonor, I've never really been bothered by that, though. I have worked hard for God out of love. He has given His life for me, so I can endure some hard work for Him.

But, if I can find some free time to chill out, I like to take it. To "clock out" and engage in some escapism is very welcome, especially when one has lived overseas (it seems needed to preserve the psyche sometimes when encountering culture-stress). Especially when sick, I love my chill-out time lest I be eaten up by feelings of inadequacy and worry over ministry needs not being met and unreached areas that I know of, but will probably not be reached by me due to my physical limitations. What to do? Well, praying for one thing. But I have never been a very long pray-er, but short frequent bursts (and again, maybe this is to my shame). But I say what I mean quickly and without flowery statements and then move on. During long times of sickness, after these prayers, I then look for something to occupy my mind in a pleasant way, some deep puritan works only serving to depress me further (and I do think that some people who dwell on some of the puritans develop unlikeable and brooding personalities instead of joyful countenances). Animal videos, watching the silly and imaginative play of my small children, or other pleasant ways to pass the time when sick seem to calm the soul and not stir it up to unpleasant feelings, such as of guilt, unfinished work, and depression.

And so I praise God for idle time and distractions from the pains of life.

Ecclesiastes tells us to eat, drink, and be merry, and enjoy the wife of our youth, and so I try to vigorously do these thins. When eating and drinking and being merry, we are not told to do so efficiently so as not to waste time, but it seems that God commands us to thoroughly and fully enjoy these activities. And so I try.

 

[JTB.SDG]

@alexandermsmith:

It's one thing to have personal convictions. But it's another thing to take those personal convictions and impose them on other people. It seemed to me that's what your comments were about. If I'm mistaken, forgive me.

When I was a younger believer, I was quick to judge others and quick to impose standards. I thought I was honoring God, because I wanted other people to pursue holiness. What I forgot was that the Lord has commanded us to neither take away from his law, nor add to it. I was actually adding to God's law, though I didn't think of it that way. That's what I'm reacting to here. Another Scripture that comes to mind is what Paul says in Colossians 2: "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 'Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!' (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence." I may be wrong, but it seems to me that these kinds of questions fall into this sort of category. Dancing can lead to bad stuff, therefore we shouldn't dance. Alcohol can lead to bad stuff, therefore you shouldn't ever drink wine. etc. The problem is that it doesn't actually deal with the heart, which is from where true gospel change takes place. When we are abiding in God's word and walking in His Spirit, He leads us into all truth. We develop convictions based on what we're learning, and how He's molding us. The wine begins to mold the wineskin. But to impose a wineskin of rules and regulations from the outset, which are all grey areas that God has not explicitly said anything about in His Word, not only, as I see it, adds to God's Word, but it also puts the cart before the horse. It seems to me this was the mistake of the Pharisees.

Brother, I'm not trying to accuse you of being a Pharisee. And forgive me for the ways my own pride came out and the ways I have sinned against you with my words. I'm a sinner. I need Jesus. I hope I can at least communicate these are my concerns. If I've misunderstood the intent or thrust of your comments, please forgive me. Thanks and Blessings.

 

[alexandermsmith]

@alexandermsmith:

It's one thing to have personal convictions. But it's another thing to take those personal convictions and impose them on other people. It seemed to me that's what your comments were about. If I'm mistaken, forgive me.

When I was a younger believer, I was quick to judge others and quick to impose standards. I thought I was honoring God, because I wanted other people to pursue holiness. What I forgot was that the Lord has commanded us to neither take away from his law, nor add to it. I was actually adding to God's law, though I didn't think of it that way. That's what I'm reacting to here. Another Scripture that comes to mind is what Paul says in Colossians 2: "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 'Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!' (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence." I may be wrong, but it seems to me that these kinds of questions fall into this sort of category. Dancing can lead to bad stuff, therefore we shouldn't dance. Alcohol can lead to bad stuff, therefore you shouldn't ever drink wine. etc. The problem is that it doesn't actually deal with the heart, which is from where true gospel change takes place. When we are abiding in God's word and walking in His Spirit, He leads us into all truth. We develop convictions based on what we're learning, and how He's molding us. The wine begins to mold the wineskin. But to impose a wineskin of rules and regulations from the outset, which are all grey areas that God has not explicitly said anything about in His Word, not only, as I see it, adds to God's Word, but it also puts the cart before the horse. It seems to me this was the mistake of the Pharisees.

Brother, I'm not trying to accuse you of being a Pharisee. And forgive me for the ways my own pride came out and the ways I have sinned against you with my words. I'm a sinner. I need Jesus. I hope I can at least communicate these are my concerns. If I've misunderstood the intent or thrust of your comments, please forgive me. Thanks and Blessings.

I wasn't offended so no need to worry about that. I appreciate what you say here. My only push back is that I think we just have different ideas of what the Law of God requires and prohibits in particulars. You believe it allows the reading of fiction and others things which I think it either prohibits or at the very least discourages. With all due respect when you write

"When I was a younger believer, I was quick to judge others and quick to impose standards. I thought I was honoring God, because I wanted other people to pursue holiness. What I forgot was that the Lord has commanded us to neither take away from his law, nor add to it. I was actually adding to God's law, though I didn't think of it that way."

you're making the assumption that your application of the Law is the correct one and I am adding to the Law (intentionally or not). Obviously we both think our application of the Law is correct otherwise we wouldn't be making the arguments we do. However what I get from those on your side of this discussion is that it is "obvious" and "accepted" that your side's view is the correct one. I don't agree. Often the only (or at least the main) argument offered is "Christian liberty" and then I have to repeat myself that Christian liberty does not, in my opinion, apply in these cases. The Westminster Confession defines Christian liberty as primarily freedom from sin and liberty to serve Christ. It is also freedom from the doctrines of men, but in the context of worshipping God. Too often the blanket statement "we are free in Christ" or words to the affect are proffered as a check mate. But free from what?

But certainly there are no hurt feelings. I don't post here in some "this is what you all must do" sort of way. I just come here to engage and give my opinions on things. What people do with that is up to them. They are free to discard what I say.