What about spending time discussing trivial matters like fast-food chains?
Gotta eat, brother!
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What about spending time discussing trivial matters like fast-food chains?
Everytime I hear about Popeye's it's in the context of a mass riot in or around the property.
As someone who studied English Literature at University and was very fond of reading fiction up to the end of my course I can say without any hesitation there is absolutely no Biblical argument nor justification for wasting one's time reading it.
The argument that fiction was used by the Holy Spirit in the Bible, or utilised by believers in the Bible, is facile. Again as someone who studied this subject what we find is Scripture is not fiction. Allegories are allegories. They may be expanded into fiction but the mere use of an allegory, or a hypothetical situation, is not fiction. To suggest that because Christ used parables therefore I can read the Lord of the Rings is wrong. The two are not the same.
If the reading of fiction were harmless there would not have been the consistent testimony against it within the church for generations until recent times. Perhaps the rejection of fiction was not as widespread in the church as other things which have also recently become perfectly acceptable, but there has been a consistent teaching against it from the best of the church.
At the end of the day fiction is false. It didn't happen and no true spiritual benefit can be gained from falsehood or make believe. Fiction is designed to manipulate our emotions. It has no true spiritual substance. And people who wax lyrical about the truths of the human experience which are to be found in fiction I have to wonder at. We have the Bible. We have godly commentators of the Bible. Why go to the world for Truth? We already have it given to us by God in His revelation.
is prose absorbed through osmosis???
I would see no problem with your hypothetical scenario in an exam. We have hypotheticals/allegories in Scripture but they are not Fiction. I think when we're talking about fiction we're talking about novels/short stories. Literary works of fiction. Which is why I think using these examples of Scripture is a distraction. They are different in their nature. When these discussions are had we're talking, really, about novels. We're not talking about hypothetical exam questions. So by fiction I mean novels, short stories, plays, poetry. These are distinct forms of writing.
In terms of poetry I would also say Christians should avoid it. I suppose one could argue there isn't the time element because a poem is, typically, very short. But the dangers of poetry are the same as those of novels. And I know that eminent Christians of the past wrote religious poetry. Personally I won't read that.
As to art I think there is legitimate concern over non-representative art. Art which is representative of its subject matter is surely more fitting to the Chrsitian sensibility: orderly, true, clear, open, honest. Abstract art, I think, flows from a sensibility which is not wholesome. But art is a distinct form from fiction and should be considered as such, though there is overlap.
That is because Popeye's belongs in the hood. That's where they get their spicyness from...the streets.
If you said that in the States, at this moment in history, you'd have a rollicking good time fending off the invectives that'd come flying your way. LOL.
No doubt you remember I live in Middle Earth. In fact I live not far from Hobbiton - it is a popular Tourist site.I also read the the Hobit and the Lord of the Rings books.
Fully agree. I would also add Bunyan's Holy War. In fact I would say: read Part 1 and 2 of the Pilgrim's Progress, then The Holy War. I have said before to parents of teenagers that the Holy War is just as exciting as a Teenage computer war game but far more spiritually profitable!Everyone should read the Pilgrim's Progress. It has some of the best lived out theology.
I am not sold that if I would be spending time reading fiction, I otherwise would have been doing something productive at that time. Obviously, there needs to be wisdom, but unless you can prove that fiction itself is evil / not good ANYTIME, I think you can put it in a bucket of recreation.
Alexander,
I appreciate a lot of what you say.
A sincere question (bearing in mind you did a degree in English Literature): In your view, is there any legitimate place for literary fiction in education? I suppose this question is really twofold:
- Is fiction an appropriate/permissible component of education, at any stage of education (from infancy onwards)? I.e., if a Christian is organising the curriculum (whether for a Christian school or home-schooling), do you think it would be permissible to include any type of literary fiction at all?
- Regardless of where one comes out on the first question, would it be permissible for a Christian student (regardless of his own views on the merits) to read literary fiction if it were a required part of the syllabus?
Lurking behind these questions, I suppose, is the question of whether one views this primarily as a matter of the most profitable/wholesome way to use one's "leisure" time, or whether reading fiction is viewed as being inherently unlawful of itself.
I'm interpreting your words as denoting that poetry is somehow "dangerous" to one's soul", as opposed to "subversive to Marxist regimes". I respect your right to not imbibe. But my intellectual world would be rather barren if Anthony Hecht, TS Eliot, Czesław Miłosz, Milton, Homer, Virgil, Hopkins, Herbert, Seamus Heaney, Joseph Brodsky et. al were not on my shelves.
I have read Piigrim's Progress to my benefit many times over. I also read the the Hobit and the Lord of the Rings books. I have them in cover editions. Everyone should read the Pilgrim's Progress. It has some of the best lived out theology. I also endorse the theological novels of Richard Belcher.
What is your definition of evil?
Samson Agonistes is, if I recollect correctly it's been a long time since I read, a more Christian poem. But people don't talk so much about that one, do they?
Pilgrim's Progress is always the hard case in this discussion. However I don't think it's correct to equate it with Lord of the Rins. They are coming from two very different contexts, writers and with very different intentions.
He doesn't have to define it. The burden of proof is still on you.
This is special pleading.
If you are a Christian who says that all fiction is sinful you're going to find yourself in a tricky spot.
A number of objections and hypotheticals come immediately to mind. As soon as one has been dealt with (and, inevitably, hardly to the satisfaction of all parties), half a dozen more will be found in its place.
What is fiction? Who decides?
Are plays banned? What about historical plays? How much must a work be grounded in history before it is considered a work of fiction? How could such even be measured? Who would do the measuring?
Speaking of history, if the only profitable reading material is of things that are true (that is, not lies, as fiction has been labelled) how do we determine which that is? Caesar's Gallic War can hardly be trusted at all points.
Are there any situations where fiction might be permissible? Cultural studies? Telling bedtime stories to children? Singing ballads?
What other activities might fall under the category of toying with emotions (a criticism of fiction that was actually offered above)? If plays are out, then opera is, too, I suppose, but what about other music? Beethoven's Third Symphony does stir the heart, I'll admit.
What about folk songs? I can think of a few that aren't based in true events. (There once was a jolly swagman...)
If you are a Christian who says that all fiction is sin and you were to attempt to deal seriously with all of the many legitimate objections against your position, the result would be a work spanning volumes and filled with ever more intricate exceptions and explanations. By the time the manuscript was complete, though, I should hope that you had discovered something of the absurdity of your position.
Did I or did I not say that Pilgrim's Progress was a hard case?
Are you being serious? What burden of proof? I asked a simple question. He said something wasn't evil. That assumes an understanding of what evil is. In order to have a conversation we need to be working on the same assumptions. I'm interested in his understading of evil in particular. Also the question was addressed to him.
Lovely, yes.I suppose it's good no-one here has said all fiction is sinful then. We'll be spared the volumes and volumes of argument.
Lovely, yes.
So what is fiction? Lies, but not sin? Not sure how we work that out.
You know, I'm beginning to think you haven't quite thought this through.
You really should settle your own opinion on the matter. It's impossible to respond to vague and apparently contradictory statements. (Is it a lie or isn't it? Is it a sin or isn't it? "Maybe" doesn't cut it.)I've said there is a pedagogical element to some literature. I've said there is a falsehood to fiction. Does that make it the same as lying? Maybe. Maybe it's not exactly the same but still problematic.
Yes, His revealed Word. And speaking of His revealed Word, check out what Romans 14 says about binding consciences.Are there qualifications to this freedom? If so, what are they?
Is there freedom in Christ to work in your garden all day?There’s freedom in Christ to read fiction novels all day, every day?
I've eaten several times at Popeyes in Saint Louis and I was a distinct minority there every time (i.e. the only white customer. Every. Single. Time). The lady behind the counter even asked me one time, "You white boys like our fried chicken, too?" I replied, "This white boy does." And she just laughed and laughed at me. But this was before that fried chicken sandwich came out. If their fried chicken is that good, their sandwich might be a work of sorcery.
I predict a black comedian like Dave Chappelle will do a comedy bit on this truth and it will get lots of laughs. If a Midwestern white guy says the same thing = he must be part of the Klan. So, I'll wait for Chappelle's routine on the sandwich before I say anymore because black comedians in the US are often hilarious because they can get away with saying things we can't.
We stayed for a year of missionary furlough about 3 miles from Ferguson, Missouri, at the same time as the Michael Brown riots.You must've been in St. Louis City. My time there (96-02), I witnessed no Popeye's in the county. Personally, I like Lee's chicken if I'm not going to hit The Colonel up for some extra crispy/guaranteed angioplasty in 30 years, fried bird.