Biblical Argument For Spending Valuable Time Reading Fiction?

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alexandermsmith said:
As someone who studied English Literature at University and was very fond of reading fiction up to the end of my course I can say without any hesitation there is absolutely no Biblical argument nor justification for wasting one's time reading it.

The argument that fiction was used by the Holy Spirit in the Bible, or utilised by believers in the Bible, is facile. Again as someone who studied this subject what we find is Scripture is not fiction. Allegories are allegories. They may be expanded into fiction but the mere use of an allegory, or a hypothetical situation, is not fiction. To suggest that because Christ used parables therefore I can read the Lord of the Rings is wrong. The two are not the same.

If the reading of fiction were harmless there would not have been the consistent testimony against it within the church for generations until recent times. Perhaps the rejection of fiction was not as widespread in the church as other things which have also recently become perfectly acceptable, but there has been a consistent teaching against it from the best of the church.

At the end of the day fiction is false. It didn't happen and no true spiritual benefit can be gained from falsehood or make believe. Fiction is designed to manipulate our emotions. It has no true spiritual substance. And people who wax lyrical about the truths of the human experience which are to be found in fiction I have to wonder at. We have the Bible. We have godly commentators of the Bible. Why go to the world for Truth? We already have it given to us by God in His revelation.
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Alexander,

I appreciate a lot of what you say.

A sincere question (bearing in mind you did a degree in English Literature): In your view, is there any legitimate place for literary fiction in education? I suppose this question is really twofold:

  • Is fiction an appropriate/permissible component of education, at any stage of education (from infancy onwards)? I.e., if a Christian is organising the curriculum (whether for a Christian school or home-schooling), do you think it would be permissible to include any type of literary fiction at all?

  • Regardless of where one comes out on the first question, would it be permissible for a Christian student (regardless of his own views on the merits) to read literary fiction if it were a required part of the syllabus?

Lurking behind these questions, I suppose, is the question of whether one views this primarily as a matter of the most profitable/wholesome way to use one's "leisure" time, or whether reading fiction is viewed as being inherently unlawful of itself.
 
alexandermsmith said:
I would see no problem with your hypothetical scenario in an exam. We have hypotheticals/allegories in Scripture but they are not Fiction. I think when we're talking about fiction we're talking about novels/short stories. Literary works of fiction. Which is why I think using these examples of Scripture is a distraction. They are different in their nature. When these discussions are had we're talking, really, about novels. We're not talking about hypothetical exam questions. So by fiction I mean novels, short stories, plays, poetry. These are distinct forms of writing.

In terms of poetry I would also say Christians should avoid it. I suppose one could argue there isn't the time element because a poem is, typically, very short. But the dangers of poetry are the same as those of novels. And I know that eminent Christians of the past wrote religious poetry. Personally I won't read that.

As to art I think there is legitimate concern over non-representative art. Art which is representative of its subject matter is surely more fitting to the Chrsitian sensibility: orderly, true, clear, open, honest. Abstract art, I think, flows from a sensibility which is not wholesome. But art is a distinct form from fiction and should be considered as such, though there is overlap.
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I'm interpreting your words as denoting that poetry is somehow "dangerous" to one's soul", as opposed to "subversive to Marxist regimes". I respect your right to not imbibe. But my intellectual world would be rather barren if Anthony Hecht, TS Eliot, Czesław Miłosz, Milton, Homer, Virgil, Hopkins, Herbert, Seamus Heaney, Joseph Brodsky et. al were not on my shelves.
 
Pergamum said:
That is because Popeye's belongs in the hood. That's where they get their spicyness from...the streets.
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If you said that in the States, at this moment in history, you'd have a rollicking good time fending off the invectives that'd come flying your way. LOL.
 
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Clark-Tillian said:
If you said that in the States, at this moment in history, you'd have a rollicking good time fending off the invectives that'd come flying your way. LOL.
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I've eaten several times at Popeyes in Saint Louis and I was a distinct minority there every time (i.e. the only white customer. Every. Single. Time). The lady behind the counter even asked me one time, "You white boys like our fried chicken, too?" I replied, "This white boy does." And she just laughed and laughed at me. But this was before that fried chicken sandwich came out. If their fried chicken is that good, their sandwich might be a work of sorcery.

I predict a black comedian like Dave Chappelle will do a comedy bit on this truth and it will get lots of laughs. If a Midwestern white guy says the same thing = he must be part of the Klan. So, I'll wait for Chappelle's routine on the sandwich before I say anymore because black comedians in the US are often hilarious because they can get away with saying things we can't.
 
I have read Piigrim's Progress to my benefit many times over. I also read the the Hobit and the Lord of the Rings books. I have them in cover editions. Everyone should read the Pilgrim's Progress. It has some of the best lived out theology. I also endorse the theological novels of Richard Belcher.
 
PuritanCovenanter said:
I also read the the Hobit and the Lord of the Rings books.
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No doubt you remember I live in Middle Earth. In fact I live not far from Hobbiton - it is a popular Tourist site.
PuritanCovenanter said:
Everyone should read the Pilgrim's Progress. It has some of the best lived out theology.
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Fully agree. I would also add Bunyan's Holy War. In fact I would say: read Part 1 and 2 of the Pilgrim's Progress, then The Holy War. I have said before to parents of teenagers that the Holy War is just as exciting as a Teenage computer war game but far more spiritually profitable!
 
On God's knowledge of fiction.

Q. Does God know all things?
A. Yes, God knows all things past present and future perfectly having decreed all that has or will come to pass. But God's knowledge extends even to things that do not exist, to all possible and impossible worlds and thoughts and dreams of men and angels and devils. And all this is but the beginning of His knowledge. God has equal knowledge of everything that exists, that does not exist and that could not exist.

Example: I racked my brain over many possible fictitious examples of God's infinite knowledge but the ideas so blew my mind that I decided to forbear. Perhaps you wish to give an example?

Psalms 139:1‭-‬6 KJV
O Lord , thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord , thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.​
 
Kinghezy said:
I am not sold that if I would be spending time reading fiction, I otherwise would have been doing something productive at that time. Obviously, there needs to be wisdom, but unless you can prove that fiction itself is evil / not good ANYTIME, I think you can put it in a bucket of recreation.
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What is your definition of evil?
 
Jie-Huli said:
Alexander,

I appreciate a lot of what you say.

A sincere question (bearing in mind you did a degree in English Literature): In your view, is there any legitimate place for literary fiction in education? I suppose this question is really twofold:

  • Is fiction an appropriate/permissible component of education, at any stage of education (from infancy onwards)? I.e., if a Christian is organising the curriculum (whether for a Christian school or home-schooling), do you think it would be permissible to include any type of literary fiction at all?

  • Regardless of where one comes out on the first question, would it be permissible for a Christian student (regardless of his own views on the merits) to read literary fiction if it were a required part of the syllabus?

Lurking behind these questions, I suppose, is the question of whether one views this primarily as a matter of the most profitable/wholesome way to use one's "leisure" time, or whether reading fiction is viewed as being inherently unlawful of itself.
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My view, and I think this would have been the view of those who opposed reading fiction as recreation in the past, is that literature is a necessary component of the educational process and so is quite permissable within that context. People have made the point that the Reformers, Puritans quoted people like Homer. I'm sure these Christians would have read these works as part of their education. I do not deny that there are works of literature which have a pedagogical use. Even human philosophy can and has been very useful as a tool in the development of Christian doctrine, when it has been properly and carefully adapted to Christianity. There are also certain works of literature which are quite central to the culture of particular nations and acquaintance with such literature can enrich one's own experience as a member of that people. Shakespeare, for example, for the British. I think when we're talking about recreation, however, and for personal enjoyment fiction becomes particularly problematic.

I also recognise that there are differences amongst works of fiction. Some are more wicked than others. But even the best of fiction is false and I question that real spiritual benefit can be obtained from reading a made up story about people who never existed.

So I would say that is more an issue of the use of one's time and how wholesome a recreation it is. However falsehood and artifice are to be rejected by the Christian and that does play a major component in fiction. I don't see how the fact we know it is false somehow neutralises that problem.
 
Clark-Tillian said:
I'm interpreting your words as denoting that poetry is somehow "dangerous" to one's soul", as opposed to "subversive to Marxist regimes". I respect your right to not imbibe. But my intellectual world would be rather barren if Anthony Hecht, TS Eliot, Czesław Miłosz, Milton, Homer, Virgil, Hopkins, Herbert, Seamus Heaney, Joseph Brodsky et. al were not on my shelves.
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If your argument is that poetry had a subversive and destabilising effect on the Bolshevik regimes then you go a long to proving my point, don't you? It has power. Power to topple governments, indeed. So if it has this power then we should at least recognise in this discussion that poetry, novels, plays are not neutral or indifferent things. They can have very real consequences. They produce effects in those who read, hear, witness them. If they can shake up a society they can certainly affect our souls, our thinking, our emotions.

So the question becomes how is that power harnessed? You mention Milton. Paradise Lost is a wonderful epic poem. It is also deeply subversive when it comes to its treatment of God and satan. That is not a Christian poem. I would go almost as far as to say it is anti-Christian. It portrays satan as the hero rebelling against a tyrannical God. Can't really get more anti-Christian than that. But it is beuatiful poetry. Samson Agonistes is, if I recollect correctly it's been a long time since I read, a more Christian poem. But people don't talk so much about that one, do they?
 
PuritanCovenanter said:
I have read Piigrim's Progress to my benefit many times over. I also read the the Hobit and the Lord of the Rings books. I have them in cover editions. Everyone should read the Pilgrim's Progress. It has some of the best lived out theology. I also endorse the theological novels of Richard Belcher.
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Pilgrim's Progress is always the hard case in this discussion. However I don't think it's correct to equate it with Lord of the Rins. They are coming from two very different contexts, writers and with very different intentions.
 
If you are a Christian who says that all fiction is sinful you're going to find yourself in a tricky spot.

A number of objections and hypotheticals come immediately to mind. As soon as one has been dealt with (and, inevitably, hardly to the satisfaction of all parties), half a dozen more will be found in its place.


What is fiction? Who decides?

Are plays banned? What about historical plays? How much must a work be grounded in history before it is considered a work of fiction? How could such even be measured? Who would do the measuring?

Speaking of history, if the only profitable reading material is of things that are true (that is, not lies, as fiction has been labelled) how do we determine which that is? Caesar's Gallic War can hardly be trusted at all points.

Are there any situations where fiction might be permissible? Cultural studies? Telling bedtime stories to children? Singing ballads?

What other activities might fall under the category of toying with emotions (a criticism of fiction that was actually offered above)? If plays are out, then opera is, too, I suppose, but what about other music? Beethoven's Third Symphony does stir the heart, I'll admit.

What about folk songs? I can think of a few that aren't based in true events. (There once was a jolly swagman...)



If you are a Christian who says that all fiction is sin and you were to attempt to deal seriously with all of the many legitimate objections against your position, the result would be a work spanning volumes and filled with ever more intricate exceptions and explanations. By the time the manuscript was complete, though, I should hope that you had discovered something of the absurdity of your position.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
He doesn't have to define it. The burden of proof is still on you.
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Are you being serious? What burden of proof? I asked a simple question. He said something wasn't evil. That assumes an understanding of what evil is. In order to have a conversation we need to be working on the same assumptions. I'm interested in his understading of evil in particular. Also the question was addressed to him.
 
Tom Hart said:
If you are a Christian who says that all fiction is sinful you're going to find yourself in a tricky spot.

A number of objections and hypotheticals come immediately to mind. As soon as one has been dealt with (and, inevitably, hardly to the satisfaction of all parties), half a dozen more will be found in its place.


What is fiction? Who decides?

Are plays banned? What about historical plays? How much must a work be grounded in history before it is considered a work of fiction? How could such even be measured? Who would do the measuring?

Speaking of history, if the only profitable reading material is of things that are true (that is, not lies, as fiction has been labelled) how do we determine which that is? Caesar's Gallic War can hardly be trusted at all points.

Are there any situations where fiction might be permissible? Cultural studies? Telling bedtime stories to children? Singing ballads?

What other activities might fall under the category of toying with emotions (a criticism of fiction that was actually offered above)? If plays are out, then opera is, too, I suppose, but what about other music? Beethoven's Third Symphony does stir the heart, I'll admit.

What about folk songs? I can think of a few that aren't based in true events. (There once was a jolly swagman...)



If you are a Christian who says that all fiction is sin and you were to attempt to deal seriously with all of the many legitimate objections against your position, the result would be a work spanning volumes and filled with ever more intricate exceptions and explanations. By the time the manuscript was complete, though, I should hope that you had discovered something of the absurdity of your position.
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I suppose it's good no-one here has said all fiction is sinful then. We'll be spared the volumes and volumes of argument.
 
alexandermsmith said:
Are you being serious? What burden of proof? I asked a simple question. He said something wasn't evil. That assumes an understanding of what evil is. In order to have a conversation we need to be working on the same assumptions. I'm interested in his understading of evil in particular. Also the question was addressed to him.
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It's deflecting. He doesn't need to give definitions for everything.
 
alexandermsmith said:
I suppose it's good no-one here has said all fiction is sinful then. We'll be spared the volumes and volumes of argument.
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Lovely, yes.

So what is fiction? Lies, but not sin? Not sure how we work that out.

You know, I'm beginning to think you haven't quite thought this through.
 
Tom Hart said:
Lovely, yes.

So what is fiction? Lies, but not sin? Not sure how we work that out.

You know, I'm beginning to think you haven't quite thought this through.
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I've said there is a pedagogical element to some literature. I've said there is a falsehood to fiction. Does that make it the same as lying? Maybe. Maybe it's not exactly the same but still problematic. Maybe there's some of that "nuance" that some people seem to love so much. I started by saying that reading fiction is not a profitable use of time. That has been my main argument. In education there is a place for literature. Recreationally, I say no.

In terms of "thinking through arguments", as usual the argument in favour of reading fiction has been the usual pivot to "Christian liberty" as if that is some sort of gotcha. No explanation of the doctrine, no attempt to defend the use of that idea in this particular area, and the usual smirking and derision of those who dare to take a more conservative approach. Christian liberty is always used in these sorts of debate. I reject that it is applicable here. I reject such an application as at odds with the Westminster Confession's explanation of the doctrine. And no one has ever given me an argument to reconsider that opinion. Indeed, no argument has been given, period.
 
alexandermsmith said:
I've said there is a pedagogical element to some literature. I've said there is a falsehood to fiction. Does that make it the same as lying? Maybe. Maybe it's not exactly the same but still problematic.
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You really should settle your own opinion on the matter. It's impossible to respond to vague and apparently contradictory statements. (Is it a lie or isn't it? Is it a sin or isn't it? "Maybe" doesn't cut it.)
 
Pergamum said:
I've eaten several times at Popeyes in Saint Louis and I was a distinct minority there every time (i.e. the only white customer. Every. Single. Time). The lady behind the counter even asked me one time, "You white boys like our fried chicken, too?" I replied, "This white boy does." And she just laughed and laughed at me. But this was before that fried chicken sandwich came out. If their fried chicken is that good, their sandwich might be a work of sorcery.

I predict a black comedian like Dave Chappelle will do a comedy bit on this truth and it will get lots of laughs. If a Midwestern white guy says the same thing = he must be part of the Klan. So, I'll wait for Chappelle's routine on the sandwich before I say anymore because black comedians in the US are often hilarious because they can get away with saying things we can't.
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You must've been in St. Louis City. My time there (96-02), I witnessed no Popeye's in the county. Personally, I like Lee's chicken if I'm not going to hit The Colonel up for some extra crispy/guaranteed angioplasty in 30 years, fried bird.
 
Clark-Tillian said:
You must've been in St. Louis City. My time there (96-02), I witnessed no Popeye's in the county. Personally, I like Lee's chicken if I'm not going to hit The Colonel up for some extra crispy/guaranteed angioplasty in 30 years, fried bird.
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We stayed for a year of missionary furlough about 3 miles from Ferguson, Missouri, at the same time as the Michael Brown riots.
 
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