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From what I can gather, Edward's basic point is that grace does not abrogate nature and the Bible does not abolish common sense. If a four year old is not in a position to take an oath in things natural and civil, then how much less is it able to adequately participate in the mystery of holy communion.
I'd just like to start with Scripture, where is there a minimum age for this in Scripture? Let's start with what God says.
Edward's basic point is that grace does not abrogate nature and the Bible does not abolish common sense
I for one would like to see a discussion of the history of Presbyterian practice.
If a 5yr old says 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God', who are we to say the confession is false? Maybe it is, but we don't know that. In fact we can never know that. Is it not our duty to disciple our Children just like every other man or woman who professes Christ? This idea that people have to prove they are Christians by bearing all of this fruit as NEW Christians is silly to me.
If a 5yr old says 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God', who are we to say the confession is false? Maybe it is, but we don't know that. In fact we can never know that. Is it not our duty to disciple our Children just like every other man or woman who professes Christ? This idea that people have to prove they are Christians by bearing all of this fruit as NEW Christians is silly to me.
They have to be able to give a credible profession though. I'm assuming in an antipaedobaptist congregation the qualification for baptism is the same as that of admittance to the Lord's Supper in a Presbyterian congregation, i.e. a credible (accredited) profession of faith. A mere verbal confession of faith isn't- or at least shouldn't- be enough.
Are you saying the confession 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God' is not a credible profession of faith?
Again this has nothing to do with the Church or what God says in His word.Anglo-Saxon history
Once we begin to erect tradition as doctrine, we set in motion a web of pharisaical folly that can be expanded ad infinitum.
Using God's standard may require of us to do the hard pastoral work of exercising judgment and the sticky pastoral work of interacting with one another, all of us being sinners. But it is better than usurping Christ's authority in His church and creating rules and standards where He has not.
Since this thread has been derailed from its original topic, I've not wanted to derail it further. But no one has yet--to my surprise--mentioned what should be a signal part of this discussion--what the WLC has to say respecting it.
WLC 177 seems quite to the point: "Q. Wherein do the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's supper differ? A. The sacraments of baptism and the Lord's supper differ, in that baptism is to be administered but once, with water, to be a sign and seal of our regeneration and ingrafting into Christ, and that even to infants; whereas the Lord's supper is to be administered often, in the elements of bread and wine, to represent and exhibit Christ as spiritual nourishment to the soul, and to confirm our continuance and growth in him, and that only to such as are of years and ability to examine themselves."
If one goes back to WLC 169 and follows through to this point, you don't come away from that thinking that a four year old could do what is therein mentioned. Chris asks the right question then about the history of this, and I am not aware that up until comparatively recent times a session contemplated that a young child (less than 6 or 8) could or should be admitted to the Table of the Lord. For practical, developmental purposes, Calvin's 10-13 has generally been thought minimal.
I suspect that the push to admit children at increasingly earlier ages (and I have certainly detected such) is a dual reaction both to those who are thought to wait too late (you must be 16-18, a common practice among continental churches) and an attempt, perhaps, to head off the paedocommunionists (which the CRC now officially is) at the pass. This is all quite wrongheaded and dangerous for the church, in my estimation.
Sorry for further derailing, but I thought that the WLC must be brought into this discussion.
Peace,
Alan
Are you saying the confession 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God' is not a credible profession of faith?
I think he is saying that historical faith is not enough, as it is the faith of demons. I believe that communicants should make a profession of saving faith. That is not the same thing as demanding that they give a conversion narrative, however. In addition, the oversight should ensure that they are not doctrinally ignorant (especially concerning Eucharistic theology) and are not unrepentedly living in scandalous sin.
Are you saying the confession 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God' is not a credible profession of faith? If so, than perhaps your view could come across as wiser than God.
With work, one might be able to train a parrot to say that. It's probably a bit easier to train a 4 year old to say it.
as much as I see glimpses of faith in Christ, I do not yet recognize the level of maturity that I would want them to have before approaching the Table.
Are you saying the confession 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God' is not a credible profession of faith? If so, than perhaps your view could come across as wiser than God.
With work, one might be able to train a parrot to say that. It's probably a bit easier to train a 4 year old to say it.
You might take a look at Acts 2:38, and you might end up with fewer of what used to be called Carnal Christians.
as much as I see glimpses of faith in Christ, I do not yet recognize the level of maturity that I would want them to have before approaching the Table.
You are their father and know your children better than anyone in this area. With respect, allow me to address you with one challenge. We confess the Lord's Supper is a means of grace. When taken rightly, it is efficacious to the building up of our faith. You watch your children sin and fall and grieve their sin and seek the Lord's help in turning away from it. Could they not do this better, with the consistency and maturity you are looking for, if they came to His means of grace? How would you be doing in your walk with Christ if you went a year without the Lord's Supper?
Just a friendly challenge.
if there is a requirement to be met before a person is admitted then you don't admit the person as a means to meet that requirement.
You watch your children sin and fall and grieve their sin and seek the Lord's help in turning away from it. Could they not do this better, with the consistency and maturity you are looking for, if they came to His means of grace? How would you be doing in your walk with Christ if you went a year without the Lord's Supper?
Are you saying the confession 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God' is not a credible profession of faith? If so, than perhaps your view could come across as wiser than God. You can say 'a person needs to do this and he needs to do that first', but I think that enters into salvation by works- another conversation for a different day. My point is (from experience as a Baptist) there's no way to know if a persons profession is credible simply because they wrote out a lengthy testimony. Our confidence is no in our ability to maintain a 'regenerate' membership, rather, in the fact that Gid will separate the wheat from the tares on judgment day.
Please don't misunderstand me! I'm not saying we should 'do whatever' becuase we can't know the hearts of men, for that would be unbiblical as well. I'm just saying I do my very best to avoid Baptist dogma that's based on the wisdom of men and not the word of God. It's wrong to discredit children because they're children and we need to be reminded that the Lord is displeased with such behavior.
Btw, baptism and the Lords supper are not the same thing.
In my experience (four of my adult children are in non-denom (baptistic) churches), any Sunday school kid of 4 or 5 can say "I want Jesus in my heart" parroting what their teachers and parents coach them to say. Increasingly they become the subjects of baptism at much earlier ages than what they taught me growing up in a Baptist church. All of my 11 grandkids old enough to walk and talk have been encouraged by their parents to make such professions. And, if memory serves me, most of them were baptized by the time they reached age 6. A few of them are not to that age yet, so we will see how their parents and pastors handle it for them.
During my three decades as a Baptist pastor, I always refused to baptize young children. 9 was about the limit of my comfort. My argument was that since baptism was "merely symbolic" it would not hurt to wait until a child was old enough to truly know what he or she was doing.
Now, as a paedobaptist, such arguments ring hollow. However, here the practice in the churches is running contrary to the theology of good paedobaptists and credobaptists alike. It would not seem to be driven by a desire to bolster the baptismal stats. Baptist pastors I know have more integrity than that! But, after WWII we live in an age when denominational affiliation is fungible. People seem to move from one theology to another based on the church they attend, driven more by the available youth program, style of preaching, or children's ministry than by a conviction regarding baptism. Those coming from a paedobaptist background may put pressure on the pastor to baptize their child at the earliest possible time. Don't miss the grandparent angle either. Grandparents from churches that baptize infants may engage in a pretty sustained campaign to get their kids to baptize the grandkids, even if that family now worships in a credobaptist fellowship.
Are you saying the confession 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God' is not a credible profession of faith? If so, than perhaps your view could come across as wiser than God. You can say 'a person needs to do this and he needs to do that first', but I think that enters into salvation by works- another conversation for a different day. My point is (from experience as a Baptist) there's no way to know if a persons profession is credible simply because they wrote out a lengthy testimony. Our confidence is no in our ability to maintain a 'regenerate' membership, rather, in the fact that Gid will separate the wheat from the tares on judgment day.
Please don't misunderstand me! I'm not saying we should 'do whatever' becuase we can't know the hearts of men, for that would be unbiblical as well. I'm just saying I do my very best to avoid Baptist dogma that's based on the wisdom of men and not the word of God. It's wrong to discredit children because they're children and we need to be reminded that the Lord is displeased with such behavior.
Btw, baptism and the Lords supper are not the same thing.
If someone confesses "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" whilst at the same time going out at the weekend partying, or is engaging in a non-marital sexual relationship, or is a swearer, then I think the Session has every right- and duty- to question the credibility of that person's confession. A credible profession is a profession which is reflected in the person's walk and conversation. If a person makes such a profession, but shows no interest in living according to Scripture, spends his week in idleness and living in the world, reading novels, spending all their time playing video games, watching movies &c. then I think the Session should question how credible that profession is. This would particularly apply to children making such a profession as they are unlikely- one would hope!- to be out drinking &c.
Many young people grow up in the church and live an outwardly moral life but are as far from grace as the drunkard in the gutter or the prostitute on the street corner. Further, even, as they could be being hardened under the Gospel due to their refusal to go to Christ. This is why a mere verbal profession from our young people isn't enough.
The Session may not be able to "read the heart", but they can examine the person of their experiences of the Lord's work in their lives; for marks of grace. If these are not there then it doesn't matter how vehement he is in his profession, it's not a credible profession.
And I agree that Baptism and the Lord's Supper are different, with different qualifications. But I was looking at from an antipaedobaptist's perspective where, I assume, they treat the requirements for Baptism as similar to the requirements for admittance to the Lord's Supper in a Presbyterian church, i.e. a credible profession. I myself am Presbyterian.
Clearly Jesus is far more gracious than we are, and we should rejoice at the thought.
Am I looking for sinless perfection or some sort of really high standard? Not really.
Clearly Jesus is far more gracious than we are, and we should rejoice at the thought.
It is not gracious to confirm one in a life that is overtly contrary to following Christ. And let's be clear, that the Lord's supper is a confirming ordinance. The person who participates in the Lord's supper is, by a judgment of charity, considered to be in good standing and full communion with the body of Christ.
Video games have an indifferency about them. There are other factors which determine whether they are bad or not. Fornication is evil in itself. The two should not be brought into comparison in this discussion.
Does your wife ever buy clothes for your children a size too big? Mine does, especially with shoes. Why? Because the children have been growing since they were born. She would only buy their current size if they stopped growing, or if a disease stunted their growth. If children give profession of faith that they have been born of God, show sorrow for their sin, examine themselves, desire to follow Christ, can give answer for the nature of the Lord's Supper, but are not admitted due to misgivings about the level of their maturity, it is to say they are not growing. It is not reckless to admit such children and count upon growth taking place through their coming to the Table. It is trusting to God's means.