At what age do we stop Baptizing our children?
- Thread starter Roldan
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Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
The question of whther or not the child can believe is really not the issue. OF course they can believe. The issue from the peado perspective anyway, is whether or not the child stands on his own or still under his parents headship.
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Sailor
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
Ooh... I look forward to reading the paedo responses to this.
Come on boys, entertain me!
Come on boys, entertain me!
Roldan
Puritan Board Junior
[quote:f101b3dd14][i:f101b3dd14]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:f101b3dd14]
The issue from the peado perspective anyway, is whether or not the child stands on his own or still under his parents headship.
Puritan Sailor [/quote:f101b3dd14]
Thanx for clearing that up, for that is what I was trying to ask.
When is a child on his own or ceases to be under the parent's headship?
Thanx again Popeye. LOL:biggrin: corny huh?
The issue from the peado perspective anyway, is whether or not the child stands on his own or still under his parents headship.
Puritan Sailor [/quote:f101b3dd14]
Thanx for clearing that up, for that is what I was trying to ask.
When is a child on his own or ceases to be under the parent's headship?
Thanx again Popeye. LOL:biggrin: corny huh?
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
[quote:a019af77fe][i:a019af77fe]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:a019af77fe]
The question of whther or not the child can believe is really not the issue. OF course they can believe. The issue from the peado perspective anyway, is whether or not the child stands on his own or still under his parents headship.
Puritan Sailor [/quote:a019af77fe]
I think I should clarify this. I'm assuming the child has not professed faith yet in this scenario. If the child already believes then obviously they should be baptised with the parents too.
Oh I seem to have lost my spinach... Ah ga ga ga ga....
The question of whther or not the child can believe is really not the issue. OF course they can believe. The issue from the peado perspective anyway, is whether or not the child stands on his own or still under his parents headship.
Puritan Sailor [/quote:a019af77fe]
I think I should clarify this. I'm assuming the child has not professed faith yet in this scenario. If the child already believes then obviously they should be baptised with the parents too.
Oh I seem to have lost my spinach... Ah ga ga ga ga....
I can't help but think of the instances of household baptisms in Acts. There are no indicators of the age of any of the individuals, so one could assume that not only were there possibly infants, but wide variey of ages.
In our house, my daughter and 1st son were born before I became a paedo. My daughter professed faith recently so that solves the issue with her. However my son is 2 and we have another baby due in about 3 months. I am definitely having my new son and 2 year old baptized, and then have my daughter baptized on her profession of faith.
So my household will be covered on all counts.
In our house, my daughter and 1st son were born before I became a paedo. My daughter professed faith recently so that solves the issue with her. However my son is 2 and we have another baby due in about 3 months. I am definitely having my new son and 2 year old baptized, and then have my daughter baptized on her profession of faith.
So my household will be covered on all counts.
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
At what point would you excommunicate a "brother" from the church? After excommunication would they be deemed holy?
So we know there is a point where an apostasized child would not be deemed holy. If they were not apostasized then they would continue to be what we have presumed about them all along.
So we know there is a point where an apostasized child would not be deemed holy. If they were not apostasized then they would continue to be what we have presumed about them all along.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
[quote:761db952e7][i:761db952e7]Originally posted by Optimus[/i:761db952e7]
When do we NOT consider our children Holy?
[/quote:761db952e7]
Hmmm.... Let's say I'm a 70 year old Christian and my child is a 50 year old p0rn producer.
My vote is that the child isn't holy.
Drat! Matt, you posted before I could make my sarcastic post thus you stole my thunder!
[Edited on 1-7-2004 by SolaScriptura]
When do we NOT consider our children Holy?
[/quote:761db952e7]
Hmmm.... Let's say I'm a 70 year old Christian and my child is a 50 year old p0rn producer.
My vote is that the child isn't holy.
Drat! Matt, you posted before I could make my sarcastic post thus you stole my thunder!
[Edited on 1-7-2004 by SolaScriptura]
Roldan
Puritan Board Junior
[quote:7200be1669][i:7200be1669]Originally posted by Roldan[/i:7200be1669]
or If a parent comes to believe and has a child who is 10yrs old, does that parent baptize that child or does that child have the capability to believe savingly? [/quote:7200be1669]
Anyone?:saint:
or If a parent comes to believe and has a child who is 10yrs old, does that parent baptize that child or does that child have the capability to believe savingly? [/quote:7200be1669]
Anyone?:saint:
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Roldan,
If it was me, I would baptize. Point being, at that point, I am not so concerned with the splitting of the hair in regards to the childs understanding as much as my own. I would place the sign.
If it was me, I would baptize. Point being, at that point, I am not so concerned with the splitting of the hair in regards to the childs understanding as much as my own. I would place the sign.
kceaster
Puritan Board Junior
Roldan....
I think, federally, I should baptize any in my house who have not yet been baptized. They will live with me in a covenant house with a covenant worldview. We will be discipling them and they will be obedient to the teaching of the house. They have no choice in this.
If after they have left my house they choose to live a life opposed to the gospel, then their baptism is on their own head. They will be judged by God because they have tasted of the heavenly gift and have spurned it. They do not lose salvation because they never had it. The outward sign was applied. Yet, baptism is about what the Spirit does not about what we do.
I would not allow them to be communicant members until they were able to articulate faith in Christ and discern His body and blood. But other than the Table, I would baptize them and treat them as a covenant member with all the benefits we can have in this life.
In Christ,
KC
I think, federally, I should baptize any in my house who have not yet been baptized. They will live with me in a covenant house with a covenant worldview. We will be discipling them and they will be obedient to the teaching of the house. They have no choice in this.
If after they have left my house they choose to live a life opposed to the gospel, then their baptism is on their own head. They will be judged by God because they have tasted of the heavenly gift and have spurned it. They do not lose salvation because they never had it. The outward sign was applied. Yet, baptism is about what the Spirit does not about what we do.
I would not allow them to be communicant members until they were able to articulate faith in Christ and discern His body and blood. But other than the Table, I would baptize them and treat them as a covenant member with all the benefits we can have in this life.
In Christ,
KC
kceaster
Puritan Board Junior
Optimus...
[quote:e96b520d89][i:e96b520d89]Originally posted by Optimus[/i:e96b520d89]
thanx for postin kceaster,
So you would baptize your 16 year old son? (Not by his own proclaimation of faith, but by yours.) [/quote:e96b520d89]
I guess perhaps I should qualify that a bit. If he is living as a complete heathen and I can do nothing with him, I don't think I would baptize him. I think I would be much more apt to treat him as Deut. 21:18-21 dictates. Of course we may not stone him, but we would treat him as though he were a covenant breaker and put away the evil from among us as soon as he may be expelled from our household.
The laws of the land would dictate that. I would probably allow him to live with me until he graduates from high school.
As long as behavior may be maintained, though, that son or daughter may be baptized on my profession of faith, although I would encourage a genuine profession of faith from them.
My sons were baptized on their own profession of faith last year. Had they not been able to articulate their own faith, they would have been baptized anyway because they live in my household.
In Christ,
KC
[quote:e96b520d89][i:e96b520d89]Originally posted by Optimus[/i:e96b520d89]
thanx for postin kceaster,
So you would baptize your 16 year old son? (Not by his own proclaimation of faith, but by yours.) [/quote:e96b520d89]
I guess perhaps I should qualify that a bit. If he is living as a complete heathen and I can do nothing with him, I don't think I would baptize him. I think I would be much more apt to treat him as Deut. 21:18-21 dictates. Of course we may not stone him, but we would treat him as though he were a covenant breaker and put away the evil from among us as soon as he may be expelled from our household.
The laws of the land would dictate that. I would probably allow him to live with me until he graduates from high school.
As long as behavior may be maintained, though, that son or daughter may be baptized on my profession of faith, although I would encourage a genuine profession of faith from them.
My sons were baptized on their own profession of faith last year. Had they not been able to articulate their own faith, they would have been baptized anyway because they live in my household.
In Christ,
KC
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
Wow, you all may have triggered an idea for a paper for my CT work I have to do later for school. Maybe a paper on the Puritan Perspective of the "Age of Discernment" not to be confused with the nonsense surrounding the "age of accountability." I think that topic would be a good survey of the writings of the puritans since they spoke about this articulately.
A Question
This is before I was a member, so I may not have all the facts exactly right here. Our OPC decided to plant a church in Kentucky for several families who had been driving an hour and a half to join us for worship. There were quite a few children there who had never been baptized from infant to I think about 8 years old. The 8 year old had been asking quite a lot of questions about the Bible and her/his? parents thought that the child understood his guilt and would soon be saved.
The new church had no steady pastor at the time, and several churches would take turns sending elders and pastors there to preach. Our former pastor went there one Sunday to baptize all the children. They baptized the 8 year old along with the other children, even though the child seemed to be so close to conversion.
My question to the paedos is--Is it somehow preferable in your eyes to baptize a child [i:f17e28704b]based on the profession of the parents' faith[/i:f17e28704b] instead of based on the child's [i:f17e28704b]own[/i:f17e28704b] profession of faith?
If you had to call the shots there, what would you have done?
This is before I was a member, so I may not have all the facts exactly right here. Our OPC decided to plant a church in Kentucky for several families who had been driving an hour and a half to join us for worship. There were quite a few children there who had never been baptized from infant to I think about 8 years old. The 8 year old had been asking quite a lot of questions about the Bible and her/his? parents thought that the child understood his guilt and would soon be saved.
The new church had no steady pastor at the time, and several churches would take turns sending elders and pastors there to preach. Our former pastor went there one Sunday to baptize all the children. They baptized the 8 year old along with the other children, even though the child seemed to be so close to conversion.
My question to the paedos is--Is it somehow preferable in your eyes to baptize a child [i:f17e28704b]based on the profession of the parents' faith[/i:f17e28704b] instead of based on the child's [i:f17e28704b]own[/i:f17e28704b] profession of faith?
If you had to call the shots there, what would you have done?
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
[quote:8af7aa91de]
My question to the paedos is--Is it somehow preferable in your eyes to baptize a child based on the profession of the parents' faith instead of based on the child's own profession of faith?
[/quote:8af7aa91de]
Preferable or not, Covenant Theology teaches that the Bible makes this plain. Instacnes of Abraham's household is a perfect example. Ishmael had not professed faith, nor even Isaac. So, until we reach the "age of Discretion" (not the age of accountability) then we would baptize them. If the 8 year old came to understand these things, we would baptize him, and if he did not we would still baptize him. In either case, with covenant children, you have the sign placed on them by the proxy of the parent. But the parent must be a believer. (This was Edward's tension with his grandfather and how the half-way covenant came about in some respects.)
My question to the paedos is--Is it somehow preferable in your eyes to baptize a child based on the profession of the parents' faith instead of based on the child's own profession of faith?
[/quote:8af7aa91de]
Preferable or not, Covenant Theology teaches that the Bible makes this plain. Instacnes of Abraham's household is a perfect example. Ishmael had not professed faith, nor even Isaac. So, until we reach the "age of Discretion" (not the age of accountability) then we would baptize them. If the 8 year old came to understand these things, we would baptize him, and if he did not we would still baptize him. In either case, with covenant children, you have the sign placed on them by the proxy of the parent. But the parent must be a believer. (This was Edward's tension with his grandfather and how the half-way covenant came about in some respects.)
Roldan
Puritan Board Junior
[quote:8ab0af4568][i:8ab0af4568]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:8ab0af4568]
[quote:8ab0af4568]
My question to the paedos is--Is it somehow preferable in your eyes to baptize a child based on the profession of the parents' faith instead of based on the child's own profession of faith?
[/quote:8ab0af4568]
Preferable or not, Covenant Theology teaches that the Bible makes this plain. Instacnes of Abraham's household is a perfect example. Ishmael had not professed faith, nor even Isaac. So, until we reach the "age of Discretion" (not the age of accountability) then we would baptize them. If the 8 year old came to understand these things, we would baptize him, and if he did not we would still baptize him. In either case, with covenant children, you have the sign placed on them by the proxy of the parent. But the parent must be a believer. (This was Edward's tension with his grandfather and how the half-way covenant came about in some respects.) [/quote:8ab0af4568]
Excellent! Great point Dr. Webmaster
[quote:8ab0af4568]
My question to the paedos is--Is it somehow preferable in your eyes to baptize a child based on the profession of the parents' faith instead of based on the child's own profession of faith?
[/quote:8ab0af4568]
Preferable or not, Covenant Theology teaches that the Bible makes this plain. Instacnes of Abraham's household is a perfect example. Ishmael had not professed faith, nor even Isaac. So, until we reach the "age of Discretion" (not the age of accountability) then we would baptize them. If the 8 year old came to understand these things, we would baptize him, and if he did not we would still baptize him. In either case, with covenant children, you have the sign placed on them by the proxy of the parent. But the parent must be a believer. (This was Edward's tension with his grandfather and how the half-way covenant came about in some respects.) [/quote:8ab0af4568]
Excellent! Great point Dr. Webmaster
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Susan asks:
My question to the paedos is--Is it somehow preferable in your eyes to baptize a child based on the profession of the parents' faith instead of based on the child's own profession of faith?
Scott says:
Placing the sign is actually a by product of faith. We place the sign upon the child because of the command and promises of God.
My question to the paedos is--Is it somehow preferable in your eyes to baptize a child based on the profession of the parents' faith instead of based on the child's own profession of faith?
Scott says:
Placing the sign is actually a by product of faith. We place the sign upon the child because of the command and promises of God.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
If she is willing............
Her willingness would validate her faith.
Her willingness would validate her faith.
Tertullian
Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:f3535a949e][i:f3535a949e]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:f3535a949e]
If she is willing............
Her willingness would validate her faith. [/quote:f3535a949e]
So you don't believe in household Covenant theology but in individualistic profession? After all, Abraham administered the sign of the Covenant to his servants and everyone directly under his household regardless or their personel confession...
If she is willing............
Her willingness would validate her faith. [/quote:f3535a949e]
So you don't believe in household Covenant theology but in individualistic profession? After all, Abraham administered the sign of the Covenant to his servants and everyone directly under his household regardless or their personel confession...
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
[quote:c2090502cd][i:c2090502cd]Originally posted by Tertullian[/i:c2090502cd]
[quote:c2090502cd][i:c2090502cd]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:c2090502cd]
If she is willing............
Her willingness would validate her faith. [/quote:c2090502cd]
So you don't believe in household Covenant theology but in individualistic profession? After all, Abraham administered the sign of the Covenant to his servants and everyone directly under his household regardless or their personel confession... [/quote:c2090502cd]
No, I didn't say that. I do belive in household baptisms. However, what if grammy is not "willing"? Do I, by the neck, force her into the baptism. I guess I could use a squirt gun huh?
[Edited on 2-15-2004 by Scott Bushey]
[quote:c2090502cd][i:c2090502cd]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:c2090502cd]
If she is willing............
Her willingness would validate her faith. [/quote:c2090502cd]
So you don't believe in household Covenant theology but in individualistic profession? After all, Abraham administered the sign of the Covenant to his servants and everyone directly under his household regardless or their personel confession... [/quote:c2090502cd]
No, I didn't say that. I do belive in household baptisms. However, what if grammy is not "willing"? Do I, by the neck, force her into the baptism. I guess I could use a squirt gun huh?
[Edited on 2-15-2004 by Scott Bushey]
Tertullian
Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:3fbe25e98c][i:3fbe25e98c]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:3fbe25e98c]
[quote:3fbe25e98c][i:3fbe25e98c]Originally posted by Tertullian[/i:3fbe25e98c]
[quote:3fbe25e98c][i:3fbe25e98c]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:3fbe25e98c]
If she is willing............
Her willingness would validate her faith. [/quote:3fbe25e98c]
So you don't believe in household Covenant theology but in individualistic profession? After all, Abraham administered the sign of the Covenant to his servants and everyone directly under his household regardless or their personel confession... [/quote:3fbe25e98c]
No, I didn't say that. I do belive in household baptisms. However, what if grammy is not "willing"? Do I, by the neck, force her into the baptism. I guess I could use a squirt gun huh?
[Edited on 2-15-2004 by Scott Bushey] [/quote:3fbe25e98c]
good point, but what if grammy is willing but just has not yet made a prersonal profession, I mean doesn't your faith (if you are the household head) count for anything?
[quote:3fbe25e98c][i:3fbe25e98c]Originally posted by Tertullian[/i:3fbe25e98c]
[quote:3fbe25e98c][i:3fbe25e98c]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:3fbe25e98c]
If she is willing............
Her willingness would validate her faith. [/quote:3fbe25e98c]
So you don't believe in household Covenant theology but in individualistic profession? After all, Abraham administered the sign of the Covenant to his servants and everyone directly under his household regardless or their personel confession... [/quote:3fbe25e98c]
No, I didn't say that. I do belive in household baptisms. However, what if grammy is not "willing"? Do I, by the neck, force her into the baptism. I guess I could use a squirt gun huh?
[Edited on 2-15-2004 by Scott Bushey] [/quote:3fbe25e98c]
good point, but what if grammy is willing but just has not yet made a prersonal profession, I mean doesn't your faith (if you are the household head) count for anything?
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