Assurance, A Second Work? Only For Some Believers?

[AJ Castellitto]

I (as was Beeke) am ex-NRC .... Just to provide some context for my concern.... I'm very frustrated with what I bought into there.... But I'm still a believer of properly applied Reformed doctrine

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I think those last 2 posts bring more clarity....

I think I have the dependency part down, I still feel like a 'little faith' when it comes to the fruit.... But I have so many bad habits from a fairly godless upbringing & poor choices early on, that I feel I spend more time picking myself off the floor than making any spiritual progress

I think you missed the point because you keep talking, experientially, as if it is your work that progresses you spiritually. Christ testified in John 15:
"I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."

Paul testifies in Galatians 5:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.

Christ doesn't say: "Some of you who abide in me, will bear fruit" but declares that whoever abides in him will bear much fruit.

Paul doesn't testify that some who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh but describes the fruit of the Spirit, which the Spirit produces because it is by the Spirit that we abide in Christ. Paul tells the Galatians this after he points out the "bad habits" that some of them had become accustomed to because they looked to themselves for progress in holiness. Rather, he testifies that when we abide in the Spirit the fruits of the Spirit flower by the strength He supplies.

I have a related question though, in Reformed circles issues related to salvation are thoroughly dissected - earlier in this thread it was mentioned 'can you have true saving faith & lack assurance?'.... And we have many Reformed ministers who blush & hesitate when asked 'are you saved?'

But I think we are losing that childlike dependency in all of this - like the poor huckster testifies....

Let's break it down this way... Can you deny Jesus? Well, Peter denied Jesus, so I guess we can too.... But if you did would you weep bitterly? If the answer is yes, there is your assurance AND your faith!

I haven't met a Reformed minister who "blushes" at the question. Who are these "many" Reformed ministers who hesitate when asked if they are saved?

You also seem to despise those who actually spend time wrestling with these things. Just because something is "homespun" does not make it child-like in the sense of faith. It may be childish in terms of understanding but it is not childlike. Shooting from the hip is not the same thing as being renewed in one's thinking by the Scriptures. Paul, in Romans 12:1-2, doesn't say: "Forget all that stuff I just wrote to you because I don't want to get you bogged down in all the details. All you need to do is have a child-like faith and forget all that heavy stuff I just spent several pages describing to give you confidence in your salvation."

So, all we need is to know that Peter wept bitterly and if we weep bitterly then we can know we're saved? Is that what your saying? Esau wept bitterly as well. Ought I to read what the Scriptures say about that or is that too complicated?

Interesting, I think members in reformed churches are not concerned that a pastor is superior, they are concerned that the pastor is just as insecure as themselves.... That is the point of this thread.... A concern about much preaching & teaching and little actual faith & believing or real acknowledgement of it

The disdain you have for others drips from your language here. Is hypocrisy a threat? Yes. Does that mean that all that study of the Word and teaching about it can produce is hypocrisy? No.

Why would a member in a Church need to know that a minister is as insecure as they are? If a man comes to a minister who doubts that the Gospel is true for him, is the minister's only reply that is suitable is to tell him that he shares the same insecurity?

 

[jwithnell]

But I have so many bad habits from a fairly godless upbringing & poor choices early on, that I feel I spend more time picking myself off the floor than making any spiritual progress

That's OK! The Bible holds out all kinds of hope to you. Read it, trust in its objective truth, dust yourself off and keep on going.