arminian verses

Discussion in 'Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace' started by Preach, Apr 7, 2005.

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  1. Preach

    Preach Puritan Board Sophomore

    Here's the situation. I am working with a man who is just learning Calvinism (doctrines of grace). He is not an educated man so I can't even suggest books to read (ex. R.C. Sproul). He says he thinks the Bible teaches the doctrines of grace, but his hang up is with certain verses like John 3:16 "whosoever will". He is just having a difficult time reconciling the verses.


    So, I have decided to approach the issue with a role reversal. I am hoping that you all can set forth a dozen, or two dozen Arminian verses that seem to teach a person can lose his salvation.

    Like many Christians, this man clings tightly to the fact that he is secure in Christ. But I want to teach him to "beware the theology of the first glance".

    So, I am just going to ask him to read these so-called Arminian proof texts for loss of salvation. We meet every two weeks for discussion. I am not going to tell him why I want him to read the verses.

    So, would you all be so kind as to begin to list Arminian proof verses for loss of salvation?

    Thanks,
    Bobby
     
  2. kevin.carroll

    kevin.carroll Puritan Board Junior

    Hebrews 6:4-6 is a classic prooftext. Oddly enough, most Arminians will argue this verse teaches a believer can fall away and then teach that one can be saved again, ignoring the second half of verse 6!

    If your going to reason with this person, you will have to deal with his defective view of sin. I guarantee that is the heart of his problem. Once Total Depravity is understood, the rest makes sesne.
     
  3. Robin

    Robin Puritan Board Junior

    Bobby,

    The problem (for everybody) is when we prooftext. So don't go that route, OK?

    Teach your friend HOW to read Scripture in context -- in large chunks. Then compare Scripture with Scripture. Most all questions/problems are resolved by simply reading the whole chapter or story! Any person with a 3rd grade reading level can do this.

    A reason Arminians get John 3:16 off is that they don't read the whole chapter of of John 3 -- allowing the dialog between Jesus and Nicodemus to emerge. Btw, a good question to ask : is Jesus telling N. how it is? or is Jesus telling N. what to do? These two different styles of language in Scripture (indicative & imperative) are crucial to get right and keep in order: one before the other.

    John 3:16 is not there to be used as a prooftext. The chapter of John 3 - is about the real-historical exchange Jesus had with a Jewish Pharisee - struggling with His teachings. To discover the Truth, we must consider this. (Btw, verse divisions were not in the original Texts.)

    This premise is true for all of Scripture. Verse numbers are not important. Knowing what the point of Jesus' encounter with Nicodemus is! Likewise, for all other verses that are yanked-out of their context to support the Arminian claims - (or Jehovah Witnesses, for that matter.)

    While I'm on my soapbox.....I will add....it is shameful Christians are so ignorant due to their own lazyness -- wanting to fix the opposers of the Faith with a "To Do" list or engage is a "prooftext war." It's grevious to note that many believers never think to simply read the Text properly --- as basic as reading a newspaper or chocolate chip cookie recipe. Of course, that's the blight of our culture. (This needs to be said -- it's not meant at you, personally.)

    I could give you a list of the Arminian-Remonstrance verses that were defeated at the Canons of Dordt - but rather than handing you a fish...I'd much rather hand you a fishing pole and teach you how to fish. Try doing the above first and see what you think. You will be honoring your friend (or any opposition) by thinking God's thoughts after him --- this honors Christ, above all....which IS the whole point of defending The Faith to begin with!

    (Questions; comments; whining?)

    ;) :worms:

    Robin

    PS. Only after we understand the what (for example) of chapter 3/John, fully -- can we then take the question of who in "whosoever will" to other sections in the NT and notice the topical/catagorical connection to the sense of the word "who."
    Who is the who in "whosoever?"
     
  4. Jeff_Bartel

    Jeff_Bartel Puritan Board Graduate

    I think that Bobby is trying to show his friend that proof texting IS bad (when taken out of context). He is doing this through a "reductio ad absurdum" arguement, which is a perfectly valid method of logical argumentation.

    Show this guy how dumb his theology becomes if he is consistent! Point him to the passages that say God repents, and that God is not man that he should repent! But do all this to show the error of his way, and that he must accept a logically consistent God. God cannot contradict himself, unless he is the Arminian god.
     
  5. Robin

    Robin Puritan Board Junior

    Here is a Scriptural defense of the doctrine of "particular redemption" which is a response to the Arminian claims:

    http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/sratonement.htm

    I think it far better to be grounded in Scripture's right position on election...before poking around in the mis-readings of the Text.

    But that's just me...

    Meanwhile, the Canons of Dordt address, in line-items, the Arminian theology.

    :up:

    R.
     
  6. The Lamb

    The Lamb Puritan Board Freshman

    Bobby, Forget about the 5 points altogether.

    Ask this person, "WHat must we do to be saved?"

    Speak of the grace of God. This irresistible, pristine Grace that has been pushed aside leaving "calvinism" with predestination as its major proponent, when it is not.

    Until any person realizes they have no part in the salvation chain, they will remain self propelled.

    Whatever you speak of, MAKE sure you draw a B line to the Cross. Everything you say must glorify God.

    ANd also remember, it is up to the Holy SPirit to convert, God always provides the increase.


    Joseph
     
  7. Preach

    Preach Puritan Board Sophomore

    Thanks for the responses. I am teaching a basic oveerview of the Bible (in 20 lessons). Very basic course for new believers and those who are coming out of disp[ensationalism. Our church plant is comprised of the types.

    I cover the four basic areas of Scripture (creation, fall, salvation, consummatio). And I am showing the covenantal structure of the Scriptures (all at an eighth grade level-really). It;s been said that most people speak at this level in the United States.

    The people love the teaching and have commented that they have learned mopre about God in these (so far 12 lessons) than in years of church.

    The man I am spaeaking to has seen through the Scriptures many of the great doctrines simply by reading the passages. He says he agrees with them...but he is struggling.

    Given that contextual background, what would be your way of proceeding?
    Thanks,
    Bobby
     
  8. pastorway

    pastorway Puritan Board Senior

    I would not recommend the loss of salvation proof text approach as it may cause genuine confusion and wound this man's faith.

    Don't show him how to twist the Scripture, just dig in and deal with his questions.

    The point is that there is a free offer in the gospel. Whosoever will....

    But the invitation is not the problem. The fact is that unless God acts first (regeneration) then no one will come.

    Examine the work of the Spirit in regeneration and forget about the loss of salvation angle.

    Phillip

    [Edited on 4-8-05 by pastorway]
     
  9. Me Died Blue

    Me Died Blue Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    :ditto: to Phillip.

    Regarding John 3:16, I have always thought that to be one of the weakest verses used against Calvinism, and I did not even think it supported my position when I was an Arminian. It simply says that whoever will believe will have eternal life - and what Calvinism teaches to be predestined is simply who it is that will believe; but that does nothing to change the fact that whoever does receives eternal life. Pharoah would have received eternal life as a result of believing just as much as you or I did as a result of believing.
     
  10. Robin

    Robin Puritan Board Junior

    Wow, Bobby, what a wonderful opportunity!!

    I heartily agree with Pastor Way's emphasis, too! It's far better to ground him first --- in the Gospel -- treat his questions honestly, of course. But one plain evidence for his "doubt" of assurance is THAT HE HAS a doubt of assurance. (Unbelievers never think about this.)

    Another good thing to point out is it is NORMAL for a Christian to be caught in the daily, uncomfortable tension of knowing they are saved, yet struggling with sin. (Romans 6,7, 8.) Note, I didn't refer to verses...read Paul's account of this in those chapters in order.) This will be a huge eye-opener and relief.

    Blessings,

    R.

    [Edited on 4-8-2005 by Robin]
     
  11. Preach

    Preach Puritan Board Sophomore

    OK. You all have convinced me not to try a reductio approach. This man is a mighty warrior for Christ and a great family minister. I will simply take his verses and put them in context. We'll read the passages in chunks and walk through the what and the who.
    Thanks,
    Bobby

    p.s But regarding the t in tulip. Would you agree that until he really understands what total depravity means, he cannot understand the rest?

    He keeps saying that everything I have taught and he reads in Scripture affirms Calvinism, but he says he has a gnawing feeling. Of course he believes that faith preceeds regeneration.

    He says that the Holy Spirit works equally (he thinks) and externally on everyone but that he ultimately makes the decision.
     
  12. kevin.carroll

    kevin.carroll Puritan Board Junior

    Yes, his problem is his view of sin. Take him to Ephesians 1 and 2 and point out that the Scriptures paint us as dead in our trespasses and sins. Then you can ask him how many responsive corpses he's encountered.
     
  13. Robin

    Robin Puritan Board Junior

    Bobby...first, in kindness I say, he probably has an inappropriate zeal -- so don't be guided by emotions in people. Doctrine is the test. Teach him what the Scriptures say.

    Here is an amazing story that is important for Christians to know: Remember what Jesus was ragging on Nicodemus about? He scolded N. for his ignorance of the OT. Which Scripture/Text is He referring to? Ezekiel 36 - 37! Read the whole chapter one through to the next. Be patient and careful in your reading; pray the Holy Spirit illumines your mind to see the treasure of God's Truth:

    Ezekiel 36-Context: Israel has blown it again - God is jealous for His Holy Name. He re-states His covenant promises- which He initiates....
    A foretelling of the NT Church; Baptism in Christ; Regeneration and the Holy Spirit put in us (water symbolizes the HS and; note God says "I will, I will, I will"):
    Keep reading carefully......only regenerate hearts hate their own sins.....
    Please don't use these verses alone - read the whole story and keep going to chapter 37.

    Ezekiel 37 is the "valley of dry bones." There is no hope. The bones are dry, scattered...and when God asks Ezekiel "can these bones live" he wisely answers "O, Sovreign LORD, only you know." God commands Ezekiel to preach to the bones - (Gospel) the breath of God fills them; the bones assemble; they stand; flesh appears;they are resurrected and become a great army for the Lord.

    This is a prophesy about the NT church -- the Gospel regenerates the hearts of dead sinners via preaching (the Holy Spirit is in the Word.)

    Nicodemus, being a high scholar of the OT should have realized this Text pointed to Christ --- given that he had heard Christ's claims about what "born again" means (Jesus was NOT telling N. to born-himself-again -- i.e. DO something...)

    These verses (or story) has its NT counterpart/fulfillment, Btw. There's not enough space to write all of it.

    Remember, when God says "I will...." that is covenant language. God is Sovreign...so He must do what He says, or He is not God.

    With due respect to my brothers here, I say....give him the Gospel---it alone, is the power of God unto salvation. (At this point, don't bother figuring out his heart-- said as an apologist). Trust the Gospel...not methods. If the opportunity comes up to explain the Gospel...go for it.
     
  14. C. Matthew McMahon

    C. Matthew McMahon Christian Preacher

    Just to make it as easy as possible, here are ALL the Arminian verses in the Bible:
     
  15. Afore_Prepared

    Afore_Prepared Inactive User

    Wow. I love you, Dr. M...

    :lol::lol::lol:
     
  16. Robin

    Robin Puritan Board Junior

    :banghead:

    Of course....why didn't I think of that? This is how you got that doctorate, Mr. Fast-on-your-feet?

    :lol:

    R.

    [Edited on 4-10-2005 by Robin]
     
  17. C. Matthew McMahon

    C. Matthew McMahon Christian Preacher

    Sometimes a little humor adds volumes....
     
  18. kevin.carroll

    kevin.carroll Puritan Board Junior

    :lol:
     
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