Featured Aren't all Dispensationalists Baptists?

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929, Apr 15, 2019 at 5:20 PM.

  1. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    In other words, are there any non-confessional reformed paedobaptists that are dispensational? If so, on what grounds would they be paedobaptists, I wonder? We reformed are paedobaptist because of truly reformed Covenant Theology.
     
  2. SeanPatrickCornell

    SeanPatrickCornell Puritan Board Freshman

    Short answer to the question in the thread title: No. Not all Dispensationalists are or were Baptists.

    Take a read of this old thread from here on PB and see if this helps:

    https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/paedobaptists-who-are-also-dispensationalists.67483/

     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 6:19 PM
  3. Bill The Baptist

    Bill The Baptist Puritan Board Graduate

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  4. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    Thank you for this information.

    You see, I abhor John MacArthur's theology about the 1,000 years of animal sacrifices that to me symbolize a re-crucifying of Christ. In his study Bible and in his teachings he claims his literal interpretations of the animal sacrifices required in Ezekial are "memorials" for Christ, but Ezekial is clear that they are atoning sin offerings.

    And his horrific eschatology flows out of his dispensationalism and I have always reasoned that his dispensationalism flows out of a rejection of Reformed Covenant Theology which yields paedobaptism.

    I am shocked to learn from you that a Presbyterian who should be "Confessional" (but could not possibly have been so), and who is a paedobaptist could believe in this?

    Furthermore, they may be Calvinistic, but how could they possibly be reformed?

    Am I missing something?
     
  5. Edward

    Edward Puritan Board Doctor

    No. I heard a Dispensational preacher at a Bible church say that although he did believer's immersion for baptism because that was the practice of the church and the position of the elders but that he personally believed in infant baptism.

    Of course, I don't recall him staying there very long after that.
     
  6. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    THIS IS INTERESTING

    What you must believe to be Pre-millenial following the return of Christ:

    excerpts from “Problems with Premillennialism” by Sam Storms

    If you are a Premillennialist, whether Dispensational or not, there are several things with which you must reckon:

    1) You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ’s second coming.

    2) You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ’s second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the fall of man.

    3) You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

    4) You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.

    5) You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

    6) You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...u-must-believe-if-you-are-a-premillennialist/
     
  7. SeanPatrickCornell

    SeanPatrickCornell Puritan Board Freshman

    Just out of curiosity, are you under the impression that holding to the One Substance / Two Administration flavor of Covenant Theology is the only reason that exists on Earth for one to be a paedobaptist?
     
  8. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    Are you under the impression that the NT contains absolutely no "Covenantal Language" that hearkens back to the OT? Or, for example, does the "and your household" only truly mean to you what credo-baptists erroneously think it means which is not in an OT "context" like in James White verse Shisko baptism debate long ago? you see, I was credo and a big follower of James White (love his Church history teachings too) who use to be at your church, right? Didn't he leave and join Jeff Durbin? Sorry, I'm off topic

    But then I heard the Sproul verses MacArthur baptism debate and when RC Sproul mentioned the "covenantal Language" in the NT it had a resonating affect upon me that I can't describe or explain. I then started studying Covenant Theology and several years later emerged a paedobaptist. You see, children of believing parents are covenant children (the visible Church) and must receive the sign of the covenant.
     
  9. SeanPatrickCornell

    SeanPatrickCornell Puritan Board Freshman

    None of this answers (or even has anything to do with) the question I asked.

    And yes, Dr. White left my church and joined Apologia Church where Jeff Durbin is Pastor.

    Glad you loved the Church History lessons. I put a lot of effort into making sure they sounded good.
     
  10. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

  11. VictorBravo

    VictorBravo Administrator Staff Member

    Darby started as an Anglican. J. Vernon McGee was a Presbyterian.

    The Bible Presbyterian Church accepted dispensationals until later when they reaffirmed a commitment to covenant theology.
     
  12. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    Nevertheless, in the BPC's definition, (unless it has changed in recent years) pretrib was ok so long as one upheld the unity of the covenant of grace. There is a journal article by John Battle in which he said the church was overwhelmingly pre-trib in the 80s when Western Reformed Seminary was begun and that some didn't like it that he was post-trib.

    Now I understand that they've got some partial preterist ministers, etc. and I don't know to what degree they are a distinctively premil church anymore, (confessional revision notwithstanding) especially after the latest split.
     
  13. Jake

    Jake Puritan Board Junior

    I recommend reading Fundamentalism and American Culture by George Marsden, particularly the chapter: "VI. Dispensationalism and the Baconian Ideal". It shows how dispensationalism originated out of Reformed theology. As others have mentioned, the majority of early dispensationalists were paedo-baptists. Today I think it is still common in many Methodist/Weslyean churches which may also be paedo-baptist, though obviously not Reformed.
     
  14. psycheives

    psycheives Puritan Board Freshman

    - So Darby was Plymouth Brethren and I read he was influenced into his view by Irish Roman Catholics around 1820-30s.

    - Per Wiki: Scofield was raised Episcopalian; married a Roman Catholic; abandoned her and their two kids; might have gone to jail for forgery and bribes; began working for DL Moody in 1879; four years later 1883, he was ordained as a Congregationalist minister AS his wife was divorcing him for abandonment because he never came back:hunter:; and he married someone else that same year :hunter:; came under the mentorship of James H. Brookes (Presbyterian Dispensational); 1890 claimed to be a Doctor of Divinity but no record he actually was; moved among Congregationalist churches; Scofield left the liberalizing Congregational Church to become a Southern Presbyterian ... but he never held the theology, soooo..... 1914 founded Bible school. Non denom? I dunno; doesn't sound like he was really Presbyterian to me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019 at 1:22 AM
  15. psycheives

    psycheives Puritan Board Freshman

    Now James Hall Brookes was son of a Presbyterian minister and graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary and also pastor of a Presbyterian church, so I would say he counts. Also one of the most famous Dispensationalists ever. I would think these guys were sucked in by 1) Moody's evangelism and 2) End Times view. I think Moody sucked a lot of people in with his evangelism, including Calvinists.

    Perhaps not realizing all the problems with the system itself. Much like today's Dispensationalists - they mainly argue their view has to do with Church-Israel and End Times. They don't see all deeper and more important issues with OC vs NT like antinomianism, legalism, two ways of salvation, no union with Christ, having Christ's benefits without Christ, works salvation etc.

    Seemed Lewis Sperry Chafer certainly didn't see the issues with the system. If I recall right, MacArthur said he was the nicest guy ever and tried to avoid disputes in favor of showing grace. So I assume he must not have seen all the damage that even MacArthur called him out on.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019 at 1:26 AM

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