Are we to pray against God's plan?

[Dao]

Some would ask," Please pray for person X" How do we pray for things when God is omnipresence, omnipotence or omniscience? What I mean here is: God predestined for Person X to be in a certain condition. How are we to pray for something that wasn't predestined or planned for Person X. If we pray for David not to go to jail and at the same time, God planned David to go to jail for later purposes, wouldn't our prayers be useless and a waste of time. Would we hurt ourselves trying to change God's plan for person X. I remember in several movies when one dies and the other takes revenge while another suggest not to take revenge since it was God's plan for things to happen. Another example comes from another type of ancient prayer techniques is that the person X must ask for prayer himself and then the person being asked can pray since God predestined person X to do the asking or otherwise the person that prays for person X will do more harm to themselves.
I'm not sure if I'm asking the question right but in the charismatic style of prayer has some sort of command like a faith to cast a demon out or an order to change things. A "believe first and it shall be answered" type of prayer. Such prayer may go against God's plans. Are we to pray like 'hope' or are we to pray like a command? One example is another person asks me to pray for the person that rejects discussing the gospel due to our differences in belief. Another example would be: I prayed for something and become embarrassed that my prayer was ineffective due to God having other plans.
Seems to me that the person that needs prayer ought to ask for the prayers themselves as a permission to do so rather than the third party doing the asking.

 

[ewenlin]

Because my Father has already decided what is best for me doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't yet go to him in petition.

Jesus Himself prayed for relief in the garden, knowing all well what God's will was. Indeed that ought to be our model, "nevertheless, let thy will be done not mine."

We pray because we don't know what God's plans are.

Don't forget, petition and intercession, whilst important, are just a small part of the God given privilege of prayer.

Your examples are a little confusing and I'm not exactly sure what you're asking.

 

[Edward]

You should always include when petitioning something along the lines, "...but thy will, not mine, be done..." or "..if it be thy will"

 

[Herald]

Luke 22:42 (KJV) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Did our Lord not know that He was going to endure the cross and become sin? Why then did He pray this way? For the same reason we read that Jesus wept in John 11:35. Our Lord possessed full humanity, including the emotions and limitations of the flesh. He knew His Father's will, and perfectly submitted to it, but He also prayed from a human body, engaging a human mind. I believe we do the same when we pray. So long as our prayers are not motivated by sinful manipulation it is permissible to petition God, according to His will.

 

[LeeJUk]

I actually heard a great sermon from Alastair Begg on this issue,

First of all we are to pray about all things, as the scriptures command even when we don't know the will of God, for these things we should be recognising that God has made no promise to answer e.g. no verse that says that every christian will be healed. So for those types of prayers we leave them with God and trust that our petition will be answered if its his will but also if its not his will then they won't be answered. We still are commanded to pray about all things and to be anxious for nothing.

We also know that God uses us to pray, that the Spirit helps us to pray in the will of God (Romans 8) so therefore even though we may not know it, we can be fulfilling the predestined will of God by praying. Not 100 percent of the time sure, but a large amount. Someone described prayer as the Spirit inspiring us to pray, through the mediation of Christ, to the Father who will then do his will in answer to that prayer inspired by the Spirit in you.

At the end of the day we need to realise prayer is just simply speaking to God, that ultimately it's not going to come down to our amount of faith or our greatness of desire or our certainty of an answer when God really hasn't promised the thing we are asking for. We do however trust God has heard and will answer according to his goodness, mercy and love and own glory.

Now we also see in scripture certain promises that reveal the will of God, for these things we can be absolutely assured we will receive what we ask. e.g. wisdom in James 1:5.


Hope this helps.

 

[toddpedlar]

God's decrees are not within our ability to know prior to the fact. God's decrees are ALWAYS open to our eyes AFTER the fact.

The plainest way to think about this issue of prayer given God's omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence is to recognize our frailty as to what His plans are and to pray as our hearts desire.

I, too, am confused about why you're asking what you're asking. You seem to be picking up ideas from movies, from Eastern religion, from popular culture, etc., and thinking that they properly describe how prayer works. In a word, they do NOT. Simply read Scripture and see what it says about prayer. We see no examples of people trying to figure out what God will decree and making sure that they pray along those lines. We simply see people praying for others and asking for prayer. This is what we should follow.

A helpful book for thinking through issues surrounding prayer and the absolute Sovereignty of God is the following, by Douglas Kelly: If God Already Knows, Why Pray?

 

[TaylorOtwell]

13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (James 5:13-15)

In light of this passage, I simply pray with faith that a person would be restored to health without concerning myself about the predestined plans of God. I know that God works through means, including prayer.

 

[Dao]

(clipped). . . In light of this passage, I simply pray with faith that a person would be restored to health without concerning myself about the predestined plans of God. I know that God works through means, including prayer.

"pray with faith that a person would be restored to health" would mean that one would have confidence that the person would be healed regardless of God's plan. When the person is healed, he gains confidence. When the person isn't healed, he loses confidence. Faith would mean a high quality sense of belief rather than hope. Maybe I'm getting prayer and hope mixed up.
I might say, "It would seemed better if the person doesn't have cancer" rather than, "Be healed and go your way". If I say, " Maybe God wants him to have cancer", the Arminians would blast me and burn me on the stake like God has no influence to such evil events such as allowing (causing?) one to have cancer.

 

[au5t1n]

What if God gives you the desire to pray for something - even plead for something - because he intends to answer it? I have prayed in tears for lost friends to come to Christ, and I firmly believe God planted that desire because he already intended to fulfill it (and indeed, he has fulfilled it).

 

[toddpedlar]

(clipped). . . In light of this passage, I simply pray with faith that a person would be restored to health without concerning myself about the predestined plans of God. I know that God works through means, including prayer.

"pray with faith that a person would be restored to health" would mean that one would have confidence that the person would be healed regardless of God's plan.

I don't understand this at all. Why would such a statement mean that one has confidence "regardless of God's plan"? The text most certainly does not say anything at all like you have suggested. If it is not God's plan to do something then God will not do it.

When the person is healed, he gains confidence. When the person isn't healed, he loses confidence.

He loses confidence in what? If he understands God then he will not lose any confidence at all, for if he understands God, then he knows that God is gracious and will provide all that he needs (even if God chooses not to heal). If the lack of healing causes the person to lose confidence, then that is not indicative of any problem with God, but a problem with the person who loses confidence.

Faith would mean a high quality sense of belief rather than hope. Maybe I'm getting prayer and hope mixed up.
I might say, "It would seemed better if the person doesn't have cancer" rather than, "Be healed and go your way". If I say, " Maybe God wants him to have cancer", the Arminians would blast me and burn me on the stake like God has no influence to such evil events such as allowing (causing?) one to have cancer.

God causes people to have cancer, just as He ordains all afflictions. The question we must always be asking is not why God ordains this or that terrible thing to happen, but what we may learn from it, and how we may use those circumstances to better serve and glorify God. There can never be any question about God's sovereignty in every single event, or we are exercising a failure to believe God and take Him at His word.

 

[Herald]

(clipped). . . In light of this passage, I simply pray with faith that a person would be restored to health without concerning myself about the predestined plans of God. I know that God works through means, including prayer.

"pray with faith that a person would be restored to health" would mean that one would have confidence that the person would be healed regardless of God's plan. When the person is healed, he gains confidence. When the person isn't healed, he loses confidence. Faith would mean a high quality sense of belief rather than hope. Maybe I'm getting prayer and hope mixed up.
I might say, "It would seemed better if the person doesn't have cancer" rather than, "Be healed and go your way". If I say, " Maybe God wants him to have cancer", the Arminians would blast me and burn me on the stake like God has no influence to such evil events such as allowing (causing?) one to have cancer.

Why would your faith be shaken? If you are praying for God's will to be done would you not trust in that? Is not your faith strengthened because you are casting your cares upon He who loves you infinitely? When God says no to our prayers it is not because we lacked faith or that we are found working against God. God is pleased with your prayers, just as a father is pleased that his child comes to him.

When my daughter was very small she asked, "Daddy, can I marry you like mommy did?" I knew exactly why she asked that question. She loved her father and wanted to keep that close relationship. She perceived, in her five year old mind, that marriage was a way of really loving somebody. Of course, I had to tell her that I could not marry her, but I did tell her that our bond was just as strong as marriage, although in a different sense. She didn't understand any of my explanation except for the part that I was always going to remain her "Daddy."

Why did I share this anecdote? Our Heavenly Father is pleased when when we come to Him in prayer, even if He has to say no. We cry out to Him, "Abba! Father!" We have an intimacy, through Christ, that the sinner does not have. Even when our heat breaks because God's answer is not what we sought, we still can have the "peace that passes all understanding" by trusting completely in Him.

 

[Dao]

(clipped) . . .Your examples are a little confusing and I'm not exactly sure what you're asking.

I'm probably leaving out something or hiding a situation. I've been working hard to ~reform~ a certain type of martial art called tai chi. I've been to many schools and some, not, all are influenced by Buddhism, Taoism, Shamanism and other occultic worlds not accepted in the Christian world. Some schools don't have any occultic influence at all but they still indulge in the concept of a form of energy such as Qi (in China), Prana (in Indian), Ki (in Japan) and many others. I hope to teach or practice Tai chi in the light of God through his Word if all possible.
In my conversation with a Qigong (a sort of energy or belief system) therapist, the therapist told me that person has to ask for healing since the person ~IS~ doing the healing. If we use our own energy or a type of heavy prayer ritual to help help the person, then we will be drained of our efforts or harm our deepest place in our being. I was told to help coach the person in healing meaning help the person to ask or heal themselves. The Chrismatics will blast me for this since it is God that does the healing. The Pentecostal healing group have similar rituals like coaching the person into receiving the healing.
I was considering that 'coaching' a person to better themselves would be the appropriate technique rather than creating a belief that alters their healing without their permission or God's.
I'm not sure what I'm asking myself and probably made this topic confusing. I would rather investigate on what you guys say here and take the quotes to be the final answer. I saw something on the news where groups of Christians practicing "Christian Yoga" and many Hindu Indians protested against them for doing so. They were outraged and said it couldn't be done. I hope to do the same. Practice "Christian Tai chi" and I'm sure the Taoist, Buddhist or any tradition Chinese's group would protest against me.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Jacob wrestled with God.

The Syrophonecian woman would not abandon her petition to Jesus.

Sometimes the silence of heaven is deliberate, to press us on to greater faith and more urgent expressions.

 

[ewenlin]

(clipped) . . .Your examples are a little confusing and I'm not exactly sure what you're asking.

I'm probably leaving out something or hiding a situation. I've been working hard to ~reform~ a certain type of martial art called tai chi. I've been to many schools and some, not, all are influenced by Buddhism, Taoism, Shamanism and other occultic worlds not accepted in the Christian world. Some schools don't have any occultic influence at all but they still indulge in the concept of a form of energy such as Qi (in China), Prana (in Indian), Ki (in Japan) and many others. I hope to teach or practice Tai chi in the light of God through his Word if all possible.
In my conversation with a Qigong (a sort of energy or belief system) therapist, the therapist told me that person has to ask for healing since the person ~IS~ doing the healing. If we use our own energy or a type of heavy prayer ritual to help help the person, then we will be drained of our efforts or harm our deepest place in our being. I was told to help coach the person in healing meaning help the person to ask or heal themselves. The Chrismatics will blast me for this since it is God that does the healing. The Pentecostal healing group have similar rituals like coaching the person into receiving the healing.
I was considering that 'coaching' a person to better themselves would be the appropriate technique rather than creating a belief that alters their healing without their permission or God's.
I'm not sure what I'm asking myself and probably made this topic confusing. I would rather investigate on what you guys say here and take the quotes to be the final answer. I saw something on the news where groups of Christians practicing "Christian Yoga" and many Hindu Indians protested against them for doing so. They were outraged and said it couldn't be done. I hope to do the same. Practice "Christian Tai chi" and I'm sure the Taoist, Buddhist or any tradition Chinese's group would protest against me.

Brother, as an Asian on this board, though not knowing your background, I can only say you might be walking on dangerous grounds. I know some of those things you've mentioned (probably more than our American friends), and I wouldn't go near it personally.

-----Added 11/7/2009 at 10:54:54 EST-----

When my daughter was very small she asked, "Daddy, can I marry you like mommy did?" I knew exactly why she asked that question. She loved her father and wanted to keep that close relationship. She perceived, in her five year old mind, that marriage was a way of really loving somebody. Of course, I had to tell her that I could not marry her, but I did tell her that our bond was just as strong as marriage, although in a different sense. She didn't understand any of my explanation except for the part that I was always going to remain her "Daddy."

This must have made your day! Thanks for sharing this.

 

[toddpedlar]

(clipped) . . .Your examples are a little confusing and I'm not exactly sure what you're asking.

I'm probably leaving out something or hiding a situation. I've been working hard to ~reform~ a certain type of martial art called tai chi. I've been to many schools and some, not, all are influenced by Buddhism, Taoism, Shamanism and other occultic worlds not accepted in the Christian world. Some schools don't have any occultic influence at all but they still indulge in the concept of a form of energy such as Qi (in China), Prana (in Indian), Ki (in Japan) and many others. I hope to teach or practice Tai chi in the light of God through his Word if all possible.

I will be plain and upfront with you and say that you ought to flee this as quickly as possible and make no efforts to reform it. Your understanding of what is occultic and what is not occultic probably needs a little work - when you say that "some schools don't have any occultic influence at all" but then go on to say that they all indulge in the concept of a form of energy such as Qi..." you seem not to recognize that the entire idea of this form of energy is occultic at its very root.

Again - I would urge you to run away and separate yourself entirely from this practice. Merely my two cents.

 

[Herald]

(clipped) . . .Your examples are a little confusing and I'm not exactly sure what you're asking.

I'm probably leaving out something or hiding a situation. I've been working hard to ~reform~ a certain type of martial art called tai chi. I've been to many schools and some, not, all are influenced by Buddhism, Taoism, Shamanism and other occultic worlds not accepted in the Christian world. Some schools don't have any occultic influence at all but they still indulge in the concept of a form of energy such as Qi (in China), Prana (in Indian), Ki (in Japan) and many others. I hope to teach or practice Tai chi in the light of God through his Word if all possible.

I will be plain and upfront with you and say that you ought to flee this as quickly as possible and make no efforts to reform it. Your understanding of what is occultic and what is not occultic probably needs a little work - when you say that "some schools don't have any occultic influence at all" but then go on to say that they all indulge in the concept of a form of energy such as Qi..." you seem not to recognize that the entire idea of this form of energy is occultic at its very root.

Again - I would urge you to run away and separate yourself entirely from this practice. Merely my two cents.

Amen, amen, and amen.

 

[Dao]

(clipped). . . In light of this passage, I simply pray with faith that a person would be restored to health without concerning myself about the predestined plans of God. I know that God works through means, including prayer.

"pray with faith that a person would be restored to health" would mean that one would have confidence that the person would be healed regardless of God's plan.

I don't understand this at all. Why would such a statement mean that one has confidence "regardless of God's plan"? The text most certainly does not say anything at all like you have suggested. If it is not God's plan to do something then God will not do it.

I was referring to the use of another person's mind. Sometimes the mind can do unexplainable things to another person. Sometimes a person can command another person's tumor to vanish and still have medical proof in doing so. I'm saying that some Christians are still in an Arminian mindset and believe God's doesn't have a role in every event. The Calvinist would agree that "If it is not God's plan to do something then God will not do it." I would think it would degrade one's confidence when the healing doesn't take place. It would seem like coaching one into healing until everything is exhausted and then we can see God's Will. The biggest problem I hear from the Charismatics, televised preaching or some mainline churches is that healing is yours to receive and you must believe to receive. When the person isn't healed, they are the blame since their beliefs are weak or wrong. I hope to make sense of my questions and I'm familiar with a lot of healing groups that some here might think it's off the wall or biblical.

 

[toddpedlar]

"pray with faith that a person would be restored to health" would mean that one would have confidence that the person would be healed regardless of God's plan.

I don't understand this at all. Why would such a statement mean that one has confidence "regardless of God's plan"? The text most certainly does not say anything at all like you have suggested. If it is not God's plan to do something then God will not do it.

I was referring to the use of another person's mind. Sometimes the mind can do unexplainable things to another person. Sometimes a person can command another person's tumor to vanish and still have medical proof in doing so.

Now I'm totally confused. I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[au5t1n]

"pray with faith that a person would be restored to health" would mean that one would have confidence that the person would be healed regardless of God's plan.

I don't understand this at all. Why would such a statement mean that one has confidence "regardless of God's plan"? The text most certainly does not say anything at all like you have suggested. If it is not God's plan to do something then God will not do it.

I was referring to the use of another person's mind. Sometimes the mind can do unexplainable things to another person. Sometimes a person can command another person's tumor to vanish and still have medical proof in doing so. I'm saying that some Christians are still in an Arminian mindset and believe God's doesn't have a role in every event. The Calvinist would agree that "If it is not God's plan to do something then God will not do it." I would think it would degrade one's confidence when the healing doesn't take place. It would seem like coaching one into healing until everything is exhausted and then we can see God's Will. The biggest problem I hear from the Charismatics, televised preaching or some mainline churches is that healing is yours to receive and you must believe to receive. When the person isn't healed, they are the blame since their beliefs are weak or wrong. I hope to make sense of my questions and I'm familiar with a lot of healing groups that some here might think it's off the wall or biblical.

Dao, I may be misunderstanding you, but if you are wanting to coach people into self-healing, I would ask you to stay away from this practice. Even if it works (to a degree) by placebo effect, it is dangerous territory, spiritually speaking. You can ask God to heal someone, and trust that he will if it is his will. I don't recommend you do anything beyond that.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you.

 

[Dao]

Again - I would urge you to run away and separate yourself entirely from this practice. Merely my two cents.

Actually, They're fleeing from me. Some schools probably went out of business because of me, instead. I think I flush the demons from the schools and they feel empty or naked. They get rid of me. Some techniques are stolen from the men of God. Some Christians believe that some techniques belong to the demons. I will not give in and let the demon win their inventions when it belongs to God.
To make a long story short, some things viewed as cultic helps our soldiers fight in our wars.
I would welcome all two cents. There, I learn from valuable lessons from great thinkers here on this board. I'm not a Taoist, Buddhist or a Hinduist but I see many things that belongs to God and we must stand for the things that belong to God rather than have the occultist claim their inventions which might be stolen from God's people. Some things are obvious and belong to the devil but other things don't. Perhaps I'm trying to draw a fine line between humanism and the Bible instead of occultism and the Bible.
Please, do give your two cent worth.

-----Added 11/7/2009 at 11:56:28 EST-----

Now I'm totally confused. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I probably didn't ask the right question. I was hoping this topic would lead me to the right question. The topic should have been about the difference between prayer and predestination. I hope to learn from the viewers on this topic. I'm not sure how to narrow it down to a single question. I was hoping someone would rephrase my question but I can see I only made it more confusing. I hope I didn't break any rules here.