Are HOV lanes unjust?

[Timmay]

Our taxes go to public roads, yet if you don’t meet certain conditions, you can’t legally use the lane(s) that you’ve partially paid for.

And some HOV lanes also have a toll that you have to pay to get on them. So in a sense you’re being charged twice to use them, or if you don’t pay, others receive a travel advantage on a lane you paid into!

I don’t see how that CANNOT be unjust. And if so, is it right to disobey such laws?


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[C. M. Sheffield]

I don’t see how that CANNOT be unjust. And if so, is it right to disobey such laws?

It may not be wise transportation policy or law (like a great many things), but I don't believe you have a biblical grounds for disobeying them.

 

[Username3000]

I’d have to think that through.

But what about people who don’t have drivers licences? Their taxes go to pay for roads. Is that unjust?

 

[Timmay]

I’d have to think that through.

But what about people who don’t have drivers licences? Their taxes go to pay for roads. Is that unjust?

I think so.

It’s slightly different if they don’t voluntarily get a license. Then they aren’t being actively prohibited from using the road. They are paying into something that they DON’T use, not something they CAN’T use.


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[Username3000]

At any rate, we render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and pay our taxes. If he unjustly manages his roads, that is for him to deal with.

I don’t have the mental energy to think it through any further right now, sorry.

 

[Taylor]

We do not have biblical grounds to disobey all unjust laws, no. Just because something is unjust doesn’t give us the right to rebel. Now, if obeying a certain law causes us to beak God’s law, then of course we have every right to disobey. But being double charged for use of a road (which I agree with you that it is unjust) does not require the breaking of God’s law, so we must obey.

 

[bookslover]

And, during peak traffic hours, the HOV lanes are just as crowded (and just as stopped) as all the other lanes - at least here in southern California. Makes no sense.

 

[moral necessity]

Our taxes go to public roads, yet if you don’t meet certain conditions, you can’t legally use the lane(s) that you’ve partially paid for.

And some HOV lanes also have a toll that you have to pay to get on them. So in a sense you’re being charged twice to use them, or if you don’t pay, others receive a travel advantage on a lane you paid into!

I don’t see how that CANNOT be unjust. And if so, is it right to disobey such laws?


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Maybe you could see it as partially paying for the reduction in traffic along the normal road, so you don't have to deal with so many cars.

The ease of the HOV toll entices those who are willing to pay more to, in effect, spread the traffic out.

This might help ease someone's mind a little about it.

Nothing will be perfectly just in this world...this will make us long more for the one yet to come.

Blessings!

 

[Timmay]

Maybe you could see it as partially paying for the reduction in traffic along the normal road, so you don't have to deal with so many cars.

The ease of the HOV toll entices those who are willing to pay more to, in effect, spread the traffic out.

This might help ease someone's mind a little about it.

Nothing will be perfectly just in this world...this will make us long more for the one yet to come.

Blessings!

It doesn’t ease traffic though. For one people won’t pay the toll so those people who could get on it with just 2+ won’t anymore.

And besides that, think about it like the size of a pipe. You have a pipe six lanes wide but two of those lanes add conditions not everyone can meet or is willing to meet. So for most people you’ve now shrunk the width of the pipe to 4 lanes and have another pipe that is 2 lanes wide instead of one massive pipe 6 lanes wide.
It doesn’t alleviate traffic because it decreases potential maximum bandwidth for a majority of users.
The HOV policy is based on a pseudo claim that “car emissions cause green house gases which cause climate change.” If they really cared they’d make road conditions as alleviating of traffic as possible to increase average gas mileage and reduce emissions.


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[RamistThomist]

I don’t see how that CANNOT be unjust. And if so, is it right to disobey such laws?

Let's suppose they are unjust. And I don't think the govt takes care of our roads as much as people thinks, so the line "But who will take care of the roads if we don't pay taxes" doesn't work with me. The govt bungles that on a daily basis.

So let's suppose they are unjust. What are you going to do about it? You have the right to go to jail, which is what will happen. Unless you want to lead a tax revolution, then you must steel yourself to kill and be killed over HOV. It's probably a better good just to pay the taxes

 

[moral necessity]

It doesn’t ease traffic though. For one people won’t pay the toll so those people who could get on it with just 2+ won’t anymore.

And besides that, think about it like the size of a pipe. You have a pipe six lanes wide but two of those lanes add conditions not everyone can meet or is willing to meet. So for most people you’ve now shrunk the width of the pipe to 4 lanes and have another pipe that is 2 lanes wide instead of one massive pipe 6 lanes wide.
It doesn’t alleviate traffic because it decreases potential maximum bandwidth for a majority of users.
The HOV policy is based on a pseudo claim that “car emissions cause green house gases which cause climate change.” If they really cared they’d make road conditions as alleviating of traffic as possible to increase average gas mileage and reduce emissions.


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Yep...good points! It's frustrating, I'm sure, especially since you live around it every day.

Keep in mind that not everything is a hill to die on, and pray for God to help you be Christ-like in your approach. As I'm sure you know, he uses every circumstance to reveal more of ourselves to us, to cause us to look more to him in faith, and to wean our affections from this world.

And, maybe there are some legal ways in which we can work to correct the foolish decisions of our State. I live in the same one you do, but further away from the chaos.

Blessing and prayers...

 

[Andrew35]

Where attempts to obey the law get particularly interesting is in international matters. Mental note: I'd like to ask someone sometime how to tease out whether I have to obey a particular law as a citizen or a different law given that I'm living in a particular country.

E.g., in China, it's currently illegal for a woman to fly past 32 weeks pregnant. Being US citizens (and ignorant of this new law up to the last minute), we went ahead and booked a flight with a non-Chinese airline which didn't have the same restrictions, and completed the flight from Chinese soil with no difficulties. I'm not entirely certain if we broke a law or no...

There are all kinds of interesting situations that come up like this when you live internationally. Sometimes laws passed that weren't well-thought out and contradict with other laws, making you a lawbreaker one way or another. It makes you appreciated a country with a well-developed, largely just legal code, like the US. It doesn't just happen.

 

[Jack K]

HOV lanes are an attempt to solve a classic conundrum found in business or government: How do you get people to choose a course of action that would benefit them if everyone did it, but harms them if they do it alone?

HOV lanes were conceived to encourage ride sharing, which helps everyone by reducing traffic. Most people don't like ride sharing because it comes with inconveniences and a loss of independence, but if everyone did it in some large cities they would all be rewarded with improved traffic conditions that made the inconveniences worthwhile. However, if just a few people ride share they get little reward and suffer the inconveniences alone. Hence the need for an extra incentive.

If HOV lanes encourage enough ride sharing and are properly apportioned, they help everyone. They are designed to help ride sharers the most (since people are selfish and need an incentive), but they also help everyone else because they decrease the total number of cars on the road, even in the non-HOV lanes. So they both just and wise. Everyone wins!

In theory.

However, it's fair to say we can doubt that HOV lanes have actually caused enough people to start ride sharing that they improve traffic flow for everyone. This makes them a FAILED strategy, but not an UNJUST one. They were, perhaps, worth trying. Maybe even worth still trying to perfect.

The recent trend to let people pay for the right to use HOV lanes even while driving alone is more troubling. Although there is a sense in which this lets people pay for the level of service they want, the effect is to create a government revenue stream without raising taxes. And once a revenue stream is created, it is very hard for a government to let it go. So we could be left with inefficient HOV lanes that stay this way because leaders in government are unwilling to give up the revenue stream.

Plus, pay-HOV lanes may increase the disadvantages of the poor and their difficulties in maintaining family time, which (if true) is a justice issue believers ought to care about.

 

[ZackF]

I’ll be a cheeky libertarian and ask if *any* public lane is just?

 

[Joshua]

Are HOV lanes unjust?

Like, dude, they're streets and lanes of asphalt. Pretty sure inanimate objects do not possess concepts like justice. DUH.

 

[Pergamum]

Just get a store mannequin and put it in a uniform like its going to a job and buckle it into the passenger side and......BAM....instant ride-sharing every time. AND you can be a tax-rebel.

https://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2019/0...ne-driver-with-dummy-passenger/8521556215910/

 

[Taylor]

This makes them a FAILED strategy, but not an UNJUST one.

Upon reading this, I think I should clarify my first response. I was there assuming that “HOV lanes” was in reference to toll lanes. I was confused because of how HOV lanes here in metro Atlanta have been taken away from us and changed to toll lanes (another frustrating issue all in itself).

 

[User20004000]

It may not be wise transportation policy or law (like a great many things), but I don't believe you have a biblical grounds for disobeying them.

Maybe look at it this way. Your taxes provide you a road. Actually, having a license provides you a road whether you pay taxes or not. If you want a faster lane on that road, that’s extra (if there’s a toll). Also, the less congested HOV lane is a motivator to carpool because HOV requires an extra passenger.

You’re not being required to sin. So, no. You should not break the law.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Maybe look at it this way.

I agree. I just can't tell how what you've said is different from what I said.

 

[User20004000]

I agree. I just can't tell how what you've said is different from what I said.

Maybe nothing. I didn’t read the thread!

 

[OPC'n]

99% of taxes are theft from the government, but we still have to obey the laws of the lands unless they go against God’s laws.

 

[jwithnell]

We have an entire road that's now HOV only unless you're willing to spend upwards of 30 bucks. Even if you have 3 in a car (which my family usually does) you can only take advantage of free HOV-3 with a special sensor, which will be taken away if you're not a commuter. Oh, and coming from Loudoun County, we have to pay 7 bucks to get to the start of this yellow brick road. It's gotten so bad, I've started using a ferry to cross the Potomac and go into DC via Maryland.

 

[RamistThomist]

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

Why not just live in a more rural setting where HOV lanes are not needed? Though there are still traffic frustrations out here as well. We had a major traffic tie up downtown the other week when a hay wagon overturned in the middle of Main Street. It took almost 30 minutes for the driver to right and reload the wagon with the help of some of those who were "inconvenienced" by the accident.

 

[Charles Johnson]

Everyone pays for highways, yet only people with cars can use them. And they have to pay twice - once for the road, once for the car. Even three times, if they pay for gas. Is that unjust?

 

[hammondjones]

The HOV Rebellion just doesn't have the cachet of the Whiskey Rebellion.

 

[Jack K]

I can get wrapped up discussing the wisdom and fairness of HOV lanes as much as anyone can, so it occurs to me that the pastoral response is probably to ask about anger and frustration. Traffic congestion is one of the "thorns" of life today in the fallen world, and our adversary would like to use it to cause us to arrive at work or back at home angry each day, demanding justice. And it's hard to love others when we are angry about things like traffic and are looking for someone to blame.

Perhaps our real challenge is to come to terms with the fact that, as Ecclesiastes tells us, the race is not to the swift. Life in this world is unfair and full of frustrations. We must look beyond it and remember our Creator rather than chase what is vanity.