Are Believers Totally Depraved?

[Romans922]

We would all agree that Unbelievers are Totally Depraved, but what about Believers?

For God's people they are able to seek God, do righteous acts, cry out "Abba", strive after godliness, make our calling/election sure, and also God's people have eternal life right now, as well as the have the fruit of the Spirit now.

Yet I often hear Christian Calvinists claiming that God's people are totally depraved like unbelievers. That the only difference between a Christian and non-Christian is their standing before God in Christ, but the depth of their sin and the extent of their sin is just the same.


So what say you? [Posted to generate a good conversation and hopefully clarify for some who may be confused.]

 

[Phil D.]

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." 2 Cor. 5:17

 

[Guido's Brother]

I think the Canons of Dort give a good answer to this question in chapter III/IV, article 11:

God carries out His good pleasure in the elect and works in them true conversion in the following manner. He takes care that the gospel is preached to them, and powerfully enlightens their minds by the Holy Spirit, so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God. By the efficacious working of the same regenerating Spirit He also penetrates into the innermost recesses of man. He opens the closed and softens the hard heart, circumcises that which was uncircumcised, and instils new qualities into the will. He makes the will, which was dead, alive; which was bad, good; which was unwilling, willing; and which was stubborn, obedient. He moves and strengthens it so that, like a good tree, it may be able to produce the fruit of good works.

 

[irresistible_grace]

I don't know about you but I am a "believer" and even as a regenerate Christian I am STILL "unable to contribute anything to my salvation." This is the doctrine of total depravity, is it not?

"But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness"

 

[irresistible_grace]

I think the Canons of Dort give a good answer to this question in chapter III/IV, article 11:

God carries out His good pleasure in the elect and works in them true conversion in the following manner. He takes care that the gospel is preached to them, and powerfully enlightens their minds by the Holy Spirit, so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God. By the efficacious working of the same regenerating Spirit He also penetrates into the innermost recesses of man. He opens the closed and softens the hard heart, circumcises that which was uncircumcised, and instils new qualities into the will. He makes the will, which was dead, alive; which was bad, good; which was unwilling, willing; and which was stubborn, obedient. He moves and strengthens it so that, like a good tree, it may be able to produce the fruit of good works.

The Dutch Reformers said it much better than I could!

 

[Phil D.]

even as a regenerate Christian I am STILL "unable to contribute anything to my salvation." This is the doctrine of total depravity, is it not?

While this truth is relative to the doctrine of total depravity, it certainly isn't a full description of it. Historically, the understanding of total depravity also incorporates the issue that persons are born into the world enslaved to the desire for and in the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious grace of God, utterly unable to choose to follow God or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered. This does not hold true for the truly regenerate. So with respect to the question in the OP, in my opinion, true believers are not comprehended in the doctrine of total depravity in the "same" sense as unbelievers.

 

[littlepeople]

Seems to me it's both/and: "For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another". There is a sense in which it is true, and a sense in which it is not true. Andrew, I think those who would say they are totally depraved would not deny that "they are able to seek God, do righteous acts, cry out "Abba", strive after godliness, make our calling/election sure, and also God's people have eternal life right now, as well as the have the fruit of the Spirit now"

They just feel the real effects of an old-man in them who is very crucified, but also very present. I understand the point you are making, but in my experience it's a difference of emphasis, not of substance. I'm open to correction though

 

[Jack K]

Are Believers Totally Depraved?

Not in the TULIP sense. That's about our state before we come to Christ.

I've heard people use the phrase in other senses, though. Doing so is probably not the clearest way to communicate, but depending on what they mean by it, they may not be wrong theologically.

I often hear Christian Calvinists claiming that God's people are totally depraved like unbelievers. That the only difference between a Christian and non-Christian is their standing before God in Christ, but the depth of their sin and the extent of their sin is just the same.

If someone said that, I'd certainly disagree. It's a no-brainer. What kind of cheap salvation would that be? If the extent of our sin is not lessened, either Christ has no power or he is not at work in us.

But... myself, I haven't heard a lot of Christian Calvinists say anything quite that extreme. I certainly haven't heard it often. And generally, I'm appreciative of a pastor who admits that believers may still struggle with ongoing sin in deep and profound ways.

 

[arapahoepark]

Wasn't there a blogging war between Tullian and Reformation 21 about this very thing a couple months ago?

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

I will list some Scriptures, and briefly comment:

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

1 Tim 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned

Acts 11:24 For he [Barnabas] was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith:

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

2 Tim 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Prov 22:11 He that loveth pureness of heart, for the grace of his lips the king shall be his friend.

Psalm 32:1-2 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Psalm 125:4 Do good, O Lord, unto those that be good, and to them that are upright in their hearts.​

So what is a pure heart? One whose heart is open to the Lord, asking Him for a guileless spirit, honest about his or her sins and quick to repent; one who has a child-like dependence on the Saviour for all that is necessary to the spiritual life (and the material life as well); one who owns to the Lord his remaining corruption and abiding self-centeredness, remaining self-love and self-aggrandizing, etc etc, and asks the Lord Jesus to subdue all this – and beseeches Him for the graces of His Spirit to replace the ways of the "old man".

If one makes this intimate communion and seeking of His righteousness in our lives the habit of one's life, this is to "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph 4:24). So the answer is: No, believers are not at all totally depraved, though they do have to war against what depravity or corruption remains in them, seeking to put such things to death by the power of Christ's Spirit.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

We must always realize that total depravity doesn't mean "as bad as possible to be," but that the extent is complete; humans are by nature rotten from head to toe. And clearly, there are some persons who are--in part or whole--more far gone than others. And Death is the End State for every natural man.

The Christian is moving in another direction from the natural man. He's still corrupt, and his sinful condition means that of themselves none of his good works can bear a strict scrutiny. The sinfulness of them is his responsibility, however the goodness of them proceeds from the indwelling Spirit. The man is credited with them (as if Christ himself had perfectly done them), and his Lord gets the glory for them.

But though the Christian is corrupt, that corruption is being transformed in the positive direction. But, it is still important to remember that this is a life-long work, and none of him will be thoroughly sanctified until he leaves this life. All of him (total) will be under-improvement by Holy Spirit until that moment. The thief on the cross saw virtually nothing of "progress," but his set had been permanently changed. There are Christians who are saved out of a horribly corrupt life, and even after some time may still seem to be more totally depraved than a "good" person, who has not Christ, but lots of empathy and generosity, and may seem to be hardly showing his inherent corruption at all.

The big difference is where either person is headed. Is that "good" man heading toward permanent corruption? He's still totally depraved. Is that "bad" man heading toward permanent renewal? He's' got an impossibly long way to go (under his own power), but his "remaining corruption" (that is shot completely through him) is being attacked on every front by the gift of Holy Spirit.

This is the paradox: we naturally tend to think that "good person" can't be totally depraved, because look how well he's doing! And we tend to think that the Christian has to have made a "leap" out of his depravity, or he's probably not really a Christian yet--"he's not even as good as that non-believer."


In short, this is a discussion worth having. But let us not put the words "total depravity" to a cross-purpose with what they mean to convey (extent, not amount). The Christian life is one of constant mortification (of sin) and vivification (of Christ in us).


Heidelberg 60
Q. How are you righteous before God?
A. Only by true faith in Jesus Christ.[1] Although my conscience accuses me that I have grievously sinned against all God's commandments, have never kept any of them,[2] and am still inclined to all evil,[3] yet God, without any merit of my own,[4] out of mere grace,[5] imputes to me the perfect satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ.[6] He grants these to me as if I had never had nor committed any sin, and as if I myself had accomplished all the obedience which Christ has rendered for me,[7] if only I accept this gift with a believing heart.[8]
[1] Rom.3:21-28; Gal.2:16; Eph.2:8-9; Php.3:8-11. [2] Rom.3:9-10. [3] Rom.7:23. [4] Dt.9:6; Ezk.36:22; Tit.3:4-5. [5] Rom.3:24; Eph.2:8. [6] Rom.4:3-5; 2Cor.5:17-19; 1Jn.2:1-2. [7] Rom.4:24-25; 2Cor.5:21. [8] Jn.3:18; Act.16:30-31; Rom.3:22.

Heidelberg 62
Q. But why can our good works not be our righteousness before God, or at least a part of it?
A. Because the righteousness which can stand before God's judgment must be absolutely perfect and in complete agreement with the law of God,[1] whereas even our best works in this life are all imperfect and defiled with sin.[2]
[1] Dt.27:26; Gal.3:10. [2] Is.64:6.

Heidelberg 88
Q. What is the true repentance or conversion of man?
A. It is the dying-away of the old nature and the coming to life of the new.[1]
[1] Rom.6:1-11; 1Cor.5:7; 2Cor.5:17; Eph.4:22-24; Col.3:5-10.

 

[Covenant Joel]

Tullian Tchividjian and Rick Phillips discussed this in some depth a while back. See my post here for a summary of their dialogue:

Roundup of Another Discussion on Sanctification | joelws.com

 

[Rayn]

Thank you, Rev. Buchanan. I'm the converted pagan you referred to and it's great to know that I'm not without hope because

He's' got an impossibly long way to go (under his own power), but his "remaining corruption" (that is shot completely through him) is being attacked on every front by the gift of Holy Spirit.

As for myself, I'm concerned when I encounter people who emphasize that Christians are new, new, new! to the point that I wonder if they're even defining the law properly. They blithely skate over statements like "Christians desire God" and "Christians hate their sin" with no qualification whatsoever. At times the old man can be so influential that we hardly hear the spirit of God at all. At times we read Scripture and obtain no delight in it whatsoever, either from the promises or the commands. We hear of commands to watch and pray, but find ourselves distracted and cold. But the simple fact that we can even be aware that this is going on is the work of the Spirit opening our eyes to the law of God. Unbelievers perpetually continue under the yoke of sin and remain forever content in it. Though the believer may for a time even delight in evil, the Spirit will affect him, and he will see his heart's condition and mourn. This is exactly why Christ-centered preaching is so important. Christians will persevere no matter what, because God has promised it to them. Somehow or other, God will renew his work within Christians and complete what he started. But they will be greatly helped if they are aware that God is renewing his covenant of grace with them this Sunday in word and sacrament, as the Lord of the Covenant himself is truly but mystically present to signify and seal it even to our physical senses.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

As has already been noted, it is critical to distinguish Total Depravity (also known as Radical Corruption) in an unregenerate person from Indwelling Sin in a regenerate person.

A person who is unregenerate is dead in his sin and trespasses. The Scriptures declare that such a man is a slave to sin.

A person who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God is alive in Christ and dead to sin and its enslaving power. The fact that he battles with Indwelling Sin (aka "The Old Man") is actually a sign of Spiritual life. There is no battle against sin for a man who is a slave to sin.

A small part of Dordt was quoted. Let's quote it further.

Regarding Total Depravity (or the Corruption of Original Sin Dordt confesses:

Article 1: The Effect of the Fall on Human Nature

Man was originally created in the image of God and was furnished in his mind with a true and salutary knowledge of his Creator and things spiritual, in his will and heart with righteousness, and in all his emotions with purity; indeed, the whole man was holy. However, rebelling against God at the devil's instigation and by his own free will, he deprived himself of these outstanding gifts. Rather, in their place he brought upon himself blindness, terrible darkness, futility, and distortion of judgment in his mind; perversity, defiance, and hardness in his heart and will; and finally impurity in all his emotions.

Article 2: The Spread of Corruption

Man brought forth children of the same nature as himself after the fall. That is to say, being corrupt he brought forth corrupt children. The corruption spread, by God's just judgment, from Adam to all his descendants-- except for Christ alone--not by way of imitation (as in former times the Pelagians would have it) but by way of the propagation of his perverted nature.

Article 3: Total Inability

Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.

Article 4: The Inadequacy of the Light of Nature

There is, to be sure, a certain light of nature remaining in man after the fall, by virtue of which he retains some notions about God, natural things, and the difference between what is moral and immoral, and demonstrates a certain eagerness for virtue and for good outward behavior. But this light of nature is far from enabling man to come to a saving knowledge of God and conversion to him--so far, in fact, that man does not use it rightly even in matters of nature and society. Instead, in various ways he completely distorts this light, whatever its precise character, and suppresses it in unrighteousness. In doing so he renders himself without excuse before God.

Article 5: The Inadequacy of the Law

In this respect, what is true of the light of nature is true also of the Ten Commandments given by God through Moses specifically to the Jews. For man cannot obtain saving grace through the Decalogue, because, although it does expose the magnitude of his sin and increasingly convict him of his guilt, yet it does not offer a remedy or enable him to escape from his misery, and, indeed, weakened as it is by the flesh, leaves the offender under the curse.

But then Dordt speaks about conversion:

Article 11: The Holy Spirit's Work in Conversion

Moreover, when God carries out this good pleasure in his chosen ones, or works true conversion in them, he not only sees to it that the gospel is proclaimed to them outwardly, and enlightens their minds powerfully by the Holy Spirit so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God, but, by the effective operation of the same regenerating Spirit, he also penetrates into the inmost being of man, opens the closed heart, softens the hard heart, and circumcises the heart that is uncircumcised. He infuses new qualities into the will, making the dead will alive, the evil one good, the unwilling one willing, and the stubborn one compliant; he activates and strengthens the will so that, like a good tree, it may be enabled to produce the fruits of good deeds.

Article 12: Regeneration a Supernatural Work

And this is the regeneration, the new creation, the raising from the dead, and the making alive so clearly proclaimed in the Scriptures, which God works in us without our help. But this certainly does not happen only by outward teaching, by moral persuasion, or by such a way of working that, after God has done his work, it remains in man's power whether or not to be reborn or converted. Rather, it is an entirely supernatural work, one that is at the same time most powerful and most pleasing, a marvelous, hidden, and inexpressible work, which is not lesser than or inferior in power to that of creation or of raising the dead, as Scripture (inspired by the author of this work) teaches. As a result, all those in whose hearts God works in this marvelous way are certainly, unfailingly, and effectively reborn and do actually believe. And then the will, now renewed, is not only activated and motivated by God but in being activated by God is also itself active. For this reason, man himself, by that grace which he has received, is also rightly said to believe and to repent.

Article 13: The Incomprehensible Way of Regeneration

In this life believers cannot fully understand the way this work occurs; meanwhile, they rest content with knowing and experiencing that by this grace of God they do believe with the heart and love their Savior.

Article 14: The Way God Gives Faith

In this way, therefore, faith is a gift of God, not in the sense that it is offered by God for man to choose, but that it is in actual fact bestowed on man, breathed and infused into him. Nor is it a gift in the sense that God bestows only the potential to believe, but then awaits assent--the act of believing--from man's choice; rather, it is a gift in the sense that he who works both willing and acting and, indeed, works all things in all people produces in man both the will to believe and the belief itself.


Article 16: Regeneration's Effect

However, just as by the fall man did not cease to be man, endowed with intellect and will, and just as sin, which has spread through the whole human race, did not abolish the nature of the human race but distorted and spiritually killed it, so also this divine grace of regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms, and--in a manner at once pleasing and powerful--bends it back. As a result, a ready and sincere obedience of the Spirit now begins to prevail where before the rebellion and resistance of the flesh were completely dominant. It is in this that the true and spiritual restoration and freedom of our will consists. Thus, if the marvelous Maker of every good thing were not dealing with us, man would have no hope of getting up from his fall by his free choice, by which he plunged himself into ruin when still standing upright.

In other words, the Corruption of Original Sin apart from conversion makes men unwilling to believe the Gospel. In contrast, conversion frees men from this Corruption and makes him willing to believe.

To say that a Christian is Totally Depraved is thus an oxymoron. It is to say that a Christian cannot believe the Gospel because he is dead in his sins and trespasses.

Now, the scope of this post is not to discuss the battle with Indwelling Sin that remains in believers but I must emphasize again that Indwelling Sin and the imperfection of Sanctification in this life is NOT the same thing as Total Depravity.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Well said and noted Rich. Thank you very much.

 

[MW]

As noted, they could not be believers if they were totally depraved. But to add another important point, we should not heed what totally depraved people teach, Romans 16:17-18; 2 Peter 2; Jude.

 

[Brock Organ]

We would all agree that Unbelievers are Totally Depraved, but what about Believers?

For God's people they are able to seek God, do righteous acts, cry out "Abba", strive after godliness, make our calling/election sure, and also God's people have eternal life right now, as well as the have the fruit of the Spirit now.

Yet I often hear Christian Calvinists claiming that God's people are totally depraved like unbelievers. That the only difference between a Christian and non-Christian is their standing before God in Christ, but the depth of their sin and the extent of their sin is just the same.

So what say you? [Posted to generate a good conversation and hopefully clarify for some who may be confused.]

Here's the best organization that I've found; I think it answers what you're asking:

====
The Four States of Libertas Naturae

libertas naturae - (freedom of nature); "the liberty that is proper to a being given its particular nature." (Muller 176). The four states of libertas naturae are as follows:

a. libertas Adami - (freedom of Adam); "before the fall - this is the ability or power not to sin." (Muller 176).

b. libertas peccatorum - (freedom of sinners); a freedom that is proper to and confined within the limits of fallen nature and is therefore an absolute inability to do good or to act for the good with the sinner described as not able not to sin." (Muller 176).

c. libertas fidelium - (freedom of the faithful); "a freedom of those regenerated by the Holy Spirit that is proper to the regenerate nature and is characterized by the ability to sin and to do good." (Muller 176).

d. libertas gloriae - (freedom of glory); "a freedom proper to the fully redeemed nature of [the blessed in heaven], who, as residents of the heavenly kingdom are now characterized by the inability to sin." (Muller 176).

The four states of man in relation to sin enumerated by Augustine of Hippo: (a) able to sin, able not to sin (posse peccare, posse non peccare); (b) not able not to sin (non posse non peccare); (c) able not to sin (posse non peccare); and (d) unable to sin (non posse peccare). The first state corresponds to the state of man in innocency, before the Fall; the second the state of the natural man after the Fall; the third the state of the regenerate man; and the fourth the glorified man.

The Four States of Libertas Naturae