Any vegans in here?

I'll give the OP a longer response since he is a believer and from what I can gather..not a troll. I can't say much for the Vegan presence online. I find them a menace due to their religiosity and coercive tendencies.

There is a treatment of animals that falls under the duty of stewardship and obedience to the Lord's Day. This doesn't demand abstinence from consuming animal product. Furthermore, less than ideal or even poor conditions of livestock are less important than the life and health to those unable to afford higher quality and more ethically (whatever definition) raised animals. Vegan activists have little to offer other than time and left-wing environmental activism to support their agenda. They certainly don't have science. Every human society since the the Fall, has been omnivore to some extent. I'll concede there are illnesses that make the digestion of animal product a challenge, even a debilitating challenge for some. However, there are few in that category and they require well planned supplementation.

I prefer grass-fed meat, free range chicken, hormone free pork, wild-caught fish, and raw dairy products yet finances and availability consistently push back against those options. Anything by farmer/rancher Joel Salatin is worth reading. He is a self-described Christian, Libertarian lunatic. What's not to like? Just google his name. Foolish and crony laws contribute to the high cost of this. Many of the reasons for the higher cost of this that are because of farm subsidies. Subsidies that encourage cheap grain to feed livestock that isn't designed for grain. Also, how many egg carton of 'free range hens' say 'vegetarian fed.' Hello! Birds require bugs as well as seeds. This omission leads to a horrible Omega 3 to Omega 6 ratio in even free range chickens.

As far as hunting as concerned, I've did a lot of it. Mainly in my youth. I wouldn't mind doing so now but time and opportunities are hard to come by. I'm not of the 'hunting should be only for food' camp though it is wasteful not to eat what you kill or find someone who will.

We've known since the 1980s much of the foreign aid with food and money ends up in the hands of corrupt officials and wasted. That's why there is chronic starvation in those countries to begin with. The late Hugo Chavez and his successors have starved Venezuela. They ran out all of the producers. Not 'the West' or bad weather. Natural food disasters recover much quicker. It has to rain or stop raining sometime.

In conclusion I also believe in the industrial revolution and the division of labor. Farmers and ranchers are now able to raise enough food with 1/100 the manpower it took in past centuries. We can now transport food from more profitable areas to areas unable to grow and raise food. This is a win. Starvation is asymptotically approaching eradication in the West. Huge strides are being made in India and China as well. When the real cost of food has dropped so much and feeds so many people we should count it as a win when we start talking about what animals may think of it and a better life for them.

 

In fact, eating meat and saturated fats is better for u. Can I get a shout out to my pal, BACON? I have been paleo for 7 years. I work in the medical field and have access to all sorts of physicians. The school of thought has shifted 180 degrees. Whereas, the thinking was, more grains and veggies vs meat and saturated fats, has now digressed. The thinking is, we are all low on fat from low fat eating, been gorged with fake fats and vegetable oils to the degree where we all have a level of early alzheimers and the level of inflamation is the majority of the population is ridiculous.

7 years ago, I had htn. I was put on Norvasc. I was inflamed; my crp was off the charts-the docs I knew looked at me as if I was a circus act. As well, pre-diabetic; my triglycerides were greater than 700!

I went Paleo on the suggestion of a nephrologist I know. I am now his poster child. I lost 30 lbs-off blood pressure meds, my chemistry is within normal limits now. I only use good fats, coconut oil, avacado oil, grapessed oil. No grains to speak of except rice-I tolerate rice, just fine.

But yea, no, the thinking that meat and saturated fats is bad for you is old school; in fact google it! Ask the docs.

My paleo chain mail if interested: https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-bushey/my-paleo-chain-mail/10152273344660092/

 

Actually Bavinck thought most reformers were of the persuasion that meat was permitted even before the flood.

 

(Emphasis supplied)

No, count me out on that one.

"Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat."

Cain may have been a vegetarian (and we know how he turned out) but it is not a strained reading to see Abel as a meat eater.

 

mic drop!

 

The same science that has proven global warming is settled science? Is that why Jerry Lewis died at the young age of 91 after having been a chain smoker?

 

"...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food."

 

That's why you are a fruitarian no doubt?

 

But they exhale greenhouse gasses.

 

I'm a Meatatarian I try to eat free range and organic. But sometimes I get that Mc chicken itch

 

McChicken itch sounds ghastly. Perhaps there are good reasons to go vegan after all

 

In the old covenant, the Jews were not able to eat freely of the meats we do today (e.g., no pork) nor were they able to eat vegan (i.e., required to eat lamb at the passover). Now with freedom in Christ we can adopt both of these diets, among others.

I personally see no compelling reason to abstain from eating animal products. In fact, I think some of the most efficient ways to get protein as the earth's population increases will be from (farmed) fish and insects, once we get over the latter.

I think the more pressing problem in our day and age is gluttony before we even get to the problem of where to source our food. While I admit times for both feasting and fasting, in general we should eat in moderation to meet our body's energy needs and not beyond that. A lot of the problems we face would be solved by everyone eating less, as many of us (myself included in the past) tend to carry extra for the never-seem-to-be-coming lean times with us always.

 

That's a good point. As well, weren't Adam and Eve clothed with skins after the fall? I doubt they would have just let the meat rot without putting it to use.

 

Just curious.....

Do you eat food grown on typical American mega agriculture farms, sprayed with glycophosphate and all sorts of other things? If not, and you eat organic, do you know how many sprays they use (a lot). Do you eat food that is grown only on composted ground with no soil depletion or do you eat food from farms relying on fertilizers and depleting the soil?

Do you eat anything at all grown in the midwest ( corn, soy, wheat) and irrigated by the rapidly shrinking Ogallala aquifer, contributing to the loss of family wells? How about anything at all from Central valley (99% of our almonds, walnuts, pistachios, strawberries and broccoli, 95% of canned tomatoes, and large percents of peppers, spinach, lettuce, and all sorts of produce and rice). If so, you are contributing to that shrinking aquifer and land subsistence , with encroaching salt water also threatening to destroy family and municipal wells. It takes a gallon of water to grow one little almond...do you drink almond milk?

Do you consume bananas, coffee, or tea, or chocolate? Have you studied the greed and corruption of the great plantations sending us those items, picked by impoverished workers with usually no human rights or health benefits?

You are either living on fresh air and sunshine, or you are part of the same fallen and corrupt system meat eaters are part of. Unless you grow all your own food with composted soil renewing techniques and no sprays, and water it with rain or from an abundant aquifer, you are part of the broken creation that groans and awaits our redemption. Personally I think you should repent of being so ignorant and go eat a hamburger.

 

Are you anti science?

 

While I really enjoyed reading this entire convo and discussion, I think it slightly hijacked the main point of the thread. Sounds like Josiah was looking to find some like minded people who are on similar diets and discuss them. Ended up being a huge debate on vegetarianism. Don't get me wrong, I find that the questions asked were very good questions and I appreciate some of the challenges, but something to consider . I know my wife has felt terrible as of late. It seems every time she eats dairy it makes her feel sick, as well as anything with gluten. We of all people laughed a little when people were in a "gluten free fad" but she tried it as some said it would help and she has felt a million times better between cutting milk and gluten out.

 

I'm certain Edward is not. But as an engineer myself I take lots of things with a grain of salt. Examples abound, such as the American Heart Association, without any real studies, speaking out against eating fatty foods (because "everyone knows" they are bad). They may have inadvertently increased the number of deaths related to heart disease. Reference Scott's video link above and Gary Taubes work below.

http://garytaubes.com/vegetable-oils-francis-bacon-bing-crosby-and-the-american-heart-association/

 

Keep in mind that Josiah started this in the OP by his mentioning "ethical reasons" for his veganism.

 

I wish I knew how to hunt. Hunting wasn't something my family did growing up. Are there any organizations that you know of that offer hunting lessons?

 

I'm anti- fake science with doctored numbers.

I don't have much respect for hired gun scientists who rent themselves to the best paying lawyers. (Anti-smoking was a multi-billion dollar industry).

 

You made me look.

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/southeast-asia-pacific/australia

He probably doesn't eat much of the cat and dog food, but we probably get him with fresh fruit.

 

I didn't know dog was one of our major agricultural products, much less a major export.

Josiah, is Asian food popular in Australia?

 

You don't live too far away from us. Every November, some of our (male) church members along with members from a sister church (and guests) do a "rendezvous." It's Friday to Saturday and we target practice, hunt, eat and do Bible studies. PM me if you are interested!

 

Ruben, I'll stand by my general point. Australian farming is modern and westernized with soil depletion, chemical sprays, and aquifer depletion. It is happening all over the world. "The earth will wear out like a garment". Creation is groaning. It isn't just meat production, it is plant production as well.

 

Will do!