Any Historic Premillennialists on Here?

Discussion in 'Revelation & Eschatology' started by Christian Teegardin, Sep 26, 2016.

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  1. Christian Teegardin

    Christian Teegardin Puritan Board Freshman

    I hold to post-tribulation (historic) premillennialism, and do not agree with most Reformed Christians' amillennialism. In all other points of doctrine, we're simpatico, but eschatology is a tough one.

    I used to be what Reformed folk call a 'Dispensational.' Yes, a dispensationalist. I used to believe in the happy-dandy 'all the Christians will rise up into Heaven and maybe the folk down there will get a chance to ask Jesus into their heart.' Note the Arminianism. I was an Arminian, so I endorsed that thought for awhile. Now I will obliterate it through Calvinistic soteriology.

    Here's some points I'll make:

    1. If all Christians (elect) go to Heaven at the Rapture (before the tribulation), the world will be entirely populated by reprobates. That's not true by any means.
    2. But obviously, there is going to be a persecuted Church during the tribulation, so dispensationalism is in serious error regarding the pre-tribulation Rapture.
    3. Therefore, I have to conclude that in order for the Bible, Calvinism, and premillennialism to make sense together, I would have to say that historic premillennialism is the way to go, since the Rapture will happen after the Tribulation is over, or at least right before the wrath of God.

    I hold the view of John Gill, Charles Spurgeon, Al Mohler, Francis Schaeffer, and Gordon Clark.

    Anyone agree with me?
     
  2. Edm

    Edm Puritan Board Freshman

    I read that Spurgon was only a part time Premil. So you can only count him as a half...
     
  3. Christian Teegardin

    Christian Teegardin Puritan Board Freshman

    Hmm, interesting, thanks for the information. I am more fond of Spurgeon than Calvin, so I put Spurgeon as my avatar, but I do like Calvin.
     
  4. Toasty

    Toasty Puritan Board Sophomore

    I'm just wondering about something. I have a question about those who believe that all Christians will be raptured before the tribulation. Do they believe that some people will become Christian after the rapture and before the tribulation ends? Do they believe that some people could read some surviving Christian literature after the rapture and before the tribulation ends and believe in Jesus?
     
  5. Christian Teegardin

    Christian Teegardin Puritan Board Freshman

    Yes. Their Arminianism allows them to do so. My Calvinism prevents me from even entertaining dispensationalism as a possibility.
     
  6. zsmcd

    zsmcd Puritan Board Freshman

    Schaeffer believed in historic pre-mil?
     
  7. Bill The Baptist

    Bill The Baptist Puritan Board Graduate

    Yes. See his short book Basic Bible Studies.
     
  8. convicted1

    convicted1 Puritan Board Freshman

    Brother, I really appreciate this post. I have been amill most my Christian life, but I am leaning towards Chiliasm. Not entirely there yet, but leaning there. I do see the church going through all tribulations prior to 1 Thessalonians 4. Great post and maybe we can speak about this some more?
     
  9. Jerusalem Blade

    Jerusalem Blade Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Hello Willis,

    You said, "I do see the church going through all tribulations prior to 1 Thessalonians 4." I'm amil, and I see the same thing. That is the standard view for contemporary amils.
     
  10. convicted1

    convicted1 Puritan Board Freshman

    That is why I can see Chiliasm as being biblically true. That view and amill hold to this central theme(truth). It's the millienium I am trying to flesh out. Wherever He is, I wanna be.
     
  11. arapahoepark

    arapahoepark Puritan Board Graduate

    Read Kim Riddlebarger. He helped get me out of my Dispensational mindset. While I see nothing heretical or wrong with historic premillennialism, I see it as a remaining vestige of a woodenly literal hermeneutic.
     
  12. Jerusalem Blade

    Jerusalem Blade Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Willis, did you see the thread I just started, Thoughts on similarities between the premillennial and amillennial views? Here a snippet from that on the millennium,

    About the thousand years, it’s a special number in Scripture, and it means completeness to the nth degree, as in Psalm 50:10, where all the beasts of the forest are His, and “the cattle upon a thousand hills”—not only a thousand, but all the hills in the world. The thousand years are all the years of the church age, from Christ’s first coming till right before His second.

    A literal thousand years in earthly Jerusalem makes three ages, this present time, the Jerusalem reign age, and then the eternal age, whereas Jesus—who spoke of two ages only—when talking of the one who blasphemes against the Holy Ghost, said this sin “shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (age), neither in the world to come” (Mt 12:32). He said it again in Lk 18:29, 30; Lk 20:34, 35; and Mt 13:39, 40, 49. He repeatedly says there are only two ages—not three! The 1,000 year “age” of an earthly Jerusalem reign of Christ contradicts Scripture.​

    Can it be supposed the glorified Lord would come to reign in old creation Jerusalem, in a temple of crumbling stones, over a population of unregenerate living dead who will revolt against Him 1,000 years later? How utterly anti-climactic and futile! The New Testament temple is the church: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (1 Cor 3:16) And there are supposed to be two Armageddons, and two raptures—one each before the 1,000 years, and one each after? That sort of double vision means the false seer needs new glasses.

    Rather, He reigns in the heavens among the "souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus" (Rev 20:4) during the entire church age, the period symbolized by a thousand years. See the thread I referenced above, for more.

    And in that thread I talk of the legit similarities between the two schools; but the real dissimilarities need to be pointed out and debunked.
     
  13. Alex Foo

    Alex Foo Puritan Board Freshman

    hi, i'm quite a newbie and i hold on to pre-trib premil. My eschatology is identical to that of John MacArthur through literal reading of 1 Thes 4, Revelation 4, 19.

    I'm exploring on amil, post-trib etc but i couldn't get past literal reading of Romans 9-11, concerning that Israel will eventually be grafted back to the vine. Also, I couldn't get past that OT promises not be fulfilled literally on Israel (though now apostate). Help?
     
  14. convicted1

    convicted1 Puritan Board Freshman

    Trust me, I am NOT a Dispensational in any shape, form, or fashion. Yet, I can see where God does turn to Israel the nation and graft them back in via belief. I think Brother Voddie Baucham said something really well in a sermon based on Romans 11:25-32 where he said that the USA is the largest Jewish nation and God could fulfill that passage alone, by grafting in Jews to the true Israel here in America.
     
  15. convicted1

    convicted1 Puritan Board Freshman

    As I said previously, I am not in any camp as of now. I once was staunchly amill, but I can see where Chiliasm could could be biblical. I just haven't fleshed it out yet. I have read Revelation a few times, but I get mixed up when I try to figure out what is literal and what is figurative.
     
  16. convicted1

    convicted1 Puritan Board Freshman

    I would be closer to post-trib pre-millennial as I see the church going through tribulation right up unto our King returns.
     
  17. Leslie

    Leslie Puritan Board Junior

    I mostly agree with your position. It seems though that the folks who quote Jesus' "one shall be taken and the other left" have it wrong. In the case of Noah it was the wicked that were taken and the righteous left.
     
  18. convicted1

    convicted1 Puritan Board Freshman

    The ones who have the church raptured prior to the tribulation have differing views. Some believe ppl will be saved during that seven years of tribulation(3.5 years of trib and another 3.5 years they call great trib). But, if the church and the Spirit are pulled out of earth, then none could be saved.

    I am not saying I am a Chiliast yet, and I may go back to the amill camp, but eschatology is not something I truly get fired up about to debate it that much. Now, DoG vs free will....let's debate!! Lullz...
     
  19. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    I am now on of them!

    Was fora long time a firm believer that the Bible taughta Rapture distinct from Second Coming, but see both now as being the same event...

    Do also still hold to Jesus returning to set up the fullness of His Kingdom here upon the earth at his Second Coming...
     
  20. convicted1

    convicted1 Puritan Board Freshman

    That's where I am not fully convinced as of yet. Yes, He is returning. But does He touch terra firma? Not settled enough to give an answer.
     
  21. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    I base this upon the Bible stating that he will set foot upon the Mount of Olives at His Second Coming...

    Also d see a dustinction between the Kingdom Jesus sets up here upon the earth, and theNew Jerusalem Eternal State after that time!
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2016
  22. Warren

    Warren Puritan Board Freshman

    Hey, me too, brother! Believed in the 144,000 Jewish virgins, and all.

    ... nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.
     
  23. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    Spurgeon did not speak often on the subject. But in every case in which he stated his view, it was premil. Nevertheless, various amils, premils and postmils have tried to claim him.

    I think the idea of Spurgeon as a one time postmil has to do with some comments in a sermon (or a few sermons) regarding the spread of the gospel in this age.
     
  24. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    I used to be hard-line premil, but then I recently moved to something akin to amil (or at least Vosian Two-Age), but because I openly challenged some Platonic vestiges in some amil treatments, some questioned my Christianity. I can't win for losing. LOL.
     
  25. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    Think that he held to the view that Jesus would be returning to Earth and set up His Kingdom at that time here upon the earth, and that while he was NOT a Dispensational, did hold to Israel as a nation/people being converted at return of Christ...
     
  26. convicted1

    convicted1 Puritan Board Freshman

    Where does it say He would step foot in the Mount of Olives upon His return?

    Where do you find this in scriptures? Asking to study this out further. Thanks in advance.
     
  27. convicted1

    convicted1 Puritan Board Freshman

    In Genesis 17, God tells Abraham His covenant with his descendants would be everlasting, and the land would be an everlasting possession as well.

    Now, in Romans 4, Paul writes that Abraham was the father of all those who believe. So, in Christ, who is the true Israel, Jews and Gentiles are one.

    This is what caused me to rethink my amil view. The same Hebrew word for 'everlasting' is the same word. So, if the world is burned up as the amil view states, how then can the land be an everlasting possession, seeing it has been burned up, dissolved?
     
  28. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    Zech. 14. That's not my view but that's what most premils hold.
     
  29. Jerusalem Blade

    Jerusalem Blade Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Hello again, Willis,

    In the eternal state, earth has been cleansed by fire—whether utterly dissolved and recreated, or its surface burned away and remade, commentators vary—and upon this New Earth the city of God, New Jerusalem, has come down (Rev 21:1,2,3). The land promises now are fulfilled not only by the boundaries of old Israel but include the entire earth ("the meek shall inherit the earth"). The Israel of God possesses the world, indeed, the universe.

    Zechariah 14:1,2,3,4 was the last thing I let go of from my premil days, that is, interpreting it literally. I now believe it stands for the ravaging of the church during the age, and particularly its being overcome at the very end. Although it is certainly possible the Lord could touch upon the Mount of Olives at the end, though I think Rev 6:14, "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places" indicates that upon His return the earth will not remain intact. The two witnesses of Rev 11 were the next-to-last thing I relinquished upon embracing the amil view.
     
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