Antipas, a solid rebuttal to preterism?

Discussion in 'Revelation & Eschatology' started by ReformedWretch, Dec 30, 2004.

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  1. ReformedWretch

    ReformedWretch Puritan Board Doctor

    My faithful martyr

    Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where
    thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's
    seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my
    name, and hast not denied my faith,
    even in those days wherein Antipas
    [was] my faithful martyr, who
    was slain among you,
    where Satan dwelleth.

    Jesus calls
    Antipas my faithful martyr

    AND

    Antipas is the only follower
    actually named as martyr in Revelation.

    Antipas was a leader in the church
    at Pergamos in 83 AD

    Antipas was later martred in
    Pergamos on April 11, 90 AD

    It is said that Antipas was
    consecrated bishop of Pergamos
    by the Apostle John himself!

    Well,
    that certainly makes sense now

    Irenaeus speaks of Revelation
    Irenaeus (circa 180 AD)

    says of the book--

    "For it was seen, not a long time
    ago, but almost in our own generation,
    at the END of the reign of Domitian"
    (Adv. Haer., v.30, 3).

    And St John was exiled to the Isle of
    Patmos by Domitian in 95 AD

    Domitian was Emperor of Rome from
    September 14, 81 AD - September 18, 96 AD

    Here´s Domitian´s coin

    http://dougsmith.ancients.info/feac49dom.html

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ
    was made known in 96 AD and is a
    book of Prophecy.

    Rev 1:3 Rev 11:6 Rev 19:10
    Rev 22:7 Rev 22:10 Rev 22:18
    Rev 22:19

    The fate of Antipas is recorded
    by Simeon Metaphrastes.

    The martyred Saint Antipas is
    celebrated on April 11th
     
  2. ConfederateTheocrat

    ConfederateTheocrat Puritan Board Freshman

    This must be addressed (Paul?).
     
  3. ReformedWretch

    ReformedWretch Puritan Board Doctor

    Well, I did find this;

    the death of Antipas is disputed here by prominent church historian Schaff (who wrote in preface he believed the early dating):

    History of the Christian Church, chapter 6

    The heathen historians, if we are to judge from their silence, seem to confine the persecution to the city of Rome, but later Christian writers extend it to the provinces.528 The example set by the emperor in the capital could hardly be without influence in the provinces, and would justify the outbreak of popular hatred. If the Apocalypse was written under Nero, or shortly after his death, John's exile to Patmos must be connected with this persecution. It mentions imprisonments in Smyrna, the martyrdom of Antipas in Pergamus, and speaks of the murder of prophets and saints and all that have been slain on the earth. The Epistle to the Hebrews 10:32-34, which was written in Italy, probably in the year 64, likewise alludes to bloody persecutions, and to the release of Timothy from prison, 13:23. And Peter, in his first Epistle, which may be assigned to the same year, immediately after the outbreak of the persecution, and shortly before his death, warns the Christians in Asia Minor of a fiery trial which is to try them, and of sufferings already endured or to be endured, not for any crime, but for the name of "Christians."530 The name "Babylon"531 for Rome is most easily explained by the time and circumstances of composition.
     
  4. bigheavyq

    bigheavyq Puritan Board Freshman

    the people of pergamos worshipped a satanic god which was a large snake with a kings crown.
     
  5. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    Sounds like Gentry is reaching.
     
  6. Peter

    Peter Puritan Board Junior

    If Wayne Wylie were a famous martyr and the verse only said "Wayne" was martyred I would assume it was Wayne Wylie. Not conclusive, but compelling (unless you're prejudiced by your presuppositions to begin with).

    [Edited on 5-1-2005 by Peter]
     
  7. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    If they identified "Wayne" with a particular church I went to and there were no other "Waynes" there. the evidence would be pretty compelling that it was me! Just as its pretty compelling that the writer of the Revelation was John the Apostle not some other John.

    If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, odds are its a duck and not a goose.
     
  8. Irishcat922

    Irishcat922 Puritan Board Sophomore

    Wow! Ken Gentry is a Jr. on top of all those other titles that is amazing.:bigsmile:
     
  9. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    You would assume that it was Wayne Wylie because there there are "no other" Waynes at that Church. Its as simple as that. Its not that tough to figure out.
     
  10. Peter

    Peter Puritan Board Junior


    John ordains the Antipas martyred in 90 A.D. John speaks of a martyr named Antipas in Revelation. You cant even say, "seems probable they are the same Antipas, but other facts I believe about Rev. preclude me from saying so."?
     
  11. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    Sounds like you can't get past your presuppositions? :cool:
     
  12. VERITAS

    VERITAS Puritan Board Freshman

    Well at least we know which Kenneth Gentry we're talking about! Maybe... Try doing a whitepages.com search for "Kenneth Gentry" and it will tell you that there are too many results to be displayed. Knowing that Ken lives in TX you could limit the search to just TX, but even that provides a list of 61 potential Kenneth Gentrys!

    Oh well, at least Herod Antipas got to bask in the glory that his name invoked on gushing new parents...


    [Edited on 1-5-2005 by VERITAS]
     
  13. ReformedWretch

    ReformedWretch Puritan Board Doctor

    Thing is Wayne, I have to consider the logic being used here because the whole "Antipas" issue cannot over come all the other evidences given. To take the "Antipas agrument" over all the others is to cede quite a bit. If one would place all the evidence on a scale, it would leave the "Antipas proves Revelation was written after AD70" argument on the wanting side.
     
  14. ReformedWretch

    ReformedWretch Puritan Board Doctor

    Hello Veritas, welcome to the board. What a thread to make your first post in!
     
  15. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    Adam,

    True the Antipas argument in and of itself would not convince a preterist, partial or otherwise. But then again it is another arrow in the quiver of the non-preterist, partial or otherwise :D

    (if you haven't figured it out I'm not a preterist, partial or otherwise).
     
  16. VirginiaHuguenot

    VirginiaHuguenot Puritanboard Librarian

    I'm just mulling over these things myself, but to quote Sherlock Holmes, "It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    ~ The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet (1892)
     
  17. ReformedWretch

    ReformedWretch Puritan Board Doctor

    Oh I figured that out :lol:

    May I ask what your perspective is then? I mean I can respect any and all opinions but I would like to know your take on it.
     
  18. VERITAS

    VERITAS Puritan Board Freshman

    I agree that it cedes quite a lot. So, what would be the benefits or the consequences of denying an early date based upon the "evidence" of Antipas?

    It still wouldn't prove the diSpENSATIONAL model true and it would make The Revelation a bit of useless fancy, mere filler to the tome of Scripture. What would be the point of 2 witnesses, calculating the number of the beast, describing the character of the great whore, etc.?

    And would a late date have more of an apologetic value when witnessing to Jews or less?

    BTW, hi Adam. Thanks for the welcome!

    Edit: Elkton, MD huh? I had Tyler, TX in mind. I guess I was thinking of Gary North...


    [Edited on 1-5-2005 by VERITAS]

    [Edited on 1-5-2005 by VERITAS]
     
  19. VirginiaHuguenot

    VirginiaHuguenot Puritanboard Librarian

    Paul, Just out of curiosity, where does Gentry go to church/minister? On the SCCCS website, it says that Gentry is pastor of an OPC church in Costa Mesa, CA. I have friends in Elkton...
     
  20. VirginiaHuguenot

    VirginiaHuguenot Puritanboard Librarian

    Ah, that is interesting. I appreciate the info. If you have the opportunity to inquire further, I'd be glad to know more.
     
  21. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    LogicBoy,

    I have a call in for Spock back in Vulcan. I thought I would check with him to make sure my argument is not contradictory or apparently contradictory or a paradox. I wouldn't want you to have to call be a "reductio" or something like that! As soon as I hear back from Spock I will lay out my argument. :lol:
     
  22. VERITAS

    VERITAS Puritan Board Freshman

    Ok, but only because you said "10-4"... :cool:


    [Edited on 1-5-2005 by VERITAS]
     
  23. RickyReformed

    RickyReformed Puritan Board Freshman

    Have any preterists (partial or otherwise) commented on E. B. Elliott's Horae Apocalypticae? The material in these audio messages titled Preterism Refuted comes from this book. I haven't listened to these audio messages yet so I can't comment on them, nor have I read Elliot's book (2,500 pages). Here's a description of the book and it's author:

    from http://www.historicist.com/horae.htm

    [Edited on 6-1-2005 by RickyReformed]
     
  24. RickyReformed

    RickyReformed Puritan Board Freshman

    And over a hundred years ago, too! :judge:
     
  25. fredtgreco

    fredtgreco Vanilla Westminsterian Staff Member

    I believe he is now the pastor of a PCA church in South Carolina. I can find out more this week.
     
  26. bigheavyq

    bigheavyq Puritan Board Freshman

    date of revelation

    of course there is always the interpretation of Joseph Braswell. He believes in the late date and that revelation is more of a newspaper report describing what happened at the destruction of jerusalem. btw I have real problems with this interpretation.

    He wrote it many years ago in the Chalcedon Report, I don't have the link. sorry.
     
  27. VERITAS

    VERITAS Puritan Board Freshman

    Thanks for the links Ricky. The audio sermons are very tedious listening. Perhaps reading the original would be easier to follow. But I would just say that the historicist method doesn't do justice to the sacred text, intent or original audience of The Revelation and thus fails to satisfy. How anyone can come up with the following nonsense is mind-boggling:

    "The successive time periods during which these Seven Seals occurred are as follows. The dates quoted are merely guides, as each period overlapped to some degree with its neighbouring period, and some authorities vary as to the actual event which marks a particular period.

    Seal 1. 96 - 180 A.D. Rome Victorious.

    Seal 2. 185 - 284. Civil War.

    Seal 3. 200 - 250 Taxation & Depression.

    Seal 4. 250 - 300 Decay and Death.

    Seal 5. 303 - 313 Christian Martyrs.

    Seal 6. 313 - 395 Fall of Paganism. " (The First Six Seals)

    Who determines the parameters of these arbitrary time frames!?!

    BTW Ricky, what eschatological camp do you fall into? Would you consider yourself a historicist? And what about you Wayne, what would you label yourself?

    For years I've jokingly referred to myself as a preposta-millennialist (sounds like preposterous :p) because I believe that Christ came in judgment prior to the millennium (pre-); that from the perspective of eternity His Kingdom will be seen as a glorious Golden Age of the Gospel (post-); and that the millennium isn't strictly a 1,000 yr span of time, but a symbol of a long span of time (a-). If I had to pick only one category I guess I would choose awe-millennial, because it seems the more biblical than what is preposed in the other two camps.

    And I'm guessing that Paul is a full-preterist?
     
  28. ReformedWretch

    ReformedWretch Puritan Board Doctor

    Paul is a partial preterist and has debated against full preterism with much success.
     
  29. VirginiaHuguenot

    VirginiaHuguenot Puritanboard Librarian

    I think you are right, Fred. Gentry's website indicates that he pastors the Fairview Presbyterian Church (PCA) in Fountain Inn, South Carolina (near Greenville). I have friend near Greenville who is friends with Gentry so I will try to confirm it that way as well.

    https://host186.ipowerweb.com/~kenneth1/about.htm
     
  30. VERITAS

    VERITAS Puritan Board Freshman

    Sorry Paul. It was probably the photo behind you, the slight resemblance to Ward Fenley when his head is shaved, the pipe, the rabid way in which you're out to argue/defend your position... I've listened to those guys for so long that I guess I'm always a little more wary than necessary.

    Glad to hear that you guys have the backbone to state the brutal truth about fool-preterism.

    BTW Adam, I looked in Chilton's commentary on The Revelation and he simply says that no one knows exactly who this Antipas was and goes on.


    [Edited on 1-6-2005 by VERITAS]
     
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