Antipas, a solid rebuttal to preterism?

Status
Not open for further replies.

ReformedWretch

Puritan Board Doctor
My faithful martyr

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where
thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's
seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my
name, and hast not denied my faith,
even in those days wherein Antipas
[was] my faithful martyr, who
was slain among you,
where Satan dwelleth.

Jesus calls
Antipas my faithful martyr

AND

Antipas is the only follower
actually named as martyr in Revelation.

Antipas was a leader in the church
at Pergamos in 83 AD

Antipas was later martred in
Pergamos on April 11, 90 AD

It is said that Antipas was
consecrated bishop of Pergamos
by the Apostle John himself!

Well,
that certainly makes sense now

Irenaeus speaks of Revelation
Irenaeus (circa 180 AD)

says of the book--

"For it was seen, not a long time
ago, but almost in our own generation,
at the END of the reign of Domitian"
(Adv. Haer., v.30, 3).

And St John was exiled to the Isle of
Patmos by Domitian in 95 AD

Domitian was Emperor of Rome from
September 14, 81 AD - September 18, 96 AD

Here´s Domitian´s coin

http://dougsmith.ancients.info/feac49dom.html

The Revelation of Jesus Christ
was made known in 96 AD and is a
book of Prophecy.

Rev 1:3 Rev 11:6 Rev 19:10
Rev 22:7 Rev 22:10 Rev 22:18
Rev 22:19

The fate of Antipas is recorded
by Simeon Metaphrastes.

The martyred Saint Antipas is
celebrated on April 11th
 

ReformedWretch

Puritan Board Doctor
Well, I did find this;

the death of Antipas is disputed here by prominent church historian Schaff (who wrote in preface he believed the early dating):

History of the Christian Church, chapter 6

The heathen historians, if we are to judge from their silence, seem to confine the persecution to the city of Rome, but later Christian writers extend it to the provinces.528 The example set by the emperor in the capital could hardly be without influence in the provinces, and would justify the outbreak of popular hatred. If the Apocalypse was written under Nero, or shortly after his death, John's exile to Patmos must be connected with this persecution. It mentions imprisonments in Smyrna, the martyrdom of Antipas in Pergamus, and speaks of the murder of prophets and saints and all that have been slain on the earth. The Epistle to the Hebrews 10:32-34, which was written in Italy, probably in the year 64, likewise alludes to bloody persecutions, and to the release of Timothy from prison, 13:23. And Peter, in his first Epistle, which may be assigned to the same year, immediately after the outbreak of the persecution, and shortly before his death, warns the Christians in Asia Minor of a fiery trial which is to try them, and of sufferings already endured or to be endured, not for any crime, but for the name of "Christians."530 The name "Babylon"531 for Rome is most easily explained by the time and circumstances of composition.
 

wsw201

Puritan Board Senior
Originally posted by Paul manata
Here's what Ken Gentry wrote me about this

Two issues limit the usefulness of this statement for undermining the early date: (1) Such names back then were common enough that we cannot be sure if we have the right one. For instance, consider the debate over "I John, your companion in tribulation" (Rev. 1:9). Most evangelicals believe this identifies John the Apostle (as I do). But there is a large argument that applies it to "John the Elder" (even appearing in Eusebius' writings as such).

(2) The name may, in fact, be a symbolic name: Antipas means "against" (anti) + "all" (from pantos).

Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., M. Div., Th. M., Th. D.
Sounds like Gentry is reaching.
 

Peter

Puritan Board Junior
If Wayne Wylie were a famous martyr and the verse only said "Wayne" was martyred I would assume it was Wayne Wylie. Not conclusive, but compelling (unless you're prejudiced by your presuppositions to begin with).

[Edited on 5-1-2005 by Peter]
 

wsw201

Puritan Board Senior
Originally posted by Peter
If Wayne Wylie were a famous martyr and the verse only said "Wayne" was martyred I would assume it was Wayne Wylie. Not conclusive, but compelling (unless you're prejudiced by your presuppositions to begin with).

[Edited on 5-1-2005 by Peter]
If they identified "Wayne" with a particular church I went to and there were no other "Waynes" there. the evidence would be pretty compelling that it was me! Just as its pretty compelling that the writer of the Revelation was John the Apostle not some other John.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, odds are its a duck and not a goose.
 

Irishcat922

Puritan Board Sophomore
Originally posted by Paul manata
Here's what Ken Gentry wrote me about this

Two issues limit the usefulness of this statement for undermining the early date: (1) Such names back then were common enough that we cannot be sure if we have the right one. For instance, consider the debate over "I John, your companion in tribulation" (Rev. 1:9). Most evangelicals believe this identifies John the Apostle (as I do). But there is a large argument that applies it to "John the Elder" (even appearing in Eusebius' writings as such).

(2) The name may, in fact, be a symbolic name: Antipas means "against" (anti) + "all" (from pantos).

Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., M. Div., Th. M., Th. D.
Wow! Ken Gentry is a Jr. on top of all those other titles that is amazing.:bigsmile:
 

wsw201

Puritan Board Senior
Originally posted by Paul manata
If they identified "Wayne" with a particular church I went to and there were no other "Waynes" there.
I guess this would need to be proven, huh? If Wayne was a *common* name, which it isn't, why should I assume that it was Wayne Wylie?

I'd love to see a formal argument for your ideas. How would it look?
You would assume that it was Wayne Wylie because there there are "no other" Waynes at that Church. Its as simple as that. Its not that tough to figure out.
 

Peter

Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by houseparent
My faithful martyr

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where
thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's
seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my
name, and hast not denied my faith,
even in those days wherein Antipas
[was] my faithful martyr, who
was slain among you,
where Satan dwelleth.

Antipas was a leader in the church
at Pergamos in 83 AD
...
Antipas was later martred in
Pergamos on April 11, 90 AD
...
It is said that Antipas was
consecrated bishop of Pergamos
by the Apostle John himself!
...
The fate of Antipas is recorded
by Simeon Metaphrastes.

John ordains the Antipas martyred in 90 A.D. John speaks of a martyr named Antipas in Revelation. You cant even say, "seems probable they are the same Antipas, but other facts I believe about Rev. preclude me from saying so."?
 

wsw201

Puritan Board Senior
John ordains the Antipas martyred in 90 A.D. John speaks of a martyr named Antipas in Revelation. You cant even say, "seems probable they are the same Antipas, but other facts I believe about Rev. preclude me from saying so."?
Sounds like you can't get past your presuppositions? :cool:
 

VERITAS

Puritan Board Freshman
Well at least we know which Kenneth Gentry we're talking about! Maybe... Try doing a whitepages.com search for "Kenneth Gentry" and it will tell you that there are too many results to be displayed. Knowing that Ken lives in TX you could limit the search to just TX, but even that provides a list of 61 potential Kenneth Gentrys!

Oh well, at least Herod Antipas got to bask in the glory that his name invoked on gushing new parents...


[Edited on 1-5-2005 by VERITAS]
 

ReformedWretch

Puritan Board Doctor
Thing is Wayne, I have to consider the logic being used here because the whole "Antipas" issue cannot over come all the other evidences given. To take the "Antipas agrument" over all the others is to cede quite a bit. If one would place all the evidence on a scale, it would leave the "Antipas proves Revelation was written after AD70" argument on the wanting side.
 

ReformedWretch

Puritan Board Doctor
Originally posted by VERITAS
Well at least we know which Kenneth Gentry we're talking about! Maybe... Try doing a whitepages.com search for "Kenneth Gentry" and it will tell you that there are too many results to be displayed. Knowing that Ken lives in TX you could limit the search to just TX, but even that provides a list of 61 potential Kenneth Gentrys!

Oh well, at least Herod Antipas' got to bask in the glory that his name invoked on gushing new parents...
Hello Veritas, welcome to the board. What a thread to make your first post in!
 

wsw201

Puritan Board Senior
Originally posted by houseparent
Thing is Wayne, I have to consider the logic being used here because the whole "Antipas" issue cannot over come all the other evidences given. To take the "Antipas agrument" over all the others is to cede quite a bit. If one would place all the evidence on a scale, it would leave the "Antipas proves Revelation was written after AD70" argument on the wanting side.
Adam,

True the Antipas argument in and of itself would not convince a preterist, partial or otherwise. But then again it is another arrow in the quiver of the non-preterist, partial or otherwise :D

(if you haven't figured it out I'm not a preterist, partial or otherwise).
 

VirginiaHuguenot

Puritanboard Librarian
I'm just mulling over these things myself, but to quote Sherlock Holmes, "It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

~ The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet (1892)
 

ReformedWretch

Puritan Board Doctor
Oh I figured that out :lol:

May I ask what your perspective is then? I mean I can respect any and all opinions but I would like to know your take on it.
 

VERITAS

Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by houseparentTo take the "Antipas agrument" over all the others is to cede quite a bit.
I agree that it cedes quite a lot. So, what would be the benefits or the consequences of denying an early date based upon the "evidence" of Antipas?

It still wouldn't prove the diSpENSATIONAL model true and it would make The Revelation a bit of useless fancy, mere filler to the tome of Scripture. What would be the point of 2 witnesses, calculating the number of the beast, describing the character of the great whore, etc.?

And would a late date have more of an apologetic value when witnessing to Jews or less?

BTW, hi Adam. Thanks for the welcome!

Edit: Elkton, MD huh? I had Tyler, TX in mind. I guess I was thinking of Gary North...


[Edited on 1-5-2005 by VERITAS]

[Edited on 1-5-2005 by VERITAS]
 

VirginiaHuguenot

Puritanboard Librarian
Paul, Just out of curiosity, where does Gentry go to church/minister? On the SCCCS website, it says that Gentry is pastor of an OPC church in Costa Mesa, CA. I have friends in Elkton...
 

VirginiaHuguenot

Puritanboard Librarian
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Paul, Just out of curiosity, where does Gentry go to church/minister? On the SCCCS website, it says that Gentry is pastor of an OPC church in Costa Mesa, CA. I have friends in Elkton...
SCCCS is outdated. Gentry left the OPC and is a PCA pastor. I don't know the name I can ask him, though. The costa mesa church was Bahnsen's old Church that Gentry took over after Dr. Bahnsen went to be with the Lord.
Ah, that is interesting. I appreciate the info. If you have the opportunity to inquire further, I'd be glad to know more.
 

wsw201

Puritan Board Senior
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by wsw201
Originally posted by houseparent
Thing is Wayne, I have to consider the logic being used here because the whole "Antipas" issue cannot over come all the other evidences given. To take the "Antipas agrument" over all the others is to cede quite a bit. If one would place all the evidence on a scale, it would leave the "Antipas proves Revelation was written after AD70" argument on the wanting side.
Adam,

True the Antipas argument in and of itself would not convince a preterist, partial or otherwise. But then again it is another arrow in the quiver of the non-preterist, partial or otherwise :D

(if you haven't figured it out I'm not a preterist, partial or otherwise).
Wayne, I'm sorry, I haven't seen the arrow. Maybe you could lay out an argument for me???
LogicBoy,

I have a call in for Spock back in Vulcan. I thought I would check with him to make sure my argument is not contradictory or apparently contradictory or a paradox. I wouldn't want you to have to call be a "reductio" or something like that! As soon as I hear back from Spock I will lay out my argument. :lol:
 

RickyReformed

Puritan Board Freshman
Have any preterists (partial or otherwise) commented on E. B. Elliott's Horae Apocalypticae? The material in these audio messages titled Preterism Refuted comes from this book. I haven't listened to these audio messages yet so I can't comment on them, nor have I read Elliot's book (2,500 pages). Here's a description of the book and it's author:

E.B. Elliot (1793-1875)

The title continues: "Illustrated by an Apocalyptic Chart, and Engravings from Medals and Other Extant Monuments of Antiquity. With Appendices: Containing, Besides Other matters, A Sketch of the History of Apocalyptic Interpretation, Critical Reviews of the Chief Apocalyptic Counter-Schemes, and Indices." This four volume set is respected by many as a scholarly work on eschatology. It will be especially valuable in our day as it absolutely destroys the Jesuit inspired preterist system by conclusively proving a late date for the writing of the book of Revelation. Elliott also demonstrates the impossibility of the futurist system, which, like preterism, was also concocted (as a system) by the Jesuits to counteract the classic Reformation eschatology called historicism. That this is no small issue is clear, as Kevin Reed exhibits (in his book review titled "The Ecclesiology of John Foxe: A book review by Kevin Reed of John Foxe and the Elizabethan Church by V. Norskov Olsen [Berkeley: University of California Press, 1973]") by citing Olsen when he writes,

The Counter Reformation is generally considered to have three aspects: the Jesuits, the Inquisition, and the Council of Trent. In view of the significance of the Protestant apocalyptic interpretation of history which prophetically pinpointed step by step the events covering the whole Christian era from the beginning to the end, it seems justifiable to suggest a fourth aspect, namely the praeteristic and futuristic interpretations launched by Catholic expositors as a counterattack (p. 47).

All the major Reformers and all the major Reformation creeds and confessions adopted the historicist position "” and it is this position that Elliott so skillfully defends. Included in Horae Apocalypticae you will also find a very useful historical survey of who held which positions concerning eschatology, much history on the Roman empire (and its interaction with Christianity), how the Reformation, Islam, etc. were prophesied in the Apocalypse, a world chronology according to the Hebrew Scriptures (which would make the Earth 6127 years old), patristic views of prophecy, the beast and his mark (666) revealed, and much more. The Papacy is also shown to be the apocalyptic antichrist, which was a standard position among the Reformers. Elliott also deals with Moses Stuart's Preterism.
Biographical Information

"Edward Bishop Elliott (1793-1875), scholarly prophetic expositor, received his education at Trinity College, Cambridge, graduating in 1816. After traveling in Italy and Greece he was given the vicarage of Tuxford, Nottingham, in 1824, and later was made prebendary of Heytesbury, Wiltshire. In 1849 he became incumbent of St. Mark's Church, Brighton. A member of the Evangelical school, he was an earnest promoter of missionary enterprise and an ardent advocate of premillenialism. Elliott was thoroughly equipped as a scholar and was deeply interested in prophecy, spending a lifetime in investigation and seeking to understand God's mind thereon.

His Horae Apocalypticae (Hours with the Apocalypse) [literally 'time with the Apocalypse'] is doubtless the most elaborate word ever produced on the Apocalypse... Begun in 1837, its 2500 pages of often involved and overloaded text are buttressed by some 10,000 invaluable references to ancient and modern works bearing on the topics under discussion.... Perhaps its most unique feature is the concluding sketch of the rise and spread of the Jesuit counter systems of interpretation that had made such inroads upon Protestantism. Holding unswervingly to the Historical School of interpretation, Elliott gives the most complete exposure of these counter interpretations to be found." (The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Leroy Froom vol. III, pgs. 716-718)

Elliott stressed the evidence of the illustrative coins and medallions of the centuries as an original contribution in the field of prophetic/historical evidence.
from http://www.historicist.com/horae.htm

[Edited on 6-1-2005 by RickyReformed]
 

fredtgreco

Vanilla Westminsterian
Staff member
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Paul, Just out of curiosity, where does Gentry go to church/minister? On the SCCCS website, it says that Gentry is pastor of an OPC church in Costa Mesa, CA. I have friends in Elkton...
SCCCS is outdated. Gentry left the OPC and is a PCA pastor. I don't know the name I can ask him, though. The costa mesa church was Bahnsen's old Church that Gentry took over after Dr. Bahnsen went to be with the Lord.
Ah, that is interesting. I appreciate the info. If you have the opportunity to inquire further, I'd be glad to know more.
I believe he is now the pastor of a PCA church in South Carolina. I can find out more this week.
 

bigheavyq

Puritan Board Freshman
date of revelation

of course there is always the interpretation of Joseph Braswell. He believes in the late date and that revelation is more of a newspaper report describing what happened at the destruction of jerusalem. btw I have real problems with this interpretation.

He wrote it many years ago in the Chalcedon Report, I don't have the link. sorry.
 

VERITAS

Puritan Board Freshman
Thanks for the links Ricky. The audio sermons are very tedious listening. Perhaps reading the original would be easier to follow. But I would just say that the historicist method doesn't do justice to the sacred text, intent or original audience of The Revelation and thus fails to satisfy. How anyone can come up with the following nonsense is mind-boggling:

"The successive time periods during which these Seven Seals occurred are as follows. The dates quoted are merely guides, as each period overlapped to some degree with its neighbouring period, and some authorities vary as to the actual event which marks a particular period.

Seal 1. 96 - 180 A.D. Rome Victorious.

Seal 2. 185 - 284. Civil War.

Seal 3. 200 - 250 Taxation & Depression.

Seal 4. 250 - 300 Decay and Death.

Seal 5. 303 - 313 Christian Martyrs.

Seal 6. 313 - 395 Fall of Paganism. " (The First Six Seals)

Who determines the parameters of these arbitrary time frames!?!

BTW Ricky, what eschatological camp do you fall into? Would you consider yourself a historicist? And what about you Wayne, what would you label yourself?

For years I've jokingly referred to myself as a preposta-millennialist (sounds like preposterous :p) because I believe that Christ came in judgment prior to the millennium (pre-); that from the perspective of eternity His Kingdom will be seen as a glorious Golden Age of the Gospel (post-); and that the millennium isn't strictly a 1,000 yr span of time, but a symbol of a long span of time (a-). If I had to pick only one category I guess I would choose awe-millennial, because it seems the more biblical than what is preposed in the other two camps.

And I'm guessing that Paul is a full-preterist?
 

VirginiaHuguenot

Puritanboard Librarian
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Paul, Just out of curiosity, where does Gentry go to church/minister? On the SCCCS website, it says that Gentry is pastor of an OPC church in Costa Mesa, CA. I have friends in Elkton...
SCCCS is outdated. Gentry left the OPC and is a PCA pastor. I don't know the name I can ask him, though. The costa mesa church was Bahnsen's old Church that Gentry took over after Dr. Bahnsen went to be with the Lord.
Ah, that is interesting. I appreciate the info. If you have the opportunity to inquire further, I'd be glad to know more.
I believe he is now the pastor of a PCA church in South Carolina. I can find out more this week.
I think you are right, Fred. Gentry's website indicates that he pastors the Fairview Presbyterian Church (PCA) in Fountain Inn, South Carolina (near Greenville). I have friend near Greenville who is friends with Gentry so I will try to confirm it that way as well.

https://host186.ipowerweb.com/~kenneth1/about.htm
 

VERITAS

Puritan Board Freshman
Sorry Paul. It was probably the photo behind you, the slight resemblance to Ward Fenley when his head is shaved, the pipe, the rabid way in which you're out to argue/defend your position... I've listened to those guys for so long that I guess I'm always a little more wary than necessary.

Glad to hear that you guys have the backbone to state the brutal truth about fool-preterism.

BTW Adam, I looked in Chilton's commentary on The Revelation and he simply says that no one knows exactly who this Antipas was and goes on.


[Edited on 1-6-2005 by VERITAS]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top