Anglicanism and Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace' started by rembrandt, Jun 6, 2004.

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  1. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    Are there any present day Anglican churches that subscribe to the five points of Calvinism? Predestination is in their 39 articles, but that doesn't tell me much. I know there are "Reformed Anglican" churches. But I don't really understand their theology other than that they are "low-church" compared to the Anglo-Catholics.

    Help??

    Paul
     
  2. Puritan Sailor

    Puritan Sailor Puritan Board Doctor

    There ia a Reformed Anglican denomination but it is rather small. There are also reformed Anglicans like JI Packer.
     
  3. Irishcat922

    Irishcat922 Puritan Board Sophomore

    There is a reformed Anglican church here in Fort Worth that holds strongly to the Thirty-nine articles. They were some of the staunchest critics of the recent ordination of that gay bishop in Mass. I can't remember his name off the top of my head. They opposed it rather vehemently.
     
  4. Craig

    Craig Puritan Board Senior

    HERE is a link to an evangelical Anglican denom with parishes in Florida...appears to be Reformed.

    HERE is a reformed anglican website...right now you can't search for their churches...not sure why, but I'm sure they'll fix that soon.

    [Edited on 6-7-2004 by Craig]
     
  5. duke

    duke Puritan Board Freshman

    The Sydney Anglican churches would be Reformed. They are typically called the "Puritans from down under", "fundamentalists who take their Bible literally" etc. You can find a bit more about them at http://www.anglicanmedia.com.au/
     
  6. Scott

    Scott Puritan Board Graduate

    Sean: I thin the church in FW you are thinking of is St. Andrews. Also, Bishop Iker is of FW and is very conservative. He is one of the leaders of the movement to have a doctrinally conservative network within the ECUSA.

    Rembrandt: I think you will find a mixture of Calvinists and non-Calvinists in the conservative wing of the Anglican church (outside the conservative wing, you will find many things, including rank heresy).
     
  7. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    Any [i:ec2dd97b31]five point[/i:ec2dd97b31] Calvinists?

    Who are some people known within the "Reformed" community who go to Anglican churches? I saw J.I. Packer named above, can you think of any others? Is N.T. Wright (Anglican bishop) the same guy that is popular among "Reformed?"

    Paul

    [Edited on 6-7-2004 by rembrandt]
     
  8. Me Died Blue

    Me Died Blue Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Alister McGrath
     
  9. yeutter

    yeutter Puritan Board Senior

    The Traditional Protestant Episcopal Church is thoroughly Reformed. Its Web site is:

    http://www.reformer.org

    Their are individual parishes within several Anglican denominations that are thoroughly committed to the 39 Articles.
     
  10. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    Just another reason to wonder what they see in him???

    NT Wright is arminian, if he is definable at all. That comes out pretty clear (to me) in his [i:728593d62d]What St. Paul Really Said.[/i:728593d62d]
     
  11. Timothy William

    Timothy William Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:81c4ff81e0][i:81c4ff81e0]Originally posted by duke[/i:81c4ff81e0]
    The Sydney Anglican churches would be Reformed. They are typically called the "Puritans from down under", "fundamentalists who take their Bible literally" etc. You can find a bit more about them at http://www.anglicanmedia.com.au/ [/quote:81c4ff81e0]

    I wouldn't say that many of the Sydney Anglicans would be five point Calvinists. There are certainly are large number of them who believe in total depravity and have a reformed understanding of predestination but I doubt it goes much further than that except for a small minority. I personally have much to be thankful for to the Sydnay Anglicans, they were, indirectly, my main spiritual influence for the first few years of my christian life, but they do have their weaknesses.
     
  12. yeutter

    yeutter Puritan Board Senior

    Bruce, I also fail to understand the attraction to Bishop N. T. Wright holds for some Presbyterian/Reformed types.
     
  13. Ranger

    Ranger Puritan Board Freshman

    I know some guys on staff at Christ Church Episcopal in Plano. They are the largest Episcopal church in America, and of the ones I know one is Arminian in reality (although he claims otherwise), but the rest are Reformed.
     
  14. Me Died Blue

    Me Died Blue Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Thomas, did you ever get the U2U I sent you?
     
  15. cih1355

    cih1355 Puritan Board Junior

    Do Anglicans of the conservative wing believe in baptismal regeneration?
     
  16. yeutter

    yeutter Puritan Board Senior

    Some conservative high Church Anglicans believe in Baptismal Regeneration much like the Lutherans do. Some believe in presumptive regeneration..
     
  17. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    Is Bishop J.C. Ryle the same J.C. Ryle that Reformed folks know?
     
  18. Scott

    Scott Puritan Board Graduate

    [quote:d31aa7390c]
    Some conservative high Church Anglicans believe in Baptismal Regeneration much like the Lutherans do. Some believe in presumptive regeneration..
    [/quote:d31aa7390c]

    They typically don't use the word "regeneration" in the same way Reformed do, though, do they? The word has become something of a term of art in Reformed circles, although it has a variety of meanings in other theological schools of thought.
     
  19. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    [quote:14e551c783][i:14e551c783]Originally posted by yeutter[/i:14e551c783]
    Bruce, I also fail to understand the attraction to Bishop N. T. Wright holds for some Presbyterian/Reformed types. [/quote:14e551c783]

    The Presbyterian's I know that like Wright either like the novelty that Wright brings to the table (everyone wants to "cutting edge") or they are fairly new to the Reformed faith and don't completely understand what Wright is talking about. Folks who are new to the Reformed faith need to be very careful when reading anything from Wright. In fact they should stay away from him completely.
     
  20. Timothy William

    Timothy William Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:044cf1a87d][i:044cf1a87d]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:044cf1a87d]
    Is Bishop J.C. Ryle the same J.C. Ryle that Reformed folks know? [/quote:044cf1a87d]

    Yes, he was the first Church of England Bishop of Liverpool. He denied (or at least didn't affirm) limited atonement, was a sort of 4 point Calvinist.
     
  21. cih1355

    cih1355 Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:4f56a9502a][i:4f56a9502a]Originally posted by yeutter[/i:4f56a9502a]
    Some conservative high Church Anglicans believe in Baptismal Regeneration much like the Lutherans do. Some believe in presumptive regeneration.. [/quote:4f56a9502a]

    How can someone's faith be in Christ alone for their salvation if he or she believes that baptism regenerates people?
     
  22. Scott

    Scott Puritan Board Graduate

    Curt:

    In the same way that one could believe that the preaching of the Word regenerates people. Anglicans would affirm that the work of baptism is attributable completely to the Holy Spirit, who is present in baptism. The Spirit works to instill, increase, and stregthen faith through baptism. It is this faith that saves and is the alone instrument of salvation. Baptism is not an instrument of salvation.

    Sola Fide does not mean that God does not use means to implant, stregthen and increase faith. God uses the Word, prayer, baptism, and the Lord's Supper. So, faith alone does not mean faith apart from the Word, faith apart from prayer, faith apart from baptism, etc.

    Scott
     
  23. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

  24. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    [quote:09ff22d462][i:09ff22d462]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:09ff22d462]
    [quote:09ff22d462]How can someone's faith be in Christ alone for their salvation if he or she believes that baptism regenerates people?[/quote:09ff22d462]

    Read this:
    http://www.hornes.org/theologia/con...he_reformed_tradition_past_present_future.htm [/quote:09ff22d462]

    Fortunately Mr. Lusk does not set doctrine for the Church. The Church does. The fact that he can pick and chose quotes from Calvin and some Puritans bolstering his position regarding baptismal regeneration then blame "Reformed Scholasticism" for abandoning the cause is ridiculous. I don't speak for the Anglican Church but the Westminster Standards do not support baptismal regeneration in any form by the application of water. Under Mr. Lusk's scenario, baptism no longer is a sign of an inward grace, but the initiator of that inward grace.
     
  25. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    I think he is a Presbyterian actually. I see your concerns. Do you think we can suppose that baptismal regeneration was historically regarded as heresy?
     
  26. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    [quote:5d05119632][i:5d05119632]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:5d05119632]
    I think he is a Presbyterian actually. I see your concerns. Do you think we can suppose that baptismal regeneration was historically regarded as heresy? [/quote:5d05119632]

    Actually Lusk is one of the Pastors at Auburn Ave. Presbyterian Church and is one of the proponents of the Federal Vision. The Sr Pastor at AAPC also advocates Baptismal Regeneration.

    Yes, Baptismal Regeneration is heresy.
     
  27. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:0de1a64b4e]Yes, Baptismal Regeneration is heresy.[/quote:0de1a64b4e]

    Historically?
     
  28. Scott

    Scott Puritan Board Graduate

    I don't know what Rusk teaches, but this is a helpful quote from Calvin, which would refute a view that children are not Christians until baptism:

    [quote:c7fd6d5179]
    "Paul teaches that the children of believers are born holy (First Corinthians 7:14).... They do not become the sons of God through baptism. But because in virtue of the promise they are heirs of adoption, therefore the Church admits them to baptism.... As in Abraham the father of the faithful, the righteousness of faith preceded circumcision -- so in the children of the faithful in the present day, the gift of adoption is prior to baptism."
    [/quote:c7fd6d5179]

    I think this would be contra a Lutheran or Augustinian position.

    BTW, I am not sure what Wayne means by baptismal regeneration (I think there are many meanings to this term), but the larger problems in the reformed churches I have been a part of is the lack of understanding that the sacraments are effectual to salvation and are actual means of grace by which the Holy Spirit stregthens and increases our faith (in a supernatural way, not is a mere memorialistic or didactic way).

    Scott
     
  29. wsw201

    wsw201 Puritan Board Senior

    [quote:858e5805fa][i:858e5805fa]Originally posted by Scott[/i:858e5805fa]
    I don't know what Rusk teaches, but this is a helpful quote from Calvin, which would refute a view that children are not Christians until baptism:

    [quote:858e5805fa]
    "Paul teaches that the children of believers are born holy (First Corinthians 7:14).... They do not become the sons of God through baptism. But because in virtue of the promise they are heirs of adoption, therefore the Church admits them to baptism.... As in Abraham the father of the faithful, the righteousness of faith preceded circumcision -- so in the children of the faithful in the present day, the gift of adoption is prior to baptism."
    [/quote:858e5805fa]

    I think this would be contra a Lutheran or Augustinian position.

    BTW, I am not sure what Wayne means by baptismal regeneration (I think there are many meanings to this term), but the larger problems in the reformed churches I have been a part of is the lack of understanding that the sacraments are effectual to salvation and are actual means of grace by which the Holy Spirit stregthens and increases our faith (in a supernatural way, not is a mere memorialistic or didactic way).

    Scott [/quote:858e5805fa]

    Scott,

    What I mean by Baptismal Regeneration is what Lusk is saying. Whether you take the word Regeneration in a broad sense as the Reformers did or a more narrow sense, it still means "renewal". And that renewal in any theological or biblical sense of the word is based on the activity of the Holy Spirit. The argument is not the effectualness of baptism or the Lord's Supper, but who are they effectual for in the visible church? To say that baptism is an effectual means of salvation can only mean that they are effectual for the elect. Not just anyone who gets baptized. What Lusk is arguing is that baptism can effectually "initiate" the activity of the Holy Spirit, which is counter to what the Standards teach (WCF 28, 5 & 6).

    Paul,

    The fact that someone can point to a situation or theologian in the past and say "well they believed it" does not make it any less a heresy. Arianism was quite popular in the early church until it was condemned at Nicea. To paraphrase Cyprian "there is no error like an old error."
     
  30. cih1355

    cih1355 Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:1c215a069a][i:1c215a069a]Originally posted by Scott[/i:1c215a069a]
    Curt:

    In the same way that one could believe that the preaching of the Word regenerates people. Anglicans would affirm that the work of baptism is attributable completely to the Holy Spirit, who is present in baptism. The Spirit works to instill, increase, and stregthen faith through baptism. It is this faith that saves and is the alone instrument of salvation. Baptism is not an instrument of salvation.

    Sola Fide does not mean that God does not use means to implant, stregthen and increase faith. God uses the Word, prayer, baptism, and the Lord's Supper. So, faith alone does not mean faith apart from the Word, faith apart from prayer, faith apart from baptism, etc.

    Scott [/quote:1c215a069a]

    According to the Anglican view, wouldn't it be correct to say that they believe that the Holy Spirit regenerates you when you are baptized instead of baptism regenerates you?Saying, "baptism regenerates you", sounds like that it is the baptism that has the regenerating power.
     
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