Ancient Rome (Pre-410 AD) as the great city of Revelation

[dnlcnwy]

This is the first time I have posted my views on Revelation on this Board. In short I believe in the late date for the authorship of Revelation and that the book is primarily a metaphor for the conflict between the early church and the Roman Empire. The passages on the fall of Babylon are about the sack of Rome in AD 410. I am Amil and have a few more ideas about the identity of some of the symbols in Revelation that I will post as this thread (hopefully) unfolds.

 

[Peairtach]

Well Greg Bahnsen held to the early date for Revelation, and believed that Babylon was pagan Rome like yourself.

I think Babylon/the Whore is probably the apostate Church dominated by the Church of Rome. See e.g. Patrick Fairbairn's "The Interpretation of Prophecy" (Banner of Truth), which is probably also online.

But I take certain of my views on Revelation with a pinch of salt, as it is a difficult book in places.

 

[dnlcnwy]

I have heard that interpretation also. The thing of it is when we look to OT apocalypses (Daniel, Ezekial) for clues on how to interpret Revelation we consistently encounter the theme Beast = kingdom, and not a spiritual kingdom but a secualar one. Looking now at Revelation 13 we find two beasts, the sea beast and the land beast, arising consecutively within the lifespan of Ancient Rome. The only two kingdoms that ruled over the Empire during that period were the pagan and (ostensibly) Christian Roman Empires. Note that Gibbons himself noted the sharp contrast between the administration of the Early Empire and the Latter Empire so I think it is fair to treat them as two different kingdoms. And I think in light of some of the negative things Revelation has to say about the earth beast we can conclude that the latter Empire was every bit as pernicious to the true faith as the early empire was.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

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[Peairtach]

I have heard that interpretation also. The thing of it is when we look to OT apocalypses (Daniel, Ezekial) for clues on how to interpret Revelation we consistently encounter the theme Beast = kingdom, and not a spiritual kingdom but a secualar one. Looking now at Revelation 13 we find two beasts, the sea beast and the land beast, arising consecutively within the lifespan of Ancient Rome. The only two kingdoms that ruled over the Empire during that period were the pagan and (ostensibly) Christian Roman Empires. Note that Gibbons himself noted the sharp contrast between the administration of the Early Empire and the Latter Empire so I think it is fair to treat them as two different kingdoms. And I think in light of some of the negative things Revelation has to say about the earth beast we can conclude that the latter Empire was every bit as pernicious to the true faith as the early empire was.

The apostate OT Church/Israel is often compared to a whore in the OT, so why should the Woman (NT Church) not become a whore if she is unfaithful to Christ?

The Beast from the Sea represents pagan and statist persecution, embodied in the first century by Nero, but still with us in other forms.

The Beast from the Earth represents antichrists and Antichrist i.e. false teaching embodied in the first century in Christian Gnosticism and various compromises with pagan Rome, ultimately leading to the Papacy. We still have such antichists with us viz. the Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Liberal Theology, etc, etc.

These two forces of persecution and false teaching are the twin enemies of the Church down through the centuries. The Woman or New Jerusalem is tempted to become unfaithful because of these twin agents of Satan (the Serpent or Dragon). Thus the Woman is tempted to go "a-whoring" from Christ, as she often did in OT times.

But in the end she is cleansed and becomes the New Jerusalem/the Bride of Christ.

So Revelation is the story of the Church from the end of the OT Church with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans

Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. (Gal 4:25, ESV)

through the early NT Church (the Woman in the Desert) which because of pressure from persecution (Beast from the Sea) and from false teaching (Beast from the Earth) in various ways apostasises and is unfaithful to Christ and becomes the Whore Babylon in the Desert.

But everything works out in the end.

The thing of it is when we look to OT apocalypses (Daniel, Ezekial) for clues on how to interpret Revelation we consistently encounter the theme Beast = kingdom, and not a spiritual kingdom but a secualar one.

Old Jerusalem >The Woman > Whore/Babylon > Bride/New Jerusalem - these characters are the same Person i.e. the Church, under different guises and at different stages -
is distinguished from the Dragon, the Beast (Beast from the Sea) and the False Prophet (Beast from the Earth), but interacts with these other eschatalogical characters.

 

[dnlcnwy]

I agree with many of the conclusions you reach, but disagree with your method of reaching them. There were tremendous forces operating against the church in the early centuries of her existance, and many in the face of these forces did apostasize. The example in Daniel of what the nature of a beast is is too strong for me not to conclude that each of the beasts of Rev. 13 represents a kingdom. The first attempts to destroy the church by open persecution, and the second attempts to destroy her by tempting her to a state sponsored apostate church.

 

[Dennis1963]

This is the first time I have posted my views on Revelation on this Board. In short I believe in the late date for the authorship of Revelation and that the book is primarily a metaphor for the conflict between the early church and the Roman Empire. The passages on the fall of Babylon are about the sack of Rome in AD 410. I am Amil and have a few more ideas about the identity of some of the symbols in Revelation that I will post as this thread (hopefully) unfolds.

I'll be watching to see how it unfolds. I have my understanding also.

 

[Peairtach]

The example in Daniel of what the nature of a beast is is too strong for me not to conclude that each of the beasts of Rev. 13 represents a kingdom.

I believe that the Beast of the Earth - with two horns like a young lamb i.e. like Christ, also called the False Prophet - represents not only the Papacy (the Antichrist), but antichrists generally. In some ways the Papacy took on the trappings of Christian Rome once the Empire collapsed.

The "Beast" theme need only mean that these erroneous leaders of the Church have their noses in the trough and wish to build earthly kingdoms for themselves, as the Papacy did. The Papacy and other antichrists are kingdom-building beasts sitting in the Visible Catholic Church.

One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. (Rev 13:3, ESV)

The above passage may refer to the conversion of Constantine and the Empire to Christianity, when it may have looked as if Christianity had triumphed.

 

[dudley]

Amen, Richard I concur with you completely and I believe the beasts are the kingdoms the antichrist popes built for themselves in the name of Satan under the guise of the papacy, an antichrist institution and the Whore of Babylon which I believe is the Roman catholic church.

 

[Peairtach]

Amen, Richard I concur with you completely and I believe the beasts are the kingdoms the antichrist popes built for themselves in the name of Satan under the guise of the papacy, an antichrist institution and the Whore of Babylon which I believe is the Roman catholic church.

Well I would look upon apostate Christianity as indicated in Revelation as slightly broader than just the Church of Rome. The soteriology of the Eastern Orthodox Churches is also grace plus works. We also have apostasy in the Protestant Churches and "Christian" cults posing as Christian.

Revelation is a symbolical book, and everything is covered by "broad brush strokes". The idea that there is only room for teaching about one particular kind of apostasy, that of Rome, although the mother apostate church, seems unlikely.

I suppose that is covered by the fact that she is called "the Mother of Harlots", not that the Rome gave birth to all these other apostate denominations directly but because she is the chief among them. In the idiom of the Middle East this is understandable.

E.g.

His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe. (Genesis 4:21, ESV)

I believe the first beast may be unsanctified and persecutory civil government originally represented by Nero and the Roman Empire but continuing to the present day.

It's unlikely that John wants to teach generations of Christians only about Nero, but about every subsequent Nero up to the present day. We have Neros in the Muslim countries, Neros in China, and would be Neros in the West.

I believe the second beast may be antichristian and compromising Christian/"Christian" leaders, represented by such as existed in the first century but continuing to the present day, the Papacy among them.

John "leaves" the Woman in the wilderness

and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. (Rev 12:6, ESV)

But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time(Rev 12:14, ESV)

When he goes back to the wilderness he sees what she has become because of her unfaithfulness to Christ:

And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.(Rev 17:3)

 

[dnlcnwy]

I have written a brief paper addressing this subject that I would like to post somewhere on this Forum. Is this possible? Or do I have to copy and paste everything into a post here?

 

[Peairtach]

Maybe you could post it in your blog on the PB. It depends how brief it is.