Greetings, tonight I had an upsetting discussion. At the SBC church I attend with my mother where we became Reformed (the Reformed Baptist pastor is now gone) I've worked on the 'production team' for a while. I change slides or something else for each service. I informed the man who is in charge of this (the creative arts pastor) that I felt uncomfortable about some of the things happening in our church on Sunday and I've decided to stop working on the production team. Namely, under an interim pastor (non Reformed) we have added altar calls and skits into our regular services. He told me that I was making a preference issue a sin issue and I'm tending toward a legalistic spirit. He wants to discuss it further. Any advice on what do or say in the future?
Accused of Legalism in the SBC
- Thread starter W.C. Dean
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C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
Are there any confessional Reformed Baptist or Presbyterian churches in your area? My advice would be to seek out such a church, even if it involved a longer commute.
Yes I am a member of an OPC about 45 minutes away but for numerous reasons we have continued to go to this SBC church in the mornings. Would you have any advice on how to respond to what he told me?
No the interim pastor from Richmond instated them but our worship leader/creative arts pastor supports them and helps to utilize them.
JTB.SDG
Puritan Board Junior
Can you have a conversation with the interim pastor?
I could but I don't think it would be beneficial. Both his and my time at the church are limited and departure from this team directly affect the creative arts pastor, who is also a friend. I also am quite sure our interim pastor has not been formally educated or trained in theology, and the creative arts pastor is at least somewhat Calvinistic. It's a strange dynamic but basically it would probably do nothing to talk to the Interim Pastor.
Unfortunately brushing him off is not an option as he is a friend, but also he considers my position harmful to me. He told me he was worried about me. I would like to be able to make it a bit clearer for him.
Romans922
Puritan Board Professor
I'd just ignore what he said. No reason to speak further on it. You aren't a member there. He can know you disagree with what they are doing (he does know that). And you are no longer part of the production team there by relieving your conscience of that. That's how I'd respond. By not saying anything. It's probably not beneficial to in this case.
Now as to altar calls happening and other things, if I were in your shoes I wouldn't attend there. That goes against my conscience. If it goes against your conscience your liberty of conscience is being bound by their sin. I'd go somewhere else (i.e. the OPC church you are a member of).
Now as to altar calls happening and other things, if I were in your shoes I wouldn't attend there. That goes against my conscience. If it goes against your conscience your liberty of conscience is being bound by their sin. I'd go somewhere else (i.e. the OPC church you are a member of).
Thank you, I do believe that our time is limited there but it will be very difficult for me, but especially my mother to leave soon, mostly due to the friendships we have there. We haven't really been able to develop relationships yet with the OPC congregation. Also you can see above why not talking to him is not something I want to do. As untrue as it is I really don't want a friend worrying about me holding to dangerous theology. But I also fear the issues with this church are coming to a head and might soon become problematic or divisive. Which is saddening for me.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Certainly, in relation to the issues that you mention in the OP, I think it is fair to say that you are not making a preference issue a sin issue. Given that there are no biblical grounds for introducing such things into worship, the sin lies with the other party.
Perhaps it is best for you not to be so involved with this church, as you are a member of a congregation in another denomination. I realise that there are some issues that prevent you from going to the OPC church twice on the Lord's Day, and so you are wise to go somewhere else rather than sitting at home and profaning the fourth commandment by neglecting to assemble for public worship. That said, attendance at public worship is enough; you do not need to be involved in all this other stuff.
Still, I would urge you to consider to be wary of falling into an addiction to unnecessarily hardline positions. Over the years, I have noticed that all you have to do is dangle a hardline viewpoint in front of some people and they swallow the arguments without exercising any critical discrimination as to whether or not such a position is warranted. I could mention some specifics, but I will refrain for the time being.
Perhaps it is best for you not to be so involved with this church, as you are a member of a congregation in another denomination. I realise that there are some issues that prevent you from going to the OPC church twice on the Lord's Day, and so you are wise to go somewhere else rather than sitting at home and profaning the fourth commandment by neglecting to assemble for public worship. That said, attendance at public worship is enough; you do not need to be involved in all this other stuff.
Still, I would urge you to consider to be wary of falling into an addiction to unnecessarily hardline positions. Over the years, I have noticed that all you have to do is dangle a hardline viewpoint in front of some people and they swallow the arguments without exercising any critical discrimination as to whether or not such a position is warranted. I could mention some specifics, but I will refrain for the time being.
The plan:
Step 1: Every week during the altar call, you approach the front of the church weeping loudly and giving a dramatic testimony. Include possible criminal activities in your testimony.
Sometimes do this twice if the alter call is a long one.
Step 2: Volunteer to be part of ALL the skits and do it so badly they re-evaluate the drama portion of their service.
Within 3 months the church will cancel the altar call and all skits.
Step 1: Every week during the altar call, you approach the front of the church weeping loudly and giving a dramatic testimony. Include possible criminal activities in your testimony.
Sometimes do this twice if the alter call is a long one.
Step 2: Volunteer to be part of ALL the skits and do it so badly they re-evaluate the drama portion of their service.
Within 3 months the church will cancel the altar call and all skits.
Thank you for your response. I do understand what you're saying about hardline positions and I do try to avoid letting differences be divisive. I didn't bring up anything about my views on psalmody because I consider them secondary (but still important) to the other issues.
I forgot to add this, the problems with this church are strange. In some ways it is much more solid than many SBC churches, but there are so many things that would be less important on their own, but put together is where my concerns arise. Unqualified elders who purposefully avoid discipline or aid, the worship mentioned, preaching exclusively about evangelism, pretended efforts toward unity despite actual efforts to divide or undermine others in the church. I love the church, and it's impacted me more than probably any place in the future ever will, but these issues are becoming more apparent to me.
Andrew35
Puritan Board Sophomore
My dad, an IFB pastor, was telling me a few years ago that they had a guy of questionable mental health attending who came forward to the front of the church, sobbing, and gave a testimony about how he wished he were a woman and had breasts.
It did kill "testimony time," at least until he left the church several months later. Not sure if they started it up again or no....
ZackF
Puritan Board Professor
Brings a whole new meaning to the word “mourner’s bench.”
JTB.SDG
Puritan Board Junior
Gotcha. Well, maybe just get together with your friend and try to explain where you're coming from. It might be helpful for him to hear what you have to say. Maybe he hasn't been exposed to other views.
B.L.
Puritan Board Sophomore
Friend, I'd say you've got a great opportunity to sit down and make your case. Don't pass it up, as you never know how the Lord will use you in this situation.
If you decide to do so ensure you keep watch over your own demeanor and try not to pull out your TR hammer and bludgeon the man to death with it. What you describe is serious of course, but remember where you're at (SBC)...the idea of a RPW is probably foreign to those in leadership positions there. When at a vegetarian's house for dinner I don't expect steak to be on the menu.
alexandermsmith
Puritan Board Junior
I'd say to him that because of his support of blasphemous worship that you are worried about him and fear that his heretical theology is harmful to him and that you fear he does not have a proper undestanding of the holiness and transcendance of God.
It would not be profaning the Sabbath to stay at home instead of attending this SBC church and if he is unable to attend the OPC church twice. It is better to worship at home faithfully than to do so publicly but in a way which breaks the Second Commandment. The command to gather together does not void other requirements.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
You misunderstand me. I never said he should partake in second commandment violations. Simply attending a church service where the worship is imperfect does not involve one in breaking the second commandment if one abstains from what is erroneous in its worship. However, other people's violations of the second commandment do not justify your violation of the fourth - separatist purity-spiralling notwithstanding.
alexandermsmith
Puritan Board Junior
Perhaps I misread your comment. My point was that if one believes it would be a violation of his conscience to attend churches in his area- or that they are all breaking the Second Commandment in some form in their worship- it would not be a violation of the Fourth Commandment for him to remain at home rather than attending public worship.
I would take this as a genuine show of concern for your spiritual health by a friend. It is likely he has never even heard the arguments for regulated worship. I would get together with him and gently lay out your understanding of Scripture on this, have a few historical perspectives that show you are not an outlier and that your position is neither radical nor unBiblical, and that you would ask him to respect your views.
Or you can do what some others do: blast him as an idolater and shame him, tell him you question his salvation, and destroy your relationship with him and any chance of future influence so you can be proud of your "reformed" pedigree.
Your choice.
Or you can do what some others do: blast him as an idolater and shame him, tell him you question his salvation, and destroy your relationship with him and any chance of future influence so you can be proud of your "reformed" pedigree.
Your choice.
I agree with what Pastor @fredtgreco said above. The most important thing is charity.
I think the next most important thing is to ask for definitions. One of my favorite quotes ever comes from J. C. Ryle:
How is this person defining "legalist"? The problem is that when most evangelicals say someone is a "legalist," they simply mean either (1) that "you have a more strict view of something than I do," or (2) that "you have a different view on something than I do." Neither of these constitute legalism in the slightest. It's similar to people who call everyone they deem morally deficient "Hitler." "Legalism" in today's context is most often truly a meaningless term.
Therefore, why not ask this person what they mean by "legalist"? Then, offer to study the Bible to see if you both can come to a biblical definition and description of legalist, and see if you in fact are being a legalist. This will lead to repentance from at least one of you—you if you are in fact a legalist, and this person if they wrongfully accused you.
I think the next most important thing is to ask for definitions. One of my favorite quotes ever comes from J. C. Ryle:
"It may be laid down as a rule, with tolerable confidence, that the absence of accurate definitions is the very life of religious controversy. If men would only define with precision the theological terms which they use, many disputes would die. Scores of excited disputants would discover that they do not really differ, and that their disputes have arisen from their own neglect of the great duty of explaining the meaning of words."
—John Charles Ryle, Knots Untied: Being Plain Statements on Disputed Points in Religion, from the Standpoint of an Evangelical Churchman, 10th ed. (London: William Hunt and Company, 1885), 1.
—John Charles Ryle, Knots Untied: Being Plain Statements on Disputed Points in Religion, from the Standpoint of an Evangelical Churchman, 10th ed. (London: William Hunt and Company, 1885), 1.
How is this person defining "legalist"? The problem is that when most evangelicals say someone is a "legalist," they simply mean either (1) that "you have a more strict view of something than I do," or (2) that "you have a different view on something than I do." Neither of these constitute legalism in the slightest. It's similar to people who call everyone they deem morally deficient "Hitler." "Legalism" in today's context is most often truly a meaningless term.
Therefore, why not ask this person what they mean by "legalist"? Then, offer to study the Bible to see if you both can come to a biblical definition and description of legalist, and see if you in fact are being a legalist. This will lead to repentance from at least one of you—you if you are in fact a legalist, and this person if they wrongfully accused you.
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Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
I would echo what Fred has said in the above post. Following the suggested pattern of destroying everyone as heretic and idolaters whom we do not instantly see eye to eye with is not only immoral in itself, but is likely to do immense damage to the Reformed cause in the long run.
In my experience, many of the more hard-core "Reformed" types (if they may even be called Reformed at all) are more interested in simply being what Paul calls an annoying sound than they are in converting other Christians to their opinions.
In my experience, many of the more hard-core "Reformed" types (if they may even be called Reformed at all) are more interested in simply being what Paul calls an annoying sound than they are in converting other Christians to their opinions.
alexandermsmith
Puritan Board Junior
I agree with @Taylor Sexton and @Reformed Covenanter
Here is a google search page on Lloyd Jones, who would not do altar calls.
https://www.google.com/search?q=mar...rome..69i57.9471j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
One thing I found personally helpful in two situations was to ask "is that the altar?". "Hebrews says that we have an altar...is that it?" "The altar was the place of sacrifice, is that what you mean by altar?". They get confused, befuddled, and finally admit that up front by the podium or stage or wherever is not the altar. For whatever the reason, just dropping the word "altar" takes some of the power out of the stronghold. And yeah, I think it is more than habit and ritual, I think there is a demonic stronghold behind it.
Anyway, maybe ask the guy to read a couple of the articles referring to LLoyd Jones ( he was Baptist so use him in the SBC instead of paedos lol, gotta pick your back ups carefully).
By the way, you do not need to defend or explain yourself the rest of your life when you get an intuitive red flag that something is off. It helps to articulate why obviously, but don't fall into the trap that you have to argue perfectly some point. God gives us the gift of intuition, or call it discernment, that something just isn't right, and you need to listen to that. Make an attempt to reason it out, but don't expect instant reasoning all the time. Smile and be pleasant but firm and just say No.
https://www.google.com/search?q=mar...rome..69i57.9471j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
One thing I found personally helpful in two situations was to ask "is that the altar?". "Hebrews says that we have an altar...is that it?" "The altar was the place of sacrifice, is that what you mean by altar?". They get confused, befuddled, and finally admit that up front by the podium or stage or wherever is not the altar. For whatever the reason, just dropping the word "altar" takes some of the power out of the stronghold. And yeah, I think it is more than habit and ritual, I think there is a demonic stronghold behind it.
Anyway, maybe ask the guy to read a couple of the articles referring to LLoyd Jones ( he was Baptist so use him in the SBC instead of paedos lol, gotta pick your back ups carefully).
By the way, you do not need to defend or explain yourself the rest of your life when you get an intuitive red flag that something is off. It helps to articulate why obviously, but don't fall into the trap that you have to argue perfectly some point. God gives us the gift of intuition, or call it discernment, that something just isn't right, and you need to listen to that. Make an attempt to reason it out, but don't expect instant reasoning all the time. Smile and be pleasant but firm and just say No.
Jonathco
Puritan Board Sophomore
@W.C. Dean, I can sympathize with your situation, as I too attend a non-reformed church (my post here). I am at times told I am legalistic, "majoring in minors", etc. when addressing concerns over unregulated worship in our Lord's day gathering. Having said that, I too would echo what Fred said.
It was not too long ago that I knew nothing about reformed theology - many of us simply were not raised in churches where this was taught. If your friend is willing to meet and discuss this further with you, I think you would do well to sit and explain your biblically-based understanding of the matter, and doing so with grace and patience.
"preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching." 2 Timothy 4:2 (ESV)
I would imagine that like me, your time in this church may come to an end eventually, if the church continues down their path and does not align themselves to scripture, but until then, you have an opportunity to teach truth respectfully and with grace to anyone willing to hear it. Use this time wisely.
C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
Not really. If you are Reformed in your convictions and choose to attend a church with a "worship arts pastor" you can pretty well expect to be called a legalist before too long. Can two walk together unless they be agreed? And I honestly do not think you would do yourself any favor by responding. I would simply advise you to either attend the church of which you are a member or if you cannot, attempt to attend one that is more doctrinally sound.
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