Abe Lincoln and John Calvin

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Not a big fan of Lincoln. I have a feeling that the old saying, "Who ever wins the war writes the history books" has never been better applied then in Lincoln's case. I read the article but feel that even as people try to tie in Darwin and Lincoln to Calvin's 500th year celabration it is only to take focus away from the great theologian. In my humble opinion
 
Ben,

Much of my sympathies are with the South, but I have to admit that I admire Lincoln.

Alan,

I do not think this takes away in the least bit from the greatness of Calvin. This year is an anniversary of Lincoln and Calvin and, yes, Charles Darwin. I think it is in the Spirit of Calvin to recognize that we can learn something from these men. Even if we have strong feelings against them.
 
Here is a difference that you could have explored.

Calvin spends all of eternity with his Savior, while Lincoln spends all of eternity in torment.

You seem to to be suffering under the mis-aprehension that Lincolns use of a few (non-specific, non-christian) references to providence make him a christian. Far from it.

We are far more likely to see two of the last three democratic presidents in glory then that evil man.

:2cents:
 
Kevin,

You seem to have missed this quote from my article: "He did not have the theological acumen that Calvin had; furthermore, he never seemed to move past a generic civil Christianity into true faith..." That being said, there is a noticable difference in Lincoln's attitude toward Christianity from before his presidency to during the war. He turned more and more to religion and reading the Bible especially after his son Willie died in the Whitehouse. I'd like to give credit where it is due. You seem to pass judgment without really having ascertained the facts. Furthermore, you have usurped the position of God in judging those outside the church (1 Cor. 5:13).
 
Kevin,

You seem to have missed this quote from my article: "He did not have the theological acumen that Calvin had; furthermore, he never seemed to move past a generic civil Christianity into true faith..." That being said, there is a noticable difference in Lincoln's attitude toward Christianity from before his presidency to during the war. He turned more and more to religion and reading the Bible especially after his son Willie died in the Whitehouse. I'd like to give credit where it is due. You seem to pass judgment without really having ascertained the facts. Furthermore, you have usurped the position of God in judging those outside the church (1 Cor. 5:13).


And yet, his actions were worse during the war than before it...
 
We are far more likely to see two of the last three democratic presidents in glory then that evil man.

I feel like I must have missed something... How do you know that Lincoln is in eternal torment? I'm not saying he was a great theologian (or even that he was great politically), but I can't say I've ever seen anything that would indicate that he was more unregenerate that the rest of us - or that he was unrepentant. I'm under the impression that he was a Christian - although possibly not as reformed or mature as we might like - but a believer nontheless. What have you read of his that leads you to think the contrary? (I'm genuinely curious - I hope I don't come off otherwise)

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 09:37:30 EST-----

Oh, and Sven, I really enjoyed the article. Very thought-provoking - thanks!
 
We are far more likely to see two of the last three democratic presidents in glory then that evil man.

I feel like I must have missed something... How do you know that Lincoln is in eternal torment? I'm not saying he was a great theologian (or even that he was great politically), but I can't say I've ever seen anything that would indicate that he was more unregenerate that the rest of us - or that he was unrepentant. I'm under the impression that he was a Christian - although possibly not as reformed or mature as we might like - but a believer nontheless. What have you read of his that leads you to think the contrary? (I'm genuinely curious - I hope I don't come off otherwise)

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 09:37:30 EST-----

Oh, and Sven, I really enjoyed the article. Very thought-provoking - thanks!

Do you think Hitler is in heaven?
 
We are far more likely to see two of the last three democratic presidents in glory then that evil man.

I feel like I must have missed something... How do you know that Lincoln is in eternal torment? I'm not saying he was a great theologian (or even that he was great politically), but I can't say I've ever seen anything that would indicate that he was more unregenerate that the rest of us - or that he was unrepentant. I'm under the impression that he was a Christian - although possibly not as reformed or mature as we might like - but a believer nontheless. What have you read of his that leads you to think the contrary? (I'm genuinely curious - I hope I don't come off otherwise)

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 09:37:30 EST-----

Oh, and Sven, I really enjoyed the article. Very thought-provoking - thanks!

Do you think Hitler is in heaven?

He could be.
 
I feel like I must have missed something... How do you know that Lincoln is in eternal torment? I'm not saying he was a great theologian (or even that he was great politically), but I can't say I've ever seen anything that would indicate that he was more unregenerate that the rest of us - or that he was unrepentant. I'm under the impression that he was a Christian - although possibly not as reformed or mature as we might like - but a believer nontheless. What have you read of his that leads you to think the contrary? (I'm genuinely curious - I hope I don't come off otherwise)

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 09:37:30 EST-----

Oh, and Sven, I really enjoyed the article. Very thought-provoking - thanks!

Do you think Hitler is in heaven?

He could be.

But would you not be more likely to say that he is in torment?
 
I'm not sure speculation about certain folk's eternal state is altogether profitable; we should, indeed, preach the woeful circumstances of those who die outside of the Lord; but we can leave those things hidden from us a mystery and trust in the righteous judgment and gracious mercy of the Lord Jesus. God can grant faith and repentance to anyone he pleases at anytime; this should be enough for us to avoid speculations on such matters. At the very least, we should avoid speculating ill of those already passed who may have shown signs in life of some form of faith. Just a suggestion, take it or leave it.
 
He could be.

But would you not be more likely to say that he is in torment?

Most probably said the same thing about the thief on the cross.

First Calvin is lowered to comparison with Satan's favorite president and now we have the thief on the cross on the same level as Hitler. Sheesh! Shall we now speak of the similarities between Elijah and the prophets of Baal?
 
I'm not sure speculation about certain folk's eternal state is altogether profitable; we should, indeed, preach the woeful circumstances of those who die outside of the Lord; but we can leave those things hidden from us a mystery and trust in the righteous judgment and gracious mercy of the Lord Jesus. God can grant faith and repentance to anyone he pleases at anytime; this should be enough for us to avoid speculations on such matters. At the very least, we should avoid speculating ill of those already passed who may have shown signs in life of some form of faith. Just a suggestion, take it or leave it.

*properly rebuked*
 
We are far more likely to see two of the last three democratic presidents in glory then that evil man.

I feel like I must have missed something... How do you know that Lincoln is in eternal torment? I'm not saying he was a great theologian (or even that he was great politically), but I can't say I've ever seen anything that would indicate that he was more unregenerate that the rest of us - or that he was unrepentant. I'm under the impression that he was a Christian - although possibly not as reformed or mature as we might like - but a believer nontheless. What have you read of his that leads you to think the contrary? (I'm genuinely curious - I hope I don't come off otherwise)

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 09:37:30 EST-----

Oh, and Sven, I really enjoyed the article. Very thought-provoking - thanks!

Do you think Hitler is in heaven?

Probably not - but Hitler also rejected the gospel outright. Lincoln, for all of his faults, at least claimed to be a Christian - and in everything I've read of his, I haven't seen anything that would indicate that he rejected Christ. I'm not saying he was saved. I just don't know how one could claim that he was "likely" to be in eternal torment. It just doesn't fit with what the man wrote.

But I digress. As Prufrock helpfully pointed out, its not really our place to speculate to whom God shows grace.

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 10:31:48 EST-----

Threads on Lincoln = :worms:

So I see... Goodness, I had no idea. Pity, really. He was a fascinating man.
 
I feel like I must have missed something... How do you know that Lincoln is in eternal torment? I'm not saying he was a great theologian (or even that he was great politically), but I can't say I've ever seen anything that would indicate that he was more unregenerate that the rest of us - or that he was unrepentant. I'm under the impression that he was a Christian - although possibly not as reformed or mature as we might like - but a believer nontheless. What have you read of his that leads you to think the contrary? (I'm genuinely curious - I hope I don't come off otherwise)

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 09:37:30 EST-----

Oh, and Sven, I really enjoyed the article. Very thought-provoking - thanks!

Do you think Hitler is in heaven?

Probably not - but Hitler also rejected the gospel outright. Lincoln, for all of his faults, at least claimed to be a Christian - and in everything I've read of his, I haven't seen anything that would indicate that he rejected Christ. I'm not saying he was saved. I just don't know how one could claim that he was "likely" to be in eternal torment. It just doesn't fit with what the man wrote.

But I digress. As Prufrock helpfully pointed out, its not really our place to speculate to whom God shows grace.

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 10:31:48 EST-----

Threads on Lincoln = :worms:

So I see... Goodness, I had no idea. Pity, really. He was a fascinating man.

I've never seen where he claimed to be a Christian though either. He was more of a spiritualist.
 
I've never seen where he claimed to be a Christian though either. He was more of a spiritualist.

That's a valid argument. Lincoln's theology is certain up for argument. However, he wrote a LOT about the sovereignty of God - it was a subject that he really grappled with, especially during the war (as Sven points out). His writings (I think) point to a man who was contemplating and mediating on the Bible and spiritual matters. My own thought is that Lincoln was a theist during his early career, and came to a better understanding of the Bible during his presidency - especially during the war years. Of course, that's only my thought. I could be mistaken or misinterpreting.

If anyone is interested, there is an interesting Christianity Today article that talks about this. I was looking for another article I had read about this topic in college, but its unfortunately in an academic journal, and one has to pay for access. :( This article has some of the same information though. Christian History: The Puzzing Faith of Abraham Lincoln - Holidays
 
I'm under the impression that he was a Christian - although possibly not as reformed or mature as we might like - but a believer nontheless. What have you read of his that leads you to think the contrary? (I'm genuinely curious - I hope I don't come off otherwise)

You need to look into the subject a little closer. I grew up my entire life believing all that I was taught in the politically correct history text books (and of course the never biased History Channel:rolleyes:).

The fact is that Mary Todd Lincoln didn't believe that Abe was a "technical Christian."


From the link below:

"William Herndon, himself, wrote a book called Life Of Lincoln and he stated, quite forthrightly, that "Lincoln was a deep-grounded infidel. He disliked and despised churches. He never entered a church except to scoff and ridicule. On coming from a church he would mimic the preacher. Before running for any office he wrote a book against Christianity and the Bible."

According to George Edmonds in Facts And Falsehood, as recorded on page 53 of the book: "A man named Hill was greatly shocked, urged Lincoln not to publish it. Urged it would kill him politically. Hill got the book in his hands, opened the stove door, and it went up in flames and ashes. After that, Lincoln became more discreet..." Lincoln's relatives and friends testified that he "scoffed and derided religion and the Bible."


Mr. Lincoln The Infidel by Al Benson, Jr.
 
I'm under the impression that he was a Christian - although possibly not as reformed or mature as we might like - but a believer nontheless. What have you read of his that leads you to think the contrary? (I'm genuinely curious - I hope I don't come off otherwise)

You need to look into the subject a little closer. I grew up my entire life believing all that I was taught in the politically correct history text books (and of course the never biased History Channel:rolleyes:).

The fact is that Mary Todd Lincoln didn't believe that Abe was a "technical Christian."


From the link below:

"William Herndon, himself, wrote a book called Life Of Lincoln and he stated, quite forthrightly, that "Lincoln was a deep-grounded infidel. He disliked and despised churches. He never entered a church except to scoff and ridicule. On coming from a church he would mimic the preacher. Before running for any office he wrote a book against Christianity and the Bible."

According to George Edmonds in Facts And Falsehood, as recorded on page 53 of the book: "A man named Hill was greatly shocked, urged Lincoln not to publish it. Urged it would kill him politically. Hill got the book in his hands, opened the stove door, and it went up in flames and ashes. After that, Lincoln became more discreet..." Lincoln's relatives and friends testified that he "scoffed and derided religion and the Bible."


Mr. Lincoln The Infidel by Al Benson, Jr.

Interesting article with some worthwhile points, but I notice that he only quotes Lincoln's biographers. He never quotes Lincoln directly. I've read Lincoln fairly extensively, and so unless this guy shows me some works or quotes of Lincoln that I haven't seen before, I'm not really convinced of his viewpoint. Also, he doesn't cite some of his sources, which makes me uncomfortable. I'm all for debunking politically correct history, believe me, but this guy isn't doing a very good job.

Also, as a former history major, I can tell you that the politically correct thing is to say that Lincoln was NOT a Christian. Deists/Theists are all the vogue now!

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 11:12:00 EST-----

Also, let's leave Mary Todd out of it. She's just a little too...weird...for me to figure out. :scratch:
 
Lincoln, never joined a church, was never baptised, and never claimed to be a christian.

So how is it that he may be considered a christian?
 
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