A Question for Sabbath Keepers

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I think there is a misunderstanding of how the grid works.

I agree. If you read the thread linked earlier, this exact topic came up because I didn't understand the logic that says using public transportation, even in a city where that is the primary means of transportation and many people don't own vehicles, even if they are already being used for hospital workers, is breaking the Sabbath...but using electricity to heat my home and light my house on the Sabbath is fine because hospitals are already using electricity.

I don't have the answer but it seems inconsistent to me. Or perhaps we all like our electricity too much to think clearly about it?
 
I agree. If you read the thread linked earlier, this exact topic came up because I didn't understand the logic that says using public transportation, even in a city where that is the primary means of transportation and many people don't own vehicles, even if they are already being used for hospital workers, is breaking the Sabbath...but using electricity to heat my home and light my house on the Sabbath is fine because hospitals are already using electricity.

I don't have the answer but it seems inconsistent to me. Or perhaps we all like our electricity too much to think clearly about it?
Heating a home and having light to facilitate reading is not necessary?
 
I... argued that power is necessary in certain situations... yes I know someone is working for my power.
I see. Yikes. I'm sorry. I thought you were saying that because some power is necessary we can then use it for unnecessary things.
@JMC the people who you read here and elsewhere that has been influencing you, do they use electricity on the Sabbath?
That's kind of my problem. and what I'm trying to figure out. No one is influencing me except this board. So if you guys use electricity, then yes the people influencing me use electricity. This is my problem. If we say we should eat out then, logically, we shouldn't use power for unnecessary things. Yet, it seems like everyone on here does and I want to know why. Because frankly, I want to use power.
Heating a home and having light to facilitate reading is not necessary?
I think it is necessary, but proving one use of electricity is necessary doesn't prove that all uses of it are. But then again, candles could be used to read. So then should we have the convenience of a light bulb and have someone work more or use a candle. Is it easier to eat out and have someone else cook or should we premake our food.
 
Another point: It seems we conceive that the good old days of candles etc look like a plausible situation. However, I believe God has clearly ordained a progressive advancement of civilization. For example, the spread of Christianity in the Roman roads, the printers of the Reformation. And a power plant is a big component of that.
 
Doesn't sound like a logical response. Is it necessary for you to eat out on Sunday?
it is more convenient and easier for me. I said that because i thought you were saying to not worry about using electricity and if that were the case then I wouldn't worrying about eating out too. Because using electricity and eating out are the same thing.
 
it is more convenient and easier for me. I said that because i thought you were saying to not worry about using electricity and if that were the case then I wouldn't worrying about eating out too. Because using electricity and eating out are the same thing.
I wasn't the one who made the electricity argument. That is something I am staying out of for the time being. Also, in regard to the "more convenient and easier for me" comment. I guess the next question would be, does that type of response seem selfish to you? Is it all about what makes your life easier? These are just questions, not accusations.

I would continue to point to the foundation of scripture and then logic and rationality in the application.
 
I think it is necessary, but proving one use of electricity is necessary doesn't prove that all uses of it are. But then again, candles could be used to read. So then should we have the convenience of a light bulb and have someone work more or use a candle. Is it easier to eat out and have someone else cook or should we premake our food.
I do not have much to add but I see a home needing electricity as something necessary. I do not think it wise to divide up the acts of the home to necessary/unnecessary (of course something like a TV is out).

I also believe a power plant is necessary (see previous posts) because it facilitates necessary acts. I have no qualms with someone working to serve such necessary acts. See also my post that even a Christianized nation would have a power plant. Ideally with rotating teams.

Practically, there are usb charged desk lamps you can use for reading (over candles).
About that coffee.. if you are still overthinking it... cold brew? :bouncing:
 
Another point: It seems we conceive that the good old days of candles etc look like a plausible situation. However, I believe God has clearly ordained a progressive advancement of civilization. For example, the spread of Christianity in the Roman roads, the printers of the Reformation. And a power plant is a big component of that.
That's a really good point.
 
I wasn't the one who made the electricity argument. That is something I am staying out of for the time being. Also, in regard to the "more convenient and easier for me" comment. I guess the next question would be, does that type of response seem selfish to you? Is it all about what makes your life easier? These are just questions, not accusations.

I would continue to point to the foundation of scripture and then logic and rationality in the application.
It most certainly is selfish. but then so is a lot of uses for electricity. In my mind there is no difference between eating out and using electricity. They use the same scripture and the same logic. yet one is condemned on here and the other is for some reason not important to worry about. if you are going to try to convince me to worry about eating out then you should also make me worrying about using electricity
 
Eating out at commercial places is never good. (Except for the example of hospital cafeterias) And I would say that the opening of eateries may not be wholly bad because they serve emergency cases.

Power plants and using power is always a mixed bag that needs to be discerned.

There are differences. Eating out is an act. Using electricity needs to be further defined.
 
It most certainly is selfish. but then so is a lot of uses for electricity. In my mind there is no difference between eating out and using electricity. They use the same scripture and the same logic. yet one is condemned on here and the other is for some reason not important to worry about. if you are going to try to convince me to worry about eating out then you should also make me worrying about using electricity
I guess you will need to make the decision then. If in your mind you are convinced they are no different, then I am not sure there is much I can say to convince you (in addition to all the other threads on this subject). Ultimately, God is the one you are accountable to, not some random dude on the internet.
 
To be honest, I think I'm pretty convince I can use electricity and eat out on Sunday's. There is too much inconsistency to say the opposite.
 
Hey guys, I've read a little on keeping the Sabbath. Its all fairly new to me because I grew up in a home that taught that the Sabbath has been fulfilled and we are no longer to keep it. For the past couple years I have taken a more relaxed view of the sabbath (meaning, it's good for us but we don't necessarily need to obey it. That resting can be anything I find relaxing i.e. woodworking, watching tv, etc.) But after doing some reading recently, I am convicted of how I have been handling the Lord's Day. It seems scripture teaches that it should be a day of focusing on the Lord and that true rest is when we are reading scripture, focusing on things above, and fellowship with other believers. From scripture and sound logic it can also be taught that we should not eat out, for in essence we are paying someone to break a commandment! But here is where I find the dilemma.

I work in the Power grid industry. The same logic and scripture to say we shouldn't eat out can also be used that we shouldn't use the power grid. For the grid is needing to be constantly balanced. Every Watt that you use to power your lights and AC needs to be generated in that moment and managed by people. A lot of it is automated, but there is still people that we are forcing to work on the Sabbath when we turn on lights or any other device that needs electricity from the grid. Every time you use electricity from the grid you are conducting business. I would guess the first argument would be that our use of electricity doesn't change the fact that someone still has to manage the power grid, but if we used that logic we could eat out at a buffet. Do we need to all go out and buy generators to power our house and church on Sundays? Could someone help me understand this and why it's okay to use electricity but not eat out? I'm not trying to disprove or prove a point. I genuinely just want to know how to honor the Lord on His Day.
I know how much of the Sabbath "I" keep; just how much "you" keep us between you and your Sabbath-lord.
 
The electricity issue is going to keep running in circles (circuits?) if there is no appeal to a good and necessary consequence from Scripture. So I will try. In the moral law, you could not gather sticks on the Sabbath, but you could build and maintain a fire with the wood gathered the prior day (see also manna). Thus I would argue that you should not be building new power plants, mining coal, or drilling for natural gas on the Lord's Day, but keeping the grid going is permissible - adding sticks to the fire to heat food is allowable, so doing what needs to be done to keep the existing electrical grid flowing with the fuel that has been attained prior to the Sabbath seems parallel (circuits again?). The man adding sticks to keep the fire going was not punished - the man gathering sticks was. I'm not trying to stoke the debate (sorry - I can't help myself with the puns today!), but I think it needs steered back toward some type of Biblical appeal.
 
To be honest, I think I'm pretty convince I can use electricity and eat out on Sunday's. There is too much inconsistency to say the opposite.
You admit that eating out is selfish. Then, wouldn't the conclusion be to not use electricity or eat out to be consistent rather than doing both? Because selfishness is a sin. That is not in dispute.
 
The electricity issue is going to keep running in circles (circuits?) if there is no appeal to a good and necessary consequence from Scripture. So I will try. In the moral law, you could not gather sticks on the Sabbath, but you could build and maintain a fire with the wood gathered the prior day (see also manna). Thus I would argue that you should not be building new power plants, mining coal, or drilling for natural gas on the Lord's Day, but keeping the grid going is permissible - adding sticks to the fire to heat food is allowable, so doing what needs to be done to keep the existing electrical grid flowing with the fuel that has been attained prior to the Sabbath seems parallel (circuits again?). The man adding sticks to keep the fire going was not punished - the man gathering sticks was. I'm not trying to stoke the debate (sorry - I can't help myself with the puns today!), but I think it needs steered back toward some type of Biblical appeal.
This is good, but I'm afraid the same argument can be made for eating out. The burger was butchered on the previous day. There is no consequence for having someone merely flip a burger and put it on the bun. The obvious response, I guess, would be that there is an exchange on money. In which, the same argument is used for electricity. Money and energy are exchanged instead of food and money. Some might say that the money is not exchanged that day so its fine, but then we can say that we could eat out as long as we have gift cards.

I genuinely didn't mean for this turn into some stupid debate. but there has yet to be a satisfying answer as to why its not okay to make restaurant workers to work but it is okay to make powerplant, utility, and RTO workers to work. In which case I find it appalling that there are people who use electricity yet adamantly say we can't eat out.

I love the puns, keep them flowing
 
@JMC for your meditation

1 Cor5.9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—

10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

There is some necessary interaction with 'less than ideal' situations.
 
You admit that eating out is selfish. Then, wouldn't the conclusion be to not use electricity or eat out to be consistent rather than doing both? Because selfishness is a sin. That is not in dispute.
Ahh. Indeed. But to admit eating out is selfish one must also admit using electricity is selfish. Therefore they are both selfish or they are both not selfish. Therefore for now I will side with the view that they are both not selfish

@JMC for your meditation

1 Cor5.9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—

10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

There is some necessary interaction with 'less than ideal' situations.
Are you referring to people who are sinning on the Sabbath by working at Powerplants? Or people who are sinning working at a restaurant on the Sabbath?

You might say the worker at the powerplant is not sinning because he is powering necessary things. That might be true for some workers, but there are some workers at a powerplant that all they might be powering are our unnecessary use of electricity on the Sabbath.
 
Are you referring to people who are sinning on the Sabbath by working at Powerplants? Or people who are sinning working at a restaurant on the Sabbath?

You might say the worker at the powerplant is not sinning because he is powering necessary things. That might be true for some workers, but there are some workers at a powerplant that all they might be powering are our unnecessary use of electricity on the Sabbath.
Not referring to anything. You see if this verse has any relevance for you.
 
Not referring to anything. You see if this verse has any relevance for you.
I see. Well the relevance to me means that I can eat out. If people sin in order to make me a burger by working on the Sabbath then that is on them and not me. After all I can associate with anyone who sins. if I'm worried about transactions on Sunday, then I'll just buy gift cards the day before.
 
This is good, but I'm afraid the same argument can be made for eating out. The burger was butchered on the previous day. There is no consequence for having someone merely flip a burger and put it on the bun. The obvious response, I guess, would be that there is an exchange on money. In which, the same argument is used for electricity. Money and energy are exchanged instead of food and money. Some might say that the money is not exchanged that day so its fine, but then we can say that we could eat out as long as we have gift cards.

I genuinely didn't mean for this turn into some stupid debate. but there has yet to be a satisfying answer as to why its not okay to make restaurant workers to work but it is okay to make powerplant, utility, and RTO workers to work. In which case I find it appalling that there are people who use electricity yet adamantly say we can't eat out.

I love the puns, keep them flowing
You lost me here - there is a consequence. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. These arguments can go on endlessly, so to cut to the chase, if you fear God, wouldn't you rather err on the side of caution (cook your own burger at home) rather than not (pay someone to work for you on a day we all understand was a day created for physical and spiritual rest)? Let the fear of God be your guide in areas of wisdom. The goal is not to meat (you asked for more) a certain legal standard but to set aside as much of our ordinary actions so as to allow the maximum amount of time for ourselves and others to rest and remember. You going out to eat might save you time, but that cannot be said of the worker you are employing (and as someone pointed out above, not using electricity would take up more time for most of us).
 
You lost me here - there is a consequence. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. These arguments can go on endlessly, so to cut to the chase, if you fear God, wouldn't you rather err on the side of caution (cook your own burger at home) rather than not (pay someone to work for you on a day we all understand was a day created for physical and spiritual rest)? Let the fear of God be your guide in areas of wisdom. The goal is not to meat (you asked for more) a certain legal standard but to set aside as much of our ordinary actions so as to allow the maximum amount of time for ourselves and others to rest and remember. You going out to eat might save you time, but that cannot be said of the worker you are employing (and as someone pointed out above, not using electricity would take up more time for most of us).
Why is this logic not used for using electricity? When you turn on the microwave, you are paying someone to generate that energy. Instead buy your own generator and generate the energy you need at home. But, I am assuming, you don't. Why?

I'm not understanding your last sentence. Going out to eat and using electricity save time. How does that condemn one and not the other? The worker at the restaurant can make the burger faster than me just like the powerplant worker would work less than the work it would take for you to get a generator and hire a electrician to set it up.
 
Why is this logic not used for using electricity? When you turn on the microwave, you are paying someone to generate that energy. Instead buy your own generator and generate the energy you need at home. But, I am assuming, you don't. Why?

I'm not understanding your last sentence. Going out to eat and using electricity save time. How does that condemn one and not the other? The worker at the restaurant can make the burger faster than me just like the powerplant worker would work less than the work it would take for you to get a generator and hire a electrician to set it up.
I pay someone for his (necessary) work so I can do necessary act of cooking.
vs
I pay you to do the necessary act of cooking for me.
 
I pay someone for his (necessary) work so I can do necessary act of cooking.
vs
I pay you to do the necessary act of cooking for me.
So you are saying every single time you use power on Sunday it is necessary? If yes, then I'm fine and we can drop this whole thread. if not, then his work is not necessary. His coworker at another powerplant who is powering a hospital is necessary, but that does not automatically mean that his work to power your stuff is necessary. That's like saying if there is any McDonalds giving food to a starving person then we can eat at any McDonalds because one of them is doing mercy work.
 
So you are saying every single time you use power on Sunday it is necessary? If yes, then I'm fine and we can drop this whole thread. if not, then his work is not necessary. His coworker at another powerplant who is powering a hospital is necessary, but that does not automatically mean that his work to power your stuff is necessary. That's like saying if there is any McDonalds giving food to a starving person then we can eat at any McDonalds because one of them is doing mercy work.
1. No. Using TV of course is not necessary.
2. I see no conflict when the worker who powers my necessary activities, powers other unnecessary activities. Imagine electricity as a material. I buy it and use it lawfully. He may be selling it to others who use it unlawfully, but is it my problem? And I also don't have an explicit list of unlawful things the power generated is used for.
 
1. No. Using TV of course is not necessary.
2. I see no conflict when the worker who powers my necessary activities, powers other unnecessary activities. Imagine electricity as a material. I buy it and use it lawfully. He may be selling it to others who use it unlawfully, but is it my problem? And I also don't have an explicit list of unlawful things the power generated is used for.
I see. 2. makes a lot of sense. regarding 1. how then do we define what is necessary? Do I have just as much right to say someone is sinning when they eat out as when they are using a light bulb? I think Heat and AC seem necessary, but I'm having a hard time saying speakers, or light bulbs, or microwaves, are necessary. Just because our culture has made it a norm, I don't think it makes it necessary.
 
People seem to think that electricity is like some big tank that someone is filling and if you turn the spigot at your house it's not really affecting anything or causing anyone to work more (or more people to work).

That's not true. There is a direct link between your usage, and more people needing to work. If only Sabbatarians didn't use electricity on the Sabbath, it would directly correlate to fewer people working.

It's like you're saying that the hospital cafeteria has to be open to feed people in the hospital. That's a work of necessity. But if everybody else wants to walk in there and eat, resulting in the hospital needing to hire triple the number of food workers, that's perfectly fine because they are already doing a necessary activity. That's what's happening with the electricity.

I don't understand the logic.
 
EDITED PER MODERATOR

1) I am advocating for the confessional view, eating out is not lawful.
2) @JMC

Well I wrote this before the last couple posts but I think it still may be helpful to the discussion.

The electricity and eating out comparison is an apples and oranges comparison. You assume no work is needed at the power plant if you don't use the electricity which is not true. The plant must be manned by someone and adjustments made if anyone turns something on OR off - also for maintenance, outages, etc. Keep in mind our emergency services, communications infrastructure, etc all need electricity. It is also not possible to shut a power plant down for a day and restart it the next. (I say this as one who has a degree in electrical engineering with a power emphasis - though I now work in telecommunications). In the home electricity is necessary for everything from HVAC to water. Having everyone run their own generator sounds like something the Pharisees would dream up (no I am not calling you one), its far from the intent of the law. You now have private electricity, the main grid is still on, the power to your house is still provided by the grid, you can still use your self generated power unlawfully.

For clarity - how does this differ from a fuel station stop? You can prepare by filling your tank the day before it is possible to store up fuel in your car as preparation for the day. The fuel station needs to be able to provide fuel to emergency and necessary services though so it is not sinful for it to remain open and depending on your situation it may or may not be sinful to use it. It is not possible to store up the electricity necessary to power a modern home in the same way.

When you eat out you require unnecessary work, you go out of your way to do transactional business for your own pleasure - see Isaiah. By your logic everyone would need to have their own well and turn off the water main to their home for fear of a dripping sink (personal wells are not even legal in many municipalities). The eating out on the Lord's Day is a violation of God's 4th commandment not just because of your action on the day. The command was actually violated earlier that week when one failed to properly prepare for the Sabbath.

Is this an arbitrary question or is there some unnecessary use of electricity bothering your conscience? If you feel your usage of electricity is not necessary then stop, to violate your conscience is sin for you. I'm not sure how you reason that because you find difficulty applying the command as it pertains to electricity that leads you to a more liberal view of it in other areas, like eating out? Should we not look at the scripture and determine how to handle eating out, then look at the scripture and determine how to handle electricity? Rather than looking at scripture to determine how to handle electricity and then looking at electricity to determine how to handle eating out?

As for the man running the plant - his work is as necessary as any other emergency 24/7 service. He cannot know or control how people use the service and his conscience should be clear. He should seek to have a rotation so as to gather with the saints and take up the day in worship regularly, just like a emergency medical technician/doctor, police officer, etc.

Exodus 20:8-11
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Nehemiah 13:21
“Then I testified against them, and said unto them, Why lodge ye about the wall? if ye do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no more on the sabbath.”

Isaiah 58:13
If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
 
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Ok so the real issue here is that the OP wants to eat out and is trying to justify it because other people use electricity? Is that what I'm getting? If we're going down this road then no eating is necessary on the Sabbath except in very rare instances.
 
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